RE: roiting in croydon and penge

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LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:42:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig I am a bigot? Yes I suppose I am, I do have a nearly irrational dislike for fools and closed-minded people. Especially so when the person chooses to be that way. I was a criminal? When? Yes I am familiar with the methods used by revolutionary movements to foment dissent. Any moderately educated person should be, particularly if one has an interest in 20th century history. I haven't advocated their use, I have only pointed out that this is what the movements on the political fringes do. The worse conditions are, the better for them. Think of Germany in the 30s...could Hitler have won an election if things were going even moderately well? As I pointed out, the National Front is preparing an "analysis" of the riots, how much would you bet that they will be placing the majority of the blame on people of a less than creamy complexion? Yes, you should be sympathetic to those who don't work because they cannot. This extends not only to those who cannot because of a disability, but also those who cannot because they do not have the opportunity to do so. Yes I do not work, and I live in very straightened circumstances. This is due mostly to my being content with what I have. I have enough. I do not include myself in those who feel disadvantaged. I do without by choice. When I find a job I want to do, I will do it, until then, I am content to live within my means on my pension...though a little more beer money would be nice. You consistently and deliberately misinterpret what I say, you take the idea that there are people who feel cheated by modern society as a personal affront. Perhaps you would do well to quietly consider that, I doubt you will find the answers pleasant or particularly flattering, though I am sure you will find them helpful and that you will be much the better person for having done so. You keep on calling me close minded and bigoted and I asked you REPEATEDLY what your solution would be, apparently you decided to not see that, a practical solution, since you seem to believe that my idea is far to close minded... So now you are so open minded and enlightened - enlighten the rest of us what to do? Clear words and remembering it is a world wide recession and there is only a limited amount of funds available. I am very sympathetic to those who don't work because they cannot, however those aren't looting, I am not sympathetic with people who think society owes them something and they want to sit there and do nothing for it. Have you ever seen me say anything that I grudge a person help because they need it? I think I repeatedly said that I rather have a few freeloaders and scroungers benefit than see somebody who needs and deserves it go without help. What you don't realize that the people looting there are NOT the youth of Britain, it's a small and violent fraction of them, a fraction that grew up with an entitlement, the feeling that society should give them what they want, I have very little sympathy for them, though I do believe I understand where they are coming from. If you grow up on a council estate, parents haven't ever worked, none of your neighbours ever worked, they all get by, then why should you do well in school, why should you break the mold if it's all you ever see? Now times are getting harder, there is a complete power shift, the "Western empire" is falling and the 1st and 2nd world is becoming poorer and poorer, it is getting harder to feed the ever expanding fringe through, budget cuts are made. Hello, I am a foreigner in the UK, I do not live in London where it is not a problem to be a foreigner, I encounter racism on a daily basis, from the same type of people you see looting, have you looked at the interviews with them? Most of them are blaming ***** foreigners, saying they come only here for the benefits (uh really?), they are taking away their jobs, in short they are uneducated, racist twats who want a bunch of free things on top of it and a good riot. You know being asked almost daily "You're not from around here, you're a foreigner, are you here to take our jobs" does get old, I didn't take any British jobs, I came to the UK because my firm wanted me here and my partner is British, if somebody speaks several languages and is experienced in international PR and crisis management, they are welcome to my job, think any of the rioters bitching about foreigners are? You think I don't know about being poor? Serious falling out with my family, I would never sue my family for support, a personal thing and I would hate myself, so I went out and to uni on my own, you know how graciously they pay PhD students? Paid for the traveling fare to university and a bit towards the rent, I had to work 2 part time jobs next to it just to make ends meet, there wasn't much left for partying and luxuries, pretty often I ate rather frugally, wore lots of sweaters and clothes because I couldn't afford to heat more, 3 years being more than stretched and working my arse off. It didn't reduce me to stealing and looting...

PeonForHer -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:44:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DavidLee44UK and I have actually thought for longtime human rights laws restrict what we could do face the rioters with a tank and they will diperse tonite 4 young kids rode bikes down main road and then left there bikes across pavement everyone avoided them by walking in road maybe there bikes were damaged theyd think twice David, I'll say it again: this isn't about human rights, for me. It isn't about PC nor even really about morals. This is about the most effective way of restoring harmony. Tanks aren't of any use. A round from a tank will destroy any shop, which is what the authorities are supposed to be trying to prevent. These are military solutions, designed to deal with enemies who aren't amongst the rest of us. What you're suggesting is like chucking a grenade at a man's leg in order to get rid of the verruca on his heel.

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:54:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig 1. Let the banks and other large corporations share in the austerity. Surely if there isn't enough money to help the indigent, there isn't enough money to help the extravagantly wealthy. 2. Modify welfare programs to not only encourage people to better their situations, but to actively help them to do so, and to reward them for doing so. 1. Why should they? It would then be cheaper for them to relocate, and more jobs would be lost... 2. Modify them exactly HOW and where do you get the money from, we are having a recession. What is a solution? There are free classes and courses available, there are internships available, how are you going to encourage them to take them if not cutting their funding if they don't do so? Cutting their funding would create more trouble...

hardcybermaster -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:54:34 PM)
what are these riots about? Are they about the state of society as it stands at the moment? Are they about austerity measures and cuts in funding for local people? Are they about the gap between rich and poor? Are they about race, the shooting of black kid Mark Duggan? If they were about any of these things then I could understand, empathise and even sympathise. It might have started due to the shooting but that is not what it is about now. Bad upbringing? Mum or dad on drugs or violent? Shit schooling? No positive role model? A materialistic/ instant gratification world?A million other reasons/ excuses? For every one of these rioters there are thousands of other people in just as bad a place who are not hell bent on stealing,burning and killing. The rioters are fuckwits, pure and simple. Do things need to change, of course they do but this is not about change, it is lazy stupid selfish cunts who think they have a divine right at do whatever they like. They don't. ps. getting a bit fucked off with people who don't live here coming over like they know more about this country than the people who do live here

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:00:07 PM)
I have an idea or two regarding how welfare programs might be made to work better. They are based on some perceived faults in the Ontario system, as that's the one I know the details of. Outside Income Here, if you do work, you have to report your income (no problem so far). They deduct 50% of your earnings from your entitlement. The idea is to encourage you to get a job, however it has the opposite effect as one usually ends up working for the equivalent of $5/hr. Not much incentive. I would propose that one be allowed to earn however much they can, until their total income would make them ineligible for welfare, based on the standard means test. Or, at the very least a sliding scale, say 0% on the first $100 earned, then 25% on the next $200...and so on. Education Here, you can collect welfare to support yourself while you finish high school. Entering any higher education program at all, disqualifies you entirely. This is simply short sightedness. Allow a person to collect welfare based on the standard means test while they pursue their education. The tuition and other related costs would still have to be covered by the student through a student loan, but at least they would be in a position to eat and provide for their families while they did get a degree or certificate. There, a couple of workable ideas right off the top of my head. Surely, if I can come up with some, then the professionals we pay such high salaries to develop such programs could do better.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:05:22 PM)
quote: ps. getting a bit fucked off with people who don't live here coming over like they know more about this country than the people who do live here It's not a local problem, it's a global problem. Therefore the only requirement to have an opinion is that you be alive. And in the final analysis, if you don't want the opinions of non-brits, then don't go to a non-brit website to discuss it. Now hopefully you will be so fucked off by my remarks that you will fuck off entirely.

PeonForHer -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:09:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster what are these riots about? Are they about the state of society as it stands at the moment? Are they about austerity measures and cuts in funding for local people? Are they about the gap between rich and poor? Are they about race, the shooting of black kid Mark Duggan? If they were about any of these things then I could understand, empathise and even sympathise. They don't care whether you sympathise or not, HCM. We all know that they're arseholes, as well. The point now is: what's your practical solution?

Icarys -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:14:04 PM)
quote: Do things need to change, of course they do but this is not about change, it is lazy stupid selfish cunts who think they have a divine right at do whatever they like. Change can come from many different starting points. Violence is one of them, although the most potentially damaging, it can wake people up faster than any other option. It would be nice if the system worked and we all got along but it doesn't and we don't. After this is all over, if it does end soon, it will be up to the people in power to make a decision. Do they put more pressure and impose more laws because of what happened or do they take the time to learn from it. I'm betting they oppress more. If so this isn't over.

hardcybermaster -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:15:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: ps. getting a bit fucked off with people who don't live here coming over like they know more about this country than the people who do live here It's not a local problem, it's a global problem. Therefore the only requirement to have an opinion is that you be alive. And in the final analysis, if you don't want the opinions of non-brits, then don't go to a non-brit website to discuss it. Now hopefully you will be so fucked off by my remarks that you will fuck off entirely. I don't mind your comments,don;t agree with some of them but that's a discussion isn't it? but I do get hacked off when you and others seem to think you know more about my country,the people here and how they think than people who actually live here. I could read Canadian papers online until my eyes fell out but I would never really know what it was like to be a Canadian or how Canadians think until I lived there for quite a long time

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:15:56 PM)
quote: I'm betting they oppress more. If so this isn't over. Based on the majority of the replies on this thread, I'm thinking you're right.

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:18:19 PM)
That is Ontario, the system here is very very different. The global problem is that we are also encountering a global change, you can't create jobs from nothing and make them profitable. The education thing, well most countries have something based on performance, if you are academically very good, you can get grants and stipends, but you do have to apply for them. Or give student loans and if they are finishing their degrees above average, a certain amount of the loans are waved, give them a reason to study hard. Though the people who think school is for losers and they just want to go on living like the parents and everybody else on the estate won't be swayed by that. I think the idea of showing them how good they actually have it and how much worse it could be would give them a bit of a wakeup shock, also stopping the ghettos and dumping people into social housing estates might help, if they see the neighbours doing well, it might inspire them to work and break the mold, humans are largely pack animals, they want to fit in, so mix them in with the nicer parts of town and they will want to fit in.

tj444 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:19:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer The point now is: what's your practical solution? Peon,.. how can anyone come to a practical solution when no one actually knows what the problem is? As far as I can tell, there are lots and lots of theories on this from shooting an alleged gun carrying hoodlum to discontent youth to racism to general fun and free for all. Until someone actually knows for certain what the problem is, no solution can be found.. jmo

hardcybermaster -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:20:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster what are these riots about? Are they about the state of society as it stands at the moment? Are they about austerity measures and cuts in funding for local people? Are they about the gap between rich and poor? Are they about race, the shooting of black kid Mark Duggan? If they were about any of these things then I could understand, empathise and even sympathise. They don't care whether you sympathise or not, HCM. We all know that they're arseholes, as well. The point now is: what's your practical solution? peonforher I would counsel all: hold your 'instincts' and your 'common sense', however much you think they're free of PC or other political indoctrination. They're shit. They are not up to the job at hand. Get scientific. Get strategic. Most of all, start with the question of 'how do we solve this?' rather than 'Are these rioters justified, and if not, how tightly should we squeeze their testicles in a clamp?'. So folks, how do we solve the problem of these riots? Practical answers only, please. Answers that might, outside of fairyland of right or left, actually work. You have a lot to say,what's your solution? Firstly share the wealth, I am all for clever hard working people earning good money but the vast gaps in wealth cause a lot of anger. Also I did not say that I sympathised

SillyMan -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:31:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: But again, I am prejudiced for calling them "trackie bottom and hoodie wearing scum" unfortunately if you check online for pictures or watch the footage on youtube, oddly enough they all dress in a rather particular way, you might guess that 99% wear tracksuit bottoms and hoodies... You are prejudiced because you consistently refer to lower class people by using derogatory terms. It's no different than saying the Rodney King rioters were all n*****s and spooks. Look at the pictures, I didn't see many white faces...see my point? Your bigotry is revealed in your choice of words. As to the rest of what is being posted on here, well, as usual, Aswad has said it so very well. It is your "lack of comprehension of anything outside a limited frame of reference" that will ensure that you all will continue to find yourselves "lagging far behind the groups that are not constrained by all those neat boxes that ensure real humans remain inconceivable to average humans." Open your eyes, open your mind. At this point, both are tightly closed. you don't understand 'class' over here. yes there are the classes, Im very aware of that. then there are the cunts. simple. stop judging this country, you know nothing of it pD

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 4:35:16 PM)
I realize the system is different, but if i can come up with two simple workable modifications to our system that would go a long way towards helping, then surely those of you familiar with your system could as well. quote: I think the idea of showing them how good they actually have it and how much worse it could be would give them a bit of a wakeup shock, also stopping the ghettos and dumping people into social housing estates might help, if they see the neighbours doing well, it might inspire them to work and break the mold, humans are largely pack animals, they want to fit in, so mix them in with the nicer parts of town and they will want to fit in. I actually like this idea, because not only will it work along the lines you suggest, but also the other way around, it will let the well-to-do get to know some actual poor people and realize that they are just normal people. It will also help to prevent the concentration of people with similar problems, if all your friends are poor, then that is what you identify by. The root of the problem though, isn't that there are poor incentives, that was just a "workable idea". To solve the problem will take concerted effort of many governments, because the problem is based on the accumulation of almost all the wealth in so few hands. Also, the global nature of corporations has rendered them immune to government pressure, as you said earlier, they can just go elsewhere. This has made the corporations the masters of the governments. The solutions to those problems are not all that workable, or easy to determine and implement, but they must be found. Being a Sociaslist, I have my pet theories as how to go about it, but they are not the only solutions possible.

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 5:10:45 PM)
I'd love to be a socialist if there was hope that all the others are too, I don't want to be the cash cow for people who want things without working for them, that is not a workable solution because it does cause resentment. What you don't understand about here is, that the "hoodie" and "trackie" crowd for a large part doesn't want to fit in, that is part of why they are so disliked. They tend to hang around shopping centers, drinking, bullying people, causing trouble, in most cases violent, I wouldn't like them around me simply out of worry. It's not a dislike for the poor, it's actually fear of violence, it's a subculture that's quite dangerous. Oddly enough those people also tend to be very right winged, watch the footage, they all claim that the state of the country is caused by foreigners who take "their jobs" - which is a bit funny as most of them never ever had a job or actually wanted one (unless of course they would have been offered being the CEO of a company with a large salary but beware that they work). I live in a relatively affluent area, quiet and low crime, though despite that, we encounter a bit of trouble by them on weekends, because the shortest way to their estates is through our "hood" and if fences are in the way, they occasionally tear them down, bins being nicked and being overturned, stuff you left in your backyard smashed, drug paraphernalia found, not pleasant especially not if their are kids about that are small and the parents moved into the area despite higher council band taxes so the kids are secure. I haven't found that people here look down on the poor, if you are making an effort it's not mocked and you aren't ridiculed for lack of trendy clothes, but it seems to rub people the wrong way (understandably) that the people living of benefits always have enough money for the latest trainers or sportswear collection (hoodies and trackies) from certain overprized brands, fake nails, fake tan, cigarettes and booze, smartphones and iPods, but they are forever complaining how those nasty foreigners turn the country to shit. It really isn't against the poor or against the people who can't find jobs, it's against a violent subculture with entitlement issues who terrorize and are easily recognizable by the particular way they dress.

Icarys -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 5:29:15 PM)
quote: Firstly share the wealth, I am all for clever hard working people earning good money but the vast gaps in wealth cause a lot of anger. What strikes me odd is that so many of you, on this forum, "over there" think you are drastically different than people in other places. There may be differences but we are much more alike. That being said, one would have to address, why is there such a great gap? I'm betting it's the same shit that's happening worldwide. Corrupt governments playing kiss ass with special interests which in turn make the policy. It's not country specific.

Politesub53 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 5:51:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Ya know, IF this started with a protest/march, the people that organized it missed probably one of their best chances at really being heard. Imo, they should have come forward to the media and denounced the looting as criminal, encouraged people not to loot and distanced themselves from it, then put their reasons for the protest/march forward and kept doing that repeatedly. Then, imo the would have set themselves apart from the chaos and been heard by the public and the politicians at least in a real effort. They could have perhaps turned lemons into lemonade... jmo Full credit to Mark Duggans family, they did exactly that at the weekend. they didnt want the protest used as an excuse for rioting and looting.

xssve -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 6:38:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy These people are not anarchists they are merely opportunists. They are the vultures of humanity. While the forces that can cause them harm are distracted they strike. strictly for their own personal gain and nothing more. There might be a handful of miscreants that are there only to further the turmoil. I imagine most of them are male and between the ages of 16-25 the preferred age of the anarchist...lol. Uh, twice before since enclosure they've resorted to transportation - my money is on a systemic problem.

Aynne88 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 9:05:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Aynne, I notice that you like to disregard what is actually written. please reread what I wrote, taking particular notice of the bolded words. quote: As to the rest of what is being posted on here, well, as usual, Aswad has said it so very well. It is your "lack of comprehension of anything outside a limited frame of reference" that will ensure that you all will continue to find yourselves "lagging far behind the groups that are not constrained by all those neat boxes that ensure real humans remain inconceivable to average humans." Please note the use of plurals and inclusive modifiers. That is quite clearly directed to a larger group than just LadyC. Yes she is included in that group, and quite clearly the words are applicable to her and to others as well. That is why I worded it the way I did, so as to include the others as well. Anybody with a rudimentary ability to read and a desire to comprehend, would have been able to see that, and to deduce to whom I directed my remarks. Please try to understand what you are responding to before you respond, it will make things so much easier. Thanks. Arpig, try a new tactic for your slams would you? That whole "Ah...I am brilliant, snotty and condescending" put down schtick is really really getting old. I am being 100 percent serious, you do that constantly and it isn't clever and it isn't working. I understand that having someone disagree with you is chafing, but inferring that everyone that does is somehow beneath you in their comprehension of the written word is intellectually dishonest and tired. Sometimes the repetitive nature of this shit is almost comical in it's redundancy. Granted I'm exhausted, and maybe overtired is not the best frame of mind to ask you this, but still......why do you do that so often? Recycle the same tired "me brilliant, you dumbass" comeback? Wouldn't keeping an open dialogue perhaps be a better way to discuss something than a snotty fucking off the cuff comment that is so predictable it's trite and rendered meaningless by it's sheer repetitiveness?

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