RE: roiting in croydon and penge

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LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:01:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Well, education is mainly free in the UK... Quite. It isn't like there were any riots over university fees being hiked again, were there? That's university, but your basic education is available for free, unless you want to send your offspring to a fancy public school, comprehensives are completely free, as far as I'm informed, but I guess somebody who dropped out and then complains that they can only find a job with a minimum wage and that it's little better than the dole wouldn't be too interested in university anyway.

agirl -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:01:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: But again, I am prejudiced for calling them "trackie bottom and hoodie wearing scum" unfortunately if you check online for pictures or watch the footage on youtube, oddly enough they all dress in a rather particular way, you might guess that 99% wear tracksuit bottoms and hoodies... You are prejudiced because you consistently refer to lower class people by using derogatory terms. It's no different than saying the Rodney King rioters were all n****s and spooks. Look at the pictures, I didn't see many white faces...see my point? Your bigotry is revealed in your choice of words. As to the rest of what is being posted on here, well, as usual, Aswad has said it so very well. It is your "lack of comprehension of anything outside a limited frame of reference" that will ensure that you all will continue to find yourselves "lagging far behind the groups that are not constrained by all those neat boxes that ensure real humans remain inconceivable to average humans." Open your eyes, open your mind. At this point, both are tightly closed. To be honest, the thing that I noticed more was that it was mainly men, regardless of clothing or ethnic origin. Yet there were girls being interviewed in the morning at 9.30 am, drinking looted rose wine , saying what a laugh it all was... letting police and rich people know that we can do what we want, and we have*. Their Mums must be so proud. agirl

Aynne88 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:07:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: But again, I am prejudiced for calling them "trackie bottom and hoodie wearing scum" unfortunately if you check online for pictures or watch the footage on youtube, oddly enough they all dress in a rather particular way, you might guess that 99% wear tracksuit bottoms and hoodies... You are prejudiced because you consistently refer to lower class people by using derogatory terms. It's no different than saying the Rodney King rioters were all n*****s and spooks. Look at the pictures, I didn't see many white faces...see my point? Your bigotry is revealed in your choice of words. As to the rest of what is being posted on here, well, as usual, Aswad has said it so very well. It is your "lack of comprehension of anything outside a limited frame of reference" that will ensure that you all will continue to find yourselves "lagging far behind the groups that are not constrained by all those neat boxes that ensure real humans remain inconceivable to average humans." Open your eyes, open your mind. At this point, both are tightly closed. Arpig, I notice that you like to "latch on" to others words when it suits you, when Aswad wasn't referring specifically to Lady C at all, yet your quoted portion makes it seem as though he is and that you are agreeing. Not nice, that.

agirl -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:08:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Well, education is mainly free in the UK... Quite. It isn't like there were any riots over university fees being hiked again, were there? That's university, but your basic education is available for free, unless you want to send your offspring to a fancy public school, comprehensives are completely free, as far as I'm informed, but I guess somebody who dropped out and then complains that they can only find a job with a minimum wage and that it's little better than the dole wouldn't be too interested in university anyway. Yes, it's free until Uni. People under a certain income get EMA to help support your child in college but to qualify for it, your child has to:- A) attend all lectures B) Be up to date with all assignments C) Be on target with expected performance So basically you have to be quite poor to get it and your child has to be a diligent student to KEEP it. It's not a hand-out for children that are just bollocksing along avoiding the working world. agirl

tj444 -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:14:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady And YES, all texting and web access (and SMS if that is different) should have been shut down until this was under control. I think the idea that people not involved would have been pissed by the lack of technology for a couple of days so that this could get under control is nonsense. When there is a state of emergency (which I believe this qualifies) the general public's right to certain services becomes void. The greater good of protecting the masses of innocent people who were harmed by this is more important than someone being able to check their twitter account or send a text to a friend. Yes, when i took a seminar on earthquake survival (since i live in such a zone), they said should a big one hit be prepared to be without anything for 3 days (I think it would be longer). And that would mean no communication ability from cells, internet, landlines, etc in addition to possibly no water, electricity, heat, etc... So in certain circumstances, being cut off communications for a certain time is possible no matter what the emergency happens to be.. I dont see these riots as anything different than the ones Vancouver has at times after a hockey game, looters stealing and blaming hockey (win or lose).. [>:]

Aswad -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Open your eyes, open your mind. At this point, both are tightly closed. In all fairness, it's not usually a question of an open mind, but rather of a dilated one. As with fisting, the difficulty isn't finding openings. Most people have at least one that's suitable. Almost all need to be dilated through slow, repeated exposure. Some will work on that themselves, once they've taken a liking to the idea. A few will never be able to take a fist. For the rest, it's just a matter of how much both parties want it. And the same forces that are at the root of the undercurrents sweeping the world now do not want it, are deeply invested in it not happening and will take steps to prevent it. Social infibulation, to extend the analogy. And, like in Somalia, it's rare to find well adjusted citizens that are willing to forego the infibulation, or indeed even see how it could possibly be a problem. That's part and parcel of being well adjusted in a cultural environment, and a tragic element of the self-supporting nature of things. I would quote Krishnamurti on both the subject and the analogy: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Health, al-Aswad.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:22:14 PM)
I am a bigot? Yes I suppose I am, I do have a nearly irrational dislike for fools and closed-minded people. Especially so when the person chooses to be that way. I was a criminal? When? Yes I am familiar with the methods used by revolutionary movements to foment dissent. Any moderately educated person should be, particularly if one has an interest in 20th century history. I haven't advocated their use, I have only pointed out that this is what the movements on the political fringes do. The worse conditions are, the better for them. Think of Germany in the 30s...could Hitler have won an election if things were going even moderately well? As I pointed out, the National Front is preparing an "analysis" of the riots, how much would you bet that they will be placing the majority of the blame on people of a less than creamy complexion? Yes, you should be sympathetic to those who don't work because they cannot. This extends not only to those who cannot because of a disability, but also those who cannot because they do not have the opportunity to do so. Yes I do not work, and I live in very straightened circumstances. This is due mostly to my being content with what I have. I have enough. I do not include myself in those who feel disadvantaged. I do without by choice. When I find a job I want to do, I will do it, until then, I am content to live within my means on my pension...though a little more beer money would be nice. You consistently and deliberately misinterpret what I say, you take the idea that there are people who feel cheated by modern society as a personal affront. Perhaps you would do well to quietly consider that, I doubt you will find the answers pleasant or particularly flattering, though I am sure you will find them helpful and that you will be much the better person for having done so.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:23:39 PM)
My son has been to London and he has been to Kenya. In Kenya, he saw little kids eating styrofoam just to have something in their stomachs. We discussed the riots last night, and try as we might, neither of us could work up much sympathy for people who felt they were entitled to commit this kind of mayhem because they think they have it so bad. Particularly when the mayhem was just mindless destruction and thievery of luxury items.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:32:25 PM)
Aynne, I notice that you like to disregard what is actually written. please reread what I wrote, taking particular notice of the bolded words. quote: As to the rest of what is being posted on here, well, as usual, Aswad has said it so very well. It is your "lack of comprehension of anything outside a limited frame of reference" that will ensure that you all will continue to find yourselves "lagging far behind the groups that are not constrained by all those neat boxes that ensure real humans remain inconceivable to average humans." Please note the use of plurals and inclusive modifiers. That is quite clearly directed to a larger group than just LadyC. Yes she is included in that group, and quite clearly the words are applicable to her and to others as well. That is why I worded it the way I did, so as to include the others as well. Anybody with a rudimentary ability to read and a desire to comprehend, would have been able to see that, and to deduce to whom I directed my remarks. Please try to understand what you are responding to before you respond, it will make things so much easier. Thanks.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:34:35 PM)
[:D][:D][:D] That, Aswad, has got to be one of the best posts ever!!!

SaintIntensity -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:40:23 PM)
just an interesting little angle on the Manchester riots http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692793/Manchester-riots-Gangster-Dominic-Noonan-caught-on-film-during-Manchester-looting.html rioters meeting with one of the region's best-known gangster? coincidence? like fuck it is..... oh and living in the city centre I KNOW who/where/why was involved....

Aswad -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:42:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady As someone else said, you behave like a rabid dog, you will be treated like a rabid dog. While I don't dispute the statement, I would add a corollary: Treat people like rabid dogs, and they're more likely to behave like rabid dogs. And therein lies a spiral which will go nowhere fast, unless one finds a solution to the problem that approaches it from another angle. In the rest of your post, you advocate a war of escalation. If there is an underlying problem, escalation will simply entrench the parties and polarize society in a way that supports further violence that escalates without bounds. At some point, the groups that could early on have been dismissed as unreasonable will be put in a situation where the only reasonable option is to take it to the next level. Then everyone loses bigtime. quote: What should be learned from this is that the police NEED to always have the resources to deal with such a problem, even if they never have to use them. What could alternately be learned, is that if it is necessary for police to be equipped to suppress the civilian population, there is something fundamentally wrong somewhere. And no evidence supports the notion that a particular group of people is fundamentally wrong, whereas much evidence supports the notion that some groups of people are not having their needs met whenever any significant part of a society is inclined to do violence against fellow citizens and property. quote: And YES, all texting and web access (and SMS if that is different) should have been shut down until this was under control. Censorship is rarely a solution to social ills. Moving coordinating traffic away from media that can easily be monitored is also not a strategically sound choice. Health, al-Aswad. P.S.: I sympathize with the affected as much as anyone else. Just in case that wasn't clear.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:48:54 PM)
Not surprising. However, just a head's up...the Telegraph (sorry, Torygraph) has been dismissed as a valid source in this thread when I attempted to use it to back up something.

Aswad -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 12:52:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 Arpig, I notice that you like to "latch on" to others words when it suits you, when Aswad wasn't referring specifically to Lady C at all, yet your quoted portion makes it seem as though he is and that you are agreeing. Not nice, that. You spotted something I didn't, so thank you. As you say, I was certainly not referring to Lady Constanze, with whom I feel that I have a good rapport. Health, al-Aswad.

DavidLee44UK -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 1:58:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather quote: cmon enough jokes my towns on fire and peoples houses burning seriously, what the fuck do you want us to do? i'll canvas the neighbours, but i seriously doubt we'll get enough hoses to reach. so the cops shot some fucker, and now the people are rioting. good! about time! burn the place to the ground. a little chaos and anarchy is good for the body politic. and its good for the soul. stop whining about it, here's your chance to do something worthwhile. do your bit, pick up some bricks and a gallon or two of gas and join in. lol hannah so what your saying is instead of sending 500 pounds to the katrina appeal i should been selling cruises ive unhide you to respond im sure you dont believe that for one second but just like som e posts where you can't say 2 words without swearing there are others where your quite articulate funny there alkways to certain people yui think people dont have brains your doing it for the attention drop the act re hiding

PeonForHer -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:11:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 Seriously....jacking fucking stuff that isn't your from shops and homes that hard working decent people paid for and then calling it anarchy to justify it? Meanwhile selling the flatscreen to buy some blow. Yeah..anarchy my ass. Call it what you will, they are laughing their asses off at the morons that think they have any political motivation whatsoever, fuck I would bet most of these useless little wanna be gangsters don't even vote. Naivete. Amazing. The chances are that they don't know or care about whatever anyone thinks is the political motivation, or any motivation at all, behind what they're doing. And, I agree, there's a strong chance indeed that they don't vote. To me, what's unbelievably naive is the belief that these riots should lead us all to a) work out whether they're morally, politically or otherwise justified or not - they're not, that's bloody obvious - then seamlessly move on to b) how, exactly, they should be punished. Most of them aren't going to get caught and are not going to get punished. We don't have the infrastructure or the culture behind it to deal with what's happening here. There are a total of six water-cannon vehicles, in Northern Ireland, across the Irish Sea, that might be brought in. Given 24 hours notice. They're only of use against crowds that stand fast, throwing stones or other projectiles, and who don't disappear into shopping centres. The police here are scared of using rubber bullets because these can kill, and the death of one man at the hands of the police is already widely blamed as the catalyst of the riots in the first place. Considering that children as young as 11 have been involved in these riots, what are the chances that the death of a child by means of a rubber bullet will trigger off even more and bigger riots? The right wing "solution" to these riots is utter crap. No offence, Aynne, and nothing personal, but it really is dangerously naive to believe that if only the authorities were to "get harsh", that'd sort it all out. The chances are extremely high that firstly, it's not even possible for our police and legal system to "get harsh" in any way that'd be helpful and b) if it even tried, it could make things far, far worse. Don't take my word for that, take it from the leading police officers that we have here. These people are not known for being politically-correct lefties. I know the right wing prides itself on being "realistic", "down to earth", and derisive of all that's "politically correct". I don't care about that. What I do care about is the utterly stupid, short-sighted and downright dangerous view that, somehow, the bog-standard right-wing line of "catch 'em, chop their bollocks off" attitude just must be what's required here. It isn't. It's brainlessly naive to think that it is. It is NOT going to work to solve this present problem, however much some people might fondly reminisce about how it's apparently solved other problems elsewhere and in the past. I would counsel all: hold your 'instincts' and your 'common sense', however much you think they're free of PC or other political indoctrination. They're shit. They are not up to the job at hand. Get scientific. Get strategic. Most of all, start with the question of 'how do we solve this?' rather than 'Are these rioters justified, and if not, how tightly should we squeeze their testicles in a clamp?'. So folks, how do we solve the problem of these riots? Practical answers only, please. Answers that might, outside of fairyland of right or left, actually work.

Arpig -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:16:52 PM)
1. Let the banks and other large corporations share in the austerity. Surely if there isn't enough money to help the indigent, there isn't enough money to help the extravagantly wealthy. 2. Modify welfare programs to not only encourage people to better their situations, but to actively help them to do so, and to reward them for doing so.

LadyConstanze -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:20:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 Arpig, I notice that you like to "latch on" to others words when it suits you, when Aswad wasn't referring specifically to Lady C at all, yet your quoted portion makes it seem as though he is and that you are agreeing. Not nice, that. You spotted something I didn't, so thank you. As you say, I was certainly not referring to Lady Constanze, with whom I feel that I have a good rapport. Health, al-Aswad. Oh I wasn't feeling attacked by you at all or that you directed it against me, I find myself agreeing with you on most of the issues! No worries at all!

DavidLee44UK -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:23:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 Seriously....jacking fucking stuff that isn't your from shops and homes that hard working decent people paid for and then calling it anarchy to justify it? Meanwhile selling the flatscreen to buy some blow. Yeah..anarchy my ass. Call it what you will, they are laughing their asses off at the morons that think they have any political motivation whatsoever, fuck I would bet most of these useless little wanna be gangsters don't even vote. Naivete. Amazing. The chances are that they don't know or care about whatever anyone thinks is the political motivation, or any motivation at all, behind what they're doing. And, I agree, there's a strong chance indeed that they don't vote. To me, what's unbelievably naive is the belief that these riots should lead us all to a) work out whether they're morally, politically or otherwise justified or not - they're not, that's bloody obvious - then seamlessly move on to b) how, exactly, they should be punished. Most of them aren't going to get caught and are not going to get punished. We don't have the infrastructure or the culture behind it to deal with what's happening here. There are a total of six water-cannon vehicles, in Northern Ireland, across the Irish Sea, that might be brought in. Given 24 hours notice. They're only of use against crowds that stand fast, throwing stones or other projectiles, and who don't disappear into shopping centres. The police here are scared of using rubber bullets because these can kill, and the death of one man at the hands of the police is already widely blamed as the catalyst of the riots in the first place. Considering that children as young as 11 have been involved in these riots, what are the chances that the death of a child by means of a rubber bullet will trigger off even more and bigger riots? The right wing "solution" to these riots is utter crap. No offence, Aynne, and nothing personal, but it really is dangerously naive to believe that if only the authorities were to "get harsh", that'd sort it all out. The chances are extremely high that firstly, it's not even possible for our police and legal system to "get harsh" in any way that'd be helpful and b) if it even tried, it could make things far, far worse. Don't take my word for that, take it from the leading police officers that we have here. These people are not known for being politically-correct lefties. I know the right wing prides itself on being "realistic", "down to earth", and derisive of all that's "politically correct". I don't care about that. What I do care about is the utterly stupid, short-sighted and downright dangerous view that, somehow, the bog-standard right-wing line of "catch 'em, chop their bollocks off" attitude just must be what's required here. It isn't. It's brainlessly naive to think that it is. It is NOT going to work to solve this present problem, however much some people might fondly reminisce about how it's apparently solved other problems elsewhere and in the past. I would counsel all: hold your 'instincts' and your 'common sense', however much you think they're free of PC or other political indoctrination. They're shit. They are not up to the job at hand. Get scientific. Get strategic. Most of all, start with the question of 'how do we solve this?' rather than 'Are these rioters justified, and if not, how tightly should we squeeze their testicles in a clamp?'. So folks, how do we solve the problem of these riots? Practical answers only, please. Answers that might, outside of fairyland of right or left, actually work. peon i can understand the non looters rioting but the looters saying they had fun and hope it kicks off again are just boured iriots for one RESPECT and I have actually thought for longtime human rights laws restrict what we could do face the rioters with a tank and they will diperse tonite 4 young kids rode bikes down main road and then left there bikes across pavement everyone avoided them by walking in road maybe there bikes were damaged theyd think twice

PeonForHer -> RE: roiting in croydon and penge (8/10/2011 3:37:39 PM)
I think you'll ruminate on this. A comment by one of our Labour MPs in The Guardian, "Haven't the warnings been there, from as wide a range of people from Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett[1] to Rowan Williams [2]? We are reaping what has been sown over the last three decades of creating a grotesquely unequal society with an ethos of grab as much as you can by any means. A society of looters created with MPs and their expenses, bankers and their bonuses, tax-evading corporations, hacking journalists, bribe-taking police officers, and now a group of alienated kids are seizing their chance. This is not to condone but to understand. Addressing inequality is the only way we can avoid a rerun of these riots." [1 - Two leading proponents of the idea of equality and a pressure-group arguing for this. 2 - The Archbishop of Canterbury.] I do hope everyone reads the bit about 'not condoning but understanding'. I really am fed up to the back teeth of fielding the arguments of meat-heads who don't fundamentally give a toss about harmony in society and whose basic point is always 'Oh, so you want to be sympathetic to these scum, do you?'. ;-)

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