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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 10:11:44 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Excellent, a comparison between us and a country with a large population as opposed to those other countries that appear to be working but have a smaller population, some realism at last. Now what China has, is totalitarianism, they are all controlled, I guess we in the west do not want that and perhaps quite rightly so, but yet they have something we can learn from, economy based birth control could be one to stop populations spiralling out of control, the world needs it and if it weren't for the benefits governments give parents for their offspring in the west, economic birth control would be more effective. So what I am saying, is put an end to the encouragement to pop out sprogs as if there was no tommorrow and then have the public purse pay to help in their upbringing, because there is a tommorrow and an increasing population puts a strain on the dwindling resources we have left, never mind what the people have via government in monetary terms.

Parenthood should be based upon income and sprogs paid for by parents not the state who has no say in the population increase, China has that one right, government asisstance for a number of sprogs, then you are on your own if you have another.

I wonder how many of those rioting in the various countries do so not only because they can, but because they feel particularly aggrieved through lack of opportunity caused by a large population.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 10:39:22 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

I wonder how many of those rioting in the various countries do so not only because they can, but because they feel particularly aggrieved through lack of opportunity caused by a large population.

I think a good system with moderate to little control runs itself. As people increase so does spending, then jobs and so on and so on.

In my view they can be like eco-systems and will find, for the most, their natural righted self. Sure fluctuations will occur and "we" might tweak them a bit, if the shift was too great.

I realize my point may have been a little obscure... in other words...we are fucking with the system too much and just as man has fucked up and continues to fuck up it's own natural house so does he fuck up his "economical food source" for his family.

So no I don't think it's a population issue.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 8/10/2011 10:45:33 AM >

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 10:49:41 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I couldn't agree more. The one child policy worked, like it or not.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Excellent, a comparison between us and a country with a large population as opposed to those other countries that appear to be working but have a smaller population, some realism at last. Now what China has, is totalitarianism, they are all controlled, I guess we in the west do not want that and perhaps quite rightly so, but yet they have something we can learn from, economy based birth control could be one to stop populations spiralling out of control, the world needs it and if it weren't for the benefits governments give parents for their offspring in the west, economic birth control would be more effective. So what I am saying, is put an end to the encouragement to pop out sprogs as if there was no tommorrow and then have the public purse pay to help in their upbringing, because there is a tommorrow and an increasing population puts a strain on the dwindling resources we have left, never mind what the people have via government in monetary terms.

Parenthood should be based upon income and sprogs paid for by parents not the state who has no say in the population increase, China has that one right, government asisstance for a number of sprogs, then you are on your own if you have another.

I wonder how many of those rioting in the various countries do so not only because they can, but because they feel particularly aggrieved through lack of opportunity caused by a large population.


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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 11:55:11 AM   
Arpig


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Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

The Chinese are socialists, and yet they have a booming economy. They figured out that socialism is not the same as poverty, they made a plan, and they stuck with it. It worked.
It didn't work. Yes the economy is booming, but it is doing so on a basis of complete disregard for the welfare of many of the people. China is mind numbingly blatant example of everything that is wrong with the pursuit of wealth for its own sake.They have riots and unrest in China as well.

As rare as it is that I agree with Butch, he said something important:
quote:

social programs that are designed to help people become productive again
Our present social programs are focused on maintenance. Give them enough to stay alive and no more. We need to find a way of designing our social programs to both provide an acceptable life, and an encouragement to do better. I'm not sure how to do this, simply providing a greater income would be counter productive. Welfare rates are too low, of that there is no question, but how do we help, not just encourage, but actively help them to better their lot?

Anybody have any idea?


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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 1:59:49 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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If you dont pursue wealth, do you think it will just come to you?

Do you think that it should?


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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 3:32:09 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Missed the point sanity. Of course you must pursue wealth, but to do so just for the sake of more is the problem. There is a concept I think we all need to grasp: Enough.

Go after wealth, and when you have enough, you stop. There is no need to have one more car, or a bigger car, or a 10-room mansion for a family of 4. There is a culture of excess, and that is a huge part of the problem.


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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 4:02:11 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Anybody have any idea?

I had this somewhat long answer to this question but collarme locked up on me and *poof*.

Pay into your own social security fund and every person gets to keep all of what they do except a portion which would go to help those who couldn't help themselves...all others would be made to work..actually even those that were disabled would be job placed...

People laying around all day with nothing to do while collecting checks would stop. Have them do community work.

Something along that line. First though, hose down all government offices and get those in order.


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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 4:03:58 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		FR

As a matter of interest, why do people assume that anyone, anywhere, has or will have the power to enforce whatever ideas they have about how society should work? Why do they assume that this power to enforce their programmes will be there in the future? In the UK, the government pretty bloody blatantly doesn't have that power at present.

I'd suggest: don't take comfy and reassuring assumptions for granted, folks. This is the root cause of the problems we're having in the UK now.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 4:19:12 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I agree Arpig, there is a culture of excess and I do agree it is responsible for much of what we come to negatively experience, as the excess of some affects others as perhaps is being seen.

But let's examine excess, what is it if it is not waste, for having something for the sake of having and not using is waste, but isn't that typical of what we have come to know as capitalist ? In that the belief appears to be why take enough when we can just as easily take it all, what's the point in taking it all, so others cannot benefit, for surely that is pure out and out selfishness.

Perhaps the problem is selfishness, the good of the one as opposed to the good of the many, but to consider the many, isn't that seen as socialism ?

But in these riots and the looting that takes place during and after, the looters are thinking about themselves not others, so perhaps the rot in society has spread to every echelon, no one is immune from the very top of the chain right down to the bottom, we are well and truly steeped in selfishness.

Perhaps the capitalist system has a canine mentality, eat it why it is there and not think of the future until it happens, for just like a dog, we know we can obtain sustinance somewhere, quality irrelevant as long as it tides us over until we again need to feed and then we go looking about for what there is to be had ad finitum.

I wonder what happened to the pioneer mentality, you know, the early settlers that tamed the land to provide sustinance for the future, what happened to that mentality, where did it go wrong ?

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 5:03:20 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		There's been great mixed debate on Facebook tonight over the following statement issued by Bristols finest, Massive Attack... well known for their political views.
Just though i'd post it hear to see what you guys thought.

they wrote>>

"In context with the complicit support of the government, the banks looted the nation's wealth while destroying countless small businesses and brought the whole economy to its knees in a covert, clean manner, rather like organised crime.

Our reaction was to march and wave banners and then ball them out. These kids would have to riot and steal every night for a year to run up a bill equivalent to the value of non-paid tax big business has 'avoided' out of the economy this year alone.

They may not articulate their grievances like the politicians that condemn them but this is absolutely political. As for the 'mindless violence'… is there anything more mindless than the British taxpayer quietly paying back the debts of others while contributing bullets to conflicts that we have absolutely no understanding of?

It's mad, sad and scary when we have to take to the streets to defend our homes and businesses from angry thieving kids, but where are the police and what justice is ever done when the mob is dressed in pin stripe."


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 8/10/2011 5:04:26 PM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 5:41:01 PM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
People in pursuit of wealth employ other people though.

You cant have those luxury items if there arent people making them. Cap wealth and you cap employment, you also cap the tax base.

By extension, you therefore cap the poor when you cap wealth

Sloth, thievery, envy and jealousy are probably worse sins than greed anyway

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Missed the point sanity. Of course you must pursue wealth, but to do so just for the sake of more is the problem. There is a concept I think we all need to grasp: Enough.

Go after wealth, and when you have enough, you stop. There is no need to have one more car, or a bigger car, or a 10-room mansion for a family of 4. There is a culture of excess, and that is a huge part of the problem.



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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 5:43:01 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Whats odd is how your mobs, destroying businesses and employers and neighborhoods and cities one house at a time, really expect more government freebies will be the result.

Theyve gone mad because theres no more money, and they think that somehow rioting will help. In the short run they can smash and grab a few electronics, some jewelry and some booze but in the long run they are slitting their own throats

"Its because of the rich people and the businesses..." 

Is there still time, will they move the 2012 Olympics? Or simply cancel them?



There are only a few people on here stupid enough to use an interview with two drunken teenage girls as evidence. This is nothing more than criminality driven by greed. Many of those already before the courts have decent jobs, so bang goes the "social deprivation" argument. Still, no doubt you Popeye, ABM et al would have stopped it all with a few well aimed shots.  The drivel you are quoting as an excuse for the riots isnt what the majority of the people in the UK think. Most will say the same as me, greed and criminality.

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 5:47:26 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Heres an interesting OpEd column that claims that feral people are to blame

Its rather long, I am posting but a tiny snippet

quote:

Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters

<snip>


If you live a normal life of absolute futility, which we can assume most of this week’s rioters do, excitement of any kind is welcome. The people who wrecked swathes of property, burned vehicles and terrorised communities have no moral compass to make them susceptible to guilt or shame.

Most have no jobs to go to or exams they might pass. They know no family role models, for most live in homes in which the father is unemployed, or from which he has decamped.

They are illiterate and innumerate, beyond maybe some dexterity with computer games and BlackBerries.

They are essentially wild beasts. I use that phrase advisedly, because it seems appropriate to young people bereft of the discipline that might make them employable; of the conscience that distinguishes between right and wrong. They respond only to instinctive animal impulses — to eat and drink, have sex, seize or destroy the accessible property of others.

Their behaviour on the streets resembled that of the polar bear which attacked a Norwegian tourist camp last week. They were doing what came naturally and, unlike the bear, no one even shot them for it.

A former London police chief spoke a few years ago about the ‘feral children’ on his patch — another way of describing the same reality.The depressing truth is that at the bottom of our society is a layer of young people with no skills, education, values or aspirations. They do not have what most of us would call ‘lives’: they simply exist. Nobody has ever dared suggest to them that they need feel any allegiance to anything, least of all Britain or their community. They do not watch royal weddings or notice Test matches or take pride in being Londoners or Scousers or Brummies.


Not only do they know nothing of Britain’s past, they care nothing for its present.


They have their being only in video games and street-fights, casual drug use and crime, sometimes petty, sometimes serious..



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html#ixzz1Ug1YoKcv



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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 6:13:14 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sanity, I used to read the Daily Mail on a regular basis but dont care much for Max Hastings or Melanie Phillips with the hang em and flog em views.

Some details of the first court cases. If you look at the photos you will see how young and how white, many of the looters are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024396/London-riots-2011-Primary-school-worker-postman-boy-11-looters-court.html

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 6:19:42 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Anybody have any idea?


We cannot save all no matter how good a program may be so these programs must be based on progress and results. Those that fail to use the resources properly should be removed from the program and a waiting period enforced before they may re-enter. This may help to keep the programs affordable and target those that really want to be self sufficient.

To me the most important part of any program will be a comprehensive evaluation upon entering the program. From this evaluation a plan can be customized to allow the enrollee to become a tax paying productive citizen.

This plan may include child care, education, and housing as examples but also require drug testing and birth control while in the system.

Time limits and reasonable progress to goals will be expected to stay in the plan.

It would be initially expensive but I believe in the long run it would save money.

Butch

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 6:27:08 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Missed the point sanity. Of course you must pursue wealth, but to do so just for the sake of more is the problem. There is a concept I think we all need to grasp: Enough.

Go after wealth, and when you have enough, you stop. There is no need to have one more car, or a bigger car, or a 10-room mansion for a family of 4. There is a culture of excess, and that is a huge part of the problem.


why should anyone stop when you think they have enough wealth?

Buffet is one of the richest men in the world, so is bill gates, they keep on being greedy bastards going after more and more wealth...

but you think they should have stopped long ago..

yet,.. they give or have charities that benefit from their insatiable greed..

and if these two, and others like them follow thru with their previous statements,.. they will give most or all of it (billions of $$$) away to charities when they die..

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 6:39:23 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Sloth, thievery, envy and jealousy are probably worse sins than greed anyway
Greed is attached to 3 of those a lot of the time.

quote:

By extension, you therefore cap the poor when you cap wealth
Depends on which wealth you're talking about. Large corp perhaps?

I haven't checked the numbers on government but I would imagine they rank right up there as well. Combine that with small business and corporations don't look so hot.

http://www.sba.gov/advocacy/7495/8420

See even with large corporations putting a lot of small businesses out of work, they still rank and are the backbone of America and have been since we started all this shit... I would imagine it's the same way in the UK and a number of countries. I don't know this for sure but I'd be willing to put down on it. Yet, politicians over here tout big corp as the money makers.

These riots are caused by basic human wants and needs. Security in all facets of life. They're being deprived. They lashed out.

I hate to use this but it seems fitting even if it's a little cliche. Push an animal into a corner to where it feels threatened and it has no escape and it will most likely lash out.

If you care enough to keep your arm and in general about it's life you'll treat it with respect. If not, don't blame the beast.


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 6:54:38 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

There are only a few people on here stupid enough to use an interview with two drunken teenage girls as evidence. This is nothing more than criminality driven by greed. Many of those already before the courts have decent jobs, so bang goes the "social deprivation" argument. Still, no doubt you Popeye, ABM et al would have stopped it all with a few well aimed shots.  The drivel you are quoting as an excuse for the riots isnt what the majority of the people in the UK think. Most will say the same as me, greed and criminality.


This may well be the common view in the UK. And for all I know it may even be correct. I don't have any problem agreeing that greed and criminality motivated some of the rioters.

If we accept this explanation, then the questions arise: What is to be done about it? Where did this generation of lost youths motivated by 'greed and criminality' come from?

Children and youths aren't born greedy and criminal - so how did this generation end up like this? Where did the kids get these values from? Who inculcated these values in the kids?

In short, is blaming 'greed and criminality' a way of avoiding a deeper look at the circumstances that have created a sub-culture of alienated angry youths? How does it help us avoid re-creating these flaws in the next generation? Are these kids taking their values from a larger society that has excluded them from its benefits?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/10/2011 6:58:52 PM >

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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 7:39:41 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Have them do community work.


Institutionalized slavery is your solution?

It seems not to have been without its share of problems, historically.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 7:46:29 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'd suggest: don't take comfy and reassuring assumptions for granted, folks. This is the root cause of the problems we're having in the UK now.


I've known this since I first started work at 17. I've also known that the effective tax rate in Norway is over 90%, and that the gap up from a comfortable income to an income level where one can set aside meaningful amounts of money for a rainy day is exceptionally wide. When our social security system collapses in a couple of decades (unless we get more immigrants), it will be a shitfest the likes of which has not been seen since the Finnish civil war, which was perhaps the bloodiest in European history.

The problem with self-balancing á la nature is that it's usually cataclysmic.

In some perspectives, that can be a boon, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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