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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 3:50:12 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		But if capitalism is seen to be failing and it is, as a world population ever increasing kind of puts pressure on the requirements for capitalism to work and not be attacked, what is the way forward, a sure as, out and out communism doesn't work either, but there are elements in both that are good, so where to go next ?

I know what about an amalgamation of the two, for sure it can be worked, prosperity without greed perhaps and poorness without poverty, lower the bar for the highest earners and raise the bar for the lowest.

And from my point of view, a person who comes from a 'make do and mend' mentality, learn to live with what we have, products designed to last and a service network that provides parts for products to be repaired, as increasingly in my capacity as a repairman I am seeing more and more products becoming available that have no spares back up, the broken product is a waste of materials and resources, energy thrown away.

Right now I can see the western world accelerating towards poverty and those in the world that have seen us, what we have and there they want protest against their governments to have the same not understanding what we have is not for long term gain, but quick thrill entertainment and enrichment of the few.


Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money. ~Cree Indian Proverb

Perhaps we all need to just slow down and live life as it is without seeking the next thrill to make life more than it is.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 4:04:10 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Its the socialist aspect that has failed, the rioters have every socialist program there is but the rich cant be squeezed any more without eliminating them and the coffers are run out.

So now the anarchy begins.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 4:28:53 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its the socialist aspect that has failed, the rioters have every socialist program there is but the rich cant be squeezed any more without eliminating them and the coffers are run out.


So now the anarchy begins.



?

What socialist programs, are we talking about the same country here ?

And furthermore, please define socialist program, as if you are referring to what in antiquity was called alms to the poor and needy, that concept is hardly new but the result of compassionate wealthy people in the past.

But if you are talking about the UK, please understand there has been a war of words against the young for a long time, they have been denigrated as all sorts from hoody to chav ( council house and violent, an example of police slang used to describe the few, but taken as to mean anyone in a council house or even people who display a certain youth culture dress code). Now, if it was, or indeed is you are a member of a particular group in your society that was always on the receiving end of bad publicity, tell me, how would you feel, particularly if you also could not find a job and had to watch those with flaunting their wealth ?

It is simple, capitalism is failing what next will fill the void, dictatorship and by that a totalitarian regime via special measures implemented in times of strife ? Tell me what constitutes a time of strife, when will it be someone dares to vomit the word terrorist at what can be a freedom fighter and also a political activist, for sure politics is at work with these riots, but it is those in power that define the terms.

We have to be very careful of what we ask our governments to do, especially in these times with increased threat from persons unknown that kill for ideaology.

But the riots have happened elsewhere in Europe, and the Middle East for much the same reasons, the question is where next, the US, possibly, but if the US, there will be massive bloodshed, because you all have guns. Perhaps what is happening elsewhere you over there should be thinking hard ?

For you all know it is coming, these boards alone inform us things aren't too rosy in the US either.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 8/10/2011 4:31:09 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 6:44:49 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

So now the anarchy begins.
Yes. And it will continue and grow, and spread, and get more violent until something is done to fix the basic inequity of the present system.

If you insist that nothing need be done, then you are accepting that there will always be people with nothing, with no stake in your society. People with nothing have nothing to lose, and will resort to violence to get what they want.

It's your choice, it's up to you. Do something to change the way things are going, or barricade your door and hope the mob goes for your neighbour's place.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 7:44:55 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Whats odd is how your mobs, destroying businesses and employers and neighborhoods and cities one house at a time, really expect more government freebies will be the result.

Theyve gone mad because theres no more money, and they think that somehow rioting will help. In the short run they can smash and grab a few electronics, some jewelry and some booze but in the long run they are slitting their own throats

"Its because of the rich people and the businesses..." 

Is there still time, will they move the 2012 Olympics? Or simply cancel them?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

So now the anarchy begins.
Yes. And it will continue and grow, and spread, and get more violent until something is done to fix the basic inequity of the present system.

If you insist that nothing need be done, then you are accepting that there will always be people with nothing, with no stake in your society. People with nothing have nothing to lose, and will resort to violence to get what they want.

It's your choice, it's up to you. Do something to change the way things are going, or barricade your door and hope the mob goes for your neighbour's place.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/10/2011 7:45:46 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 7:48:08 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Yes. And it will continue and grow, and spread, and get more violent until something is done to fix the basic inequity of the present system.

If you insist that nothing need be done, then you are accepting that there will always be people with nothing, with no stake in your society. People with nothing have nothing to lose, and will resort to violence to get what they want.

It's your choice, it's up to you. Do something to change the way things are going, or barricade your door and hope the mob goes for your neighbour's place.

Nice post.

I personally believe this is but the start as well. I also believe this will spread to other countries and may just snowball into a serious global issue. Having let's say a few countries rioting within short periods may as well be the primer to push others over the edge. It's already showing signs.

I think people around the world are beginning to realize that everything is going to continue to suck while the politicians talk about change and do nothing to implement it.

Riots around the world since 2010



< Message edited by Icarys -- 8/10/2011 7:52:21 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 7:52:19 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

So now the anarchy begins.
Yes. And it will continue and grow, and spread, and get more violent until something is done to fix the basic inequity of the present system.

If you insist that nothing need be done, then you are accepting that there will always be people with nothing, with no stake in your society. People with nothing have nothing to lose, and will resort to violence to get what they want.

It's your choice, it's up to you. Do something to change the way things are going, or barricade your door and hope the mob goes for your neighbour's place.




No, it will not spread and grow. It will shortly cease and all will be forgotten.

There have and will always be people with nothing, with no stake in society. People with nothing and have nothing to lose, that will resort to violence to get what they want.





_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 7:52:56 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Capitalism is not failing…in fact it is expanding throughout the world. It is the only economic system that matches the desires of the individual and that is its strength. It is the only system that has made wealth possible for anyone in any social situation that is willing to work and sacrifice to attain it.

I’m afraid Sanity is right on this one. Capitalism produces wealth for both the individual and a responsible government that allows it to function properly. The problems arise from well meaning but poorly managed programs to help the disadvantaged. In every society there are those that are a burden on their friends, family, and government. They take advantage of these benefits and riot in the streets when they are threatened.

I believe in social programs that are designed to help people become productive again but not those that encourage dependence on the hard working tax payers dollar.

Capitalism works best when coupled with democracy and a society dedicated to hard work and independence.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 7:57:32 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I'm bored today, I wish I had some of what you are smoking domi.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 8:24:32 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		But do what? Isn't it just a matter of too many people and not enough resources? Capitalism IS failing, it is a system that only works when there is plenty to go around. The Chinese are socialists, and yet they have a booming economy. They figured out that socialism is not the same as poverty, they made a plan, and they stuck with it. It worked. I don't like many of the things they did to make it happen, but it really did work. The question is whether people in capitalist countries are willing to give up their cowboy mentality, what's in it for me mentality. I don't see that happening, at least in the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

So now the anarchy begins.
Yes. And it will continue and grow, and spread, and get more violent until something is done to fix the basic inequity of the present system.

If you insist that nothing need be done, then you are accepting that there will always be people with nothing, with no stake in your society. People with nothing have nothing to lose, and will resort to violence to get what they want.

It's your choice, it's up to you. Do something to change the way things are going, or barricade your door and hope the mob goes for your neighbour's place.



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 8:32:26 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

what's in it for me
Ultimately this is the key. Too many seem to think that society exists to defend what you have. Society exists to ensure the well being of its members. We're not achieving that with our present methods. We need to do something different.
We need to share the wealth of the world more equitably.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 8:34:32 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

The question is whether people in capitalist countries are willing to give up their cowboy mentality, what's in it for me mentality.

Capitalism works and has worked just fine for years. The reason for it's "failing" is the greed that's ran rampant and unchecked for decades. No government would be stable under the weight of so much corruption.

It's not the system that's failing but the people in power who have failed it.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 8/10/2011 9:30:22 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 8:36:38 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

It's not the system that's failing but the people in power who have failed it.
That's a point worth considering.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 8:44:26 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

This is what happens when so many are so dependent on government handouts. Plus the failure of multiculturalism.



...well, that is your answer to everythng.


USA credit rating downgraded? Must be those damn socialists and multi-culturalism.

Didn't get my cereal this morning? Must be those damn socialists and multi-culturalism.

Wealth creation being ring fenced, yet austerity is necessary, so take everything you can away from the poor, they then get so touchy that the shooting of an unarmed man by police sparks off riots across the country? Must be those damn socialists and multi-culturalism.

The question that hasn't been answered is why so many rioters? Good grief, last night they rioted in Gloucester. Imagine if riots began in areas with high unemployment but spread to the Hamptons. Something else is happening beyond the usual suspects. The social contract has been broken.

(in reply to ArizonaBossMan)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 9:19:35 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		It is a system that breeds corruption. People go into positions of power with good intentions and come out corrupted
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

The question is whether people in capitalist countries are willing to give up their cowboy mentality, what's in it for me mentality.

Capitalism works and has worked just fine for years. The reason for it's "failing" is the greed that's ran rampant and unchecked for decades. No government would be stable under the wait of so much corruption.

It's not the system that's failing but the people in power who have failed it.



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 9:29:31 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

It is a system that breeds corruption. People go into positions of power with good intentions and come out corrupted

People are corrupt, not systems. If you had honest people in power (which is hard to find but they are there..even if at times I feel like ALL of them are corrupt) you wouldn't have some of the problems like we have and other countries have.

If anything it's too much power that breeds illness, not the system itself. If the government was for the people instead of for itself and whoever will line their pockets the system works fine.

I think a riot, as horrible as they are, is one way a system attempts to right itself.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 9:37:54 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
[reality check]

China was squalid under socialism for generations

Then they introduced capitalism and their economy took off like a rocket

[/reality check]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

But do what? Isn't it just a matter of too many people and not enough resources? Capitalism IS failing, it is a system that only works when there is plenty to go around. The Chinese are socialists, and yet they have a booming economy. They figured out that socialism is not the same as poverty, they made a plan, and they stuck with it. It worked. I don't like many of the things they did to make it happen, but it really did work. The question is whether people in capitalist countries are willing to give up their cowboy mentality, what's in it for me mentality. I don't see that happening, at least in the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

So now the anarchy begins.
Yes. And it will continue and grow, and spread, and get more violent until something is done to fix the basic inequity of the present system.

If you insist that nothing need be done, then you are accepting that there will always be people with nothing, with no stake in your society. People with nothing have nothing to lose, and will resort to violence to get what they want.

It's your choice, it's up to you. Do something to change the way things are going, or barricade your door and hope the mob goes for your neighbour's place.




_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 9:45:20 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
As if there are no socialist programs in the United States

What utter ignorance

Its Americas socialist entitlement programs that are testing our budgetary limits

Its what we call the third rail here

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...well, that is your answer to everythng.


USA credit rating downgraded? Must be those damn socialists and multi-culturalism.

Didn't get my cereal this morning? Must be those damn socialists and multi-culturalism.

Wealth creation being ring fenced, yet austerity is necessary, so take everything you can away from the poor, they then get so touchy that the shooting of an unarmed man by police sparks off riots across the country? Must be those damn socialists and multi-culturalism.

The question that hasn't been answered is why so many rioters? Good grief, last night they rioted in Gloucester. Imagine if riots began in areas with high unemployment but spread to the Hamptons. Something else is happening beyond the usual suspects. The social contract has been broken.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 9:55:40 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I am really not interested in this conversation taking a nasty turn, but I don't agree. China was squalid until the government built the infrastructure to allow industrialization. Their system could hardly be called capitalist, too much state control. It is a hybrid at best. In any case, I think it makes sense to look closely at a system that is working.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


[reality check]

China was squalid under socialism for generations

Then they introduced capitalism and their economy took off like a rocket

[/reality check]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

But do what? Isn't it just a matter of too many people and not enough resources? Capitalism IS failing, it is a system that only works when there is plenty to go around. The Chinese are socialists, and yet they have a booming economy. They figured out that socialism is not the same as poverty, they made a plan, and they stuck with it. It worked. I don't like many of the things they did to make it happen, but it really did work. The question is whether people in capitalist countries are willing to give up their cowboy mentality, what's in it for me mentality. I don't see that happening, at least in the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

So now the anarchy begins.
Yes. And it will continue and grow, and spread, and get more violent until something is done to fix the basic inequity of the present system.

If you insist that nothing need be done, then you are accepting that there will always be people with nothing, with no stake in your society. People with nothing have nothing to lose, and will resort to violence to get what they want.

It's your choice, it's up to you. Do something to change the way things are going, or barricade your door and hope the mob goes for your neighbour's place.





_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of ... - 8/10/2011 9:59:12 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Actually there is "real" capitalism at work in China today

Maybe we should try it

The Brits too

Get the government here to back off a little bit...

Introduce some REAL capitalism and watch our economies take off too


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 140
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