RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (Full Version)

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Icarys -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 7:57:35 PM)

quote:

Institutionalized slavery is your solution?

Don't be so obvious, Aswad.

I think slavery is a bit harsh but in truth based on our current government (USA) who is the slave? What about those that pay in and never take any help and still have to pay?

Depends on the situation but If someone is on a government check and is able to work, why not put them to work so they can actually help society instead of giving a handout. If it comes from there on individual social accounts like I said earlier, let them sit home or be given an option to continue to work. If they choose not to work and instead take time off.. It's on their account that the checks are being drawn.

It's a rough idea and surely one that would have to be thought thoroughly through. Not something that could be worked out with a day or so on a forum. Sure though, people getting a check having to work for it? What was I thinking.




tj444 -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:04:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
I've known this since I first started work at 17. I've also known that the effective tax rate in Norway is over 90%, and that the gap up from a comfortable income to an income level where one can set aside meaningful amounts of money for a rainy day is exceptionally wide. When our social security system collapses in a couple of decades (unless we get more immigrants), it will be a shitfest the likes of which has not been seen since the Finnish civil war, which was perhaps the bloodiest in European history.

Where do you get that 90% from? links? studies? Where?




Icarys -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:05:21 PM)

quote:

When our social security system collapses in a couple of decades (unless we get more immigrants), it will be a shitfest the likes of which has not been seen since the Finnish civil war, which was perhaps the bloodiest in European history.

A clue that societies are similar no matter where you live.

I would bet my left nut that if someone were so inclined they could research and gather information on 10 nations of the world, concerning social economic issues and you'd find some striking likenesses.

You might find other disturbing similarities as well.




Icarys -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:06:55 PM)

quote:

Where do you get that 90% from? links? studies? Where?

That's a phenomenal amount.




Aswad -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:16:09 PM)

~fr~

Spending and waste and not saying stop is just an artifact of the treadmill.

That's how nature works. Trees grow to a uniform height that is well above their optimal height. If most trees grew to optimal height, the ones that grew taller would have an advantage. And so all the trees have to grow that tall to avoid being the one reasonable tree that thus becomes unsuccessful in the evolutionary arms race. This nullifies the advantage for all the trees, while all of them have to keep spending energy on maintaining their height at the absolute limit of survivability.

Anyone that thinks humans are fucking things up unnaturally with consumption should revisit their idea of what is natural. Either that, or put their money where their mouth is and marry a stupid guy with no charm or charisma or looks, that also happens to be a couch potato in his mother's basement, with no particular interests, hobbies or skills. The fact of the matter is that humans mate based on several factors, including standard of living and status symbols. This is an arms race, and you can't win. Every contestant in the recent olympic games beat what was the record in the 60's for the field they competed in, yet the olympic games weren't any more enjoyable this time around.

In the mating game, it's the same. Some hook up for other reasons, but most hook up because hundreds of millenia of evolution are telling them what gives them a leg up on the competition, and millenia of patriarchy have influenced the strategies employed, and ensured that financial success is a huge factor in deciding on a partner to pursue for women, which means men and women are both stuck giving their all to establish something that becomes a routine and later somewhat addictive, only to keep up with the field. Nobody ever really gains a lot of ground. And this isn't even taking into account such things as memetics, parameter diversity or the agricultural revolution with its domestication of the human species and immense impact on selection.

You can get off the treadmill, of course. That's choosing to be selected against. And for a quick lesson in how it works to collectively get off the treadmill, study the Cold War and consider that the monument to the possibility of trust has more bugs per cubic foot of concrete than any other man made structure. It would be an aid to sleep not to consider the implications for science, genetics and technology in the long term.

Religions have tried to fight the destructive aspects of this since the dawn of spoken words. Secular societies have tried to change humanity just as much in other ways. But the outcome is fixed: with the abilities we now have, we will turn it all into a Dolcett comic writ large, no objections voiced until the final frame. The proverbial Tower of Babel is the Halocene Era, and curtains is going to- most likely- be the Halocene Extinction, one of the Great Five extinction events in Earth history. Then nature will spawn a new ecosystem and arrive at another attempt,nwith humans having been yet another species to go under the heading of epic fails.

It's a solvable problem, but it's not trivially solved.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:20:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Where do you get that 90% from? links? studies? Where?


CIA World Fact File. Some data from our national statistics beurau, but the fact of the matter is that the tax code is so complex that nobody has a good idea how our taxation model works, including the people responsible for maintaining it. The effective tax level is insane, and it's been one of the reasons people have tried by any and all means to get rid of the Labor Party the past 20 years or so.

Health,
al-Aswad.




tj444 -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:22:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Where do you get that 90% from? links? studies? Where?

That's a phenomenal amount.


yes, isnt it tho? He says its the effective tax... I found this chart on individual tax rates of various countries (Norway is about 37%? or so) but I would like to see how he gets 90%?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg

whoa, look at that, Belgium is at about 55%? hmmm..




tj444 -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:24:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Where do you get that 90% from? links? studies? Where?


CIA World Fact File. Some data from our national statistics beurau, but the fact of the matter is that the tax code is so complex that nobody has a good idea how our taxation model works, including the people responsible for maintaining it. The effective tax level is insane, and it's been one of the reasons people have tried by any and all means to get rid of the Labor Party the past 20 years or so.

Health,
al-Aswad.

well, i dont see how anyone could survive if they paid 90% of their earnings in tax, or WTF they would even bother working at that.




Aswad -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:25:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

What was I thinking.


Something obvious and bordering on the naïve.

It's also a pretty common thought, which fails to take into account the number of people that can make a better living off crime, or the cost of riots, or any of the other issues we pay to make disappear. It's not so much a matter of helping anyone out as it is a matter of the economics of a society being bound by pragmatics, regardless of right and wrong.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:31:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

well, i dont see how anyone could survive if they paid 90% of their earnings in tax, or WTF they would even bother working at that.


Effective tax.

The income tax can be as low as 15% at the existence minimum level. It's about 35% at a lower class level. It caps out at around 50~60% or so, although there have been times where one could theoretically be taxed more than 100% (not that it ever occured). That used to be a standing joke: "Well, it was all fine until that last raise..."

VAT is 25% on most goods. Then there's the environmental taxes on elecricity, electrical goods, travel, gas and so forth.

Generally, the list gets pretty long by the time you get to the things you actually have a choice in.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Icarys -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:50:03 PM)

quote:

Something obvious and bordering on the naïve.

Didn't I just say the same sort of the same thing to you?

Your innards are showing. I can see where this is going. [:D]

quote:

It's also a pretty common thought, which fails to take into account the number of people that can make a better living off crime, or the cost of riots, or any of the other issues we pay to make disappear.


It doesn't take them into account because I would think most people would probably know what we'd do about those things..they're being done already. There is no perfect system.

People steal..they go directly to jail..they do not pass go and they do not collect $200 dollars. If you choose not to follow societies rules there are consequences as always.




Marini -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:50:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

What was I thinking.


Something obvious and bordering on the naïve.

It's also a pretty common thought, which fails to take into account the number of people that can make a better living off crime, or the cost of riots, or any of the other issues we pay to make disappear. It's not so much a matter of helping anyone out as it is a matter of the economics of a society being bound by pragmatics, regardless of right and wrong.

Health,
al-Aswad.



A certain percentage of people are actually better off in jail.
I can think of many situations, in which people would be safer and better off in jail.

There have been many stories in which people have committed petty crimes, so that they could go to jail, and have somewhere to eat, medical and dental care.

Thank you for your input, Aswad.




ArizonaBossMan -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:57:50 PM)

So many with their hands out begging.




Marini -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 8:59:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

So many with their hands out begging.



You make me laugh.
lol




tj444 -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 9:01:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

well, i dont see how anyone could survive if they paid 90% of their earnings in tax, or WTF they would even bother working at that.


Effective tax.

The income tax can be as low as 15% at the existence minimum level. It's about 35% at a lower class level. It caps out at around 50~60% or so, although there have been times where one could theoretically be taxed more than 100% (not that it ever occured). That used to be a standing joke: "Well, it was all fine until that last raise..."

VAT is 25% on most goods. Then there's the environmental taxes on elecricity, electrical goods, travel, gas and so forth.

Generally, the list gets pretty long by the time you get to the things you actually have a choice in.

Health,
al-Aswad.

I tried to find the 90% tax you claim from that source and found everything but that. People here are expected to back up claims like that by providing links to their source.




Icarys -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 9:08:21 PM)

quote:

I tried to find the 90% tax you claim from that source and found everything but that. People here are expected to back up claims like that by providing links to their source.

I suspect he's in the neighborhood with all of the "hidden" taxes but 90% I think is a little too high. It's possible he went with the highest possible factors based on the top taxable rate (50-60%) but even those numbers seem like a high starting point for the base.

I should say:
Maybe he can show us the example he came to that number with.




tj444 -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 9:15:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

I tried to find the 90% tax you claim from that source and found everything but that. People here are expected to back up claims like that by providing links to their source.

I suspect he's in the neighborhood with all of the "hidden" taxes but 90% I think is a little too high. It's possible he went with the highest possible factors based on the top taxable rate (50-60%) but even those numbers seem like a high starting point for the base.

Maybe he can use the example he came to that number with.


yes, of course, its just like the tax in most countries, you pay individual income tax and a miriad of others, depending on your situation and spending. I cant see 90% at all tho. And you know that old saying about statistics... [:D]




Marini -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 9:35:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But if capitalism is seen to be failing and it is, as a world population ever increasing kind of puts pressure on the requirements for capitalism to work and not be attacked, what is the way forward, a sure as, out and out communism doesn't work either, but there are elements in both that are good, so where to go next ?

I know what about an amalgamation of the two, for sure it can be worked, prosperity without greed perhaps and poorness without poverty, lower the bar for the highest earners and raise the bar for the lowest.

And from my point of view, a person who comes from a 'make do and mend' mentality, learn to live with what we have, products designed to last and a service network that provides parts for products to be repaired, as increasingly in my capacity as a repairman I am seeing more and more products becoming available that have no spares back up, the broken product is a waste of materials and resources, energy thrown away.

Right now I can see the western world accelerating towards poverty and those in the world that have seen us, what we have and there they want protest against their governments to have the same not understanding what we have is not for long term gain, but quick thrill entertainment and enrichment of the few.


Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money. ~Cree Indian Proverb

Perhaps we all need to just slow down and live life as it is without seeking the next thrill to make life more than it is.


Capitalism could in theory work, but people almost always "forget" to mention the greed factor.
Why have so many corporations outsourced so many jobs?
They wanted to maximize the "profit margin", so sending our jobs to 3rd world countries is better than making less profit and keeping the jobs locally,right?

Now, we have few jobs, and the topic is "How are we going to CREATE jobs?"
This wonderful global economy is really working isn't it?
HA!

What a wonderful and thoughtful post!




kdsub -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 9:39:11 PM)

quote:

As rare as it is that I agree with Butch


This surprises me...I often find myself agreeing with you...I just don't comment when I do.

Butch




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Riots continue to spread in UK/ is this a means of protest? (8/10/2011 9:54:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Missed the point sanity. Of course you must pursue wealth, but to do so just for the sake of more is the problem. There is a concept I think we all need to grasp: Enough.

Go after wealth, and when you have enough, you stop. There is no need to have one more car, or a bigger car, or a 10-room mansion for a family of 4. There is a culture of excess, and that is a huge part of the problem.



Unfortunately you discount human nature too much. Those with the drive to pursue wealth will never have "enough". Stopping that quest would be their death. And those who are the most successful in that quest also tend to be very generous, so stopping when there is enough would end their charity as well.




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