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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/10/2011 7:54:25 PM   
Sanity


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Exactly - leftists were highly motivated to get out and vote in this election.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321

What is more interesting is the percentages.  Even the GOP wins show a decrease is support from 2010, with three of the elections falling in the 52%-48% margin- and these were GOP winners by ten points or more last fall.  There is a signal there. 



I disagree with the signal you see.

2010 was a presidential election and so more people voted.

It is known that not as many people show up for other elections. It could very well be that some of those who voted republican in the 2010 election did not bother voting. It could also show that additional democrats registered and voted for this election.

You could be correct as well.


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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/10/2011 9:19:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321

What is more interesting is the percentages.  Even the GOP wins show a decrease is support from 2010, with three of the elections falling in the 52%-48% margin- and these were GOP winners by ten points or more last fall.  There is a signal there. 

I am worried by two things... the partisanship (I don't think winners from either party are going to represent all of their constituents as opposed to who voted for them) and the outside money paid by outside organizations of both flavors (Americans for Prosperity is not by any stretch of the imagination a dem-related organization....)





Dont let the percentages fool you. Its a handpicked group in the most vulnerable districts, with out of state agitators and money pumped in. It was a desperate effort that fell short, not at all representative of the general attitude.

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 7:39:35 AM   
kat321


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Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		I disagree, mostly because of what I see  going on on the ground here from supporters of both parties.  Outside money has been coming in but it was assumed to only be union money by the right- and most of the press spent time reporting on that.  There is less mention of the input of Wisconsin Club for Growth, Wisconsin Family Action, and Citizens for a Strong America which all supported GOP campaigns.  Because of the new rules regarding PACs, we can only assume spending - think last count was 13 million- we'll never know what it was on either side.  As a local, I can tell you the left in my area spent money on direct mail; the right on television ads.  I am not saying either side did not put money into both activities; I am reporting that in my district, I was more likely to get mail from dem candidates and see television spots from GOP candidates.  Volunteers (at least I think they were volunteers) from both sides knocked on my door multiple times wanting to discuss who I should vote for during the week leading up to the election. 

Also, in WI you do not need to register as a democrat or republican, so saying more of one 'targeted' group or the other came out is irrelevant.  Yes, you can say that certain citizens identify with one side or the other more, but the fluidity of independents is what defines our state politics. 

The comment on 'vulnerable' districts is odd.... again, possibly because you are not on the ground here.  For instance, the King/Hopper race in which the dem upset the GOP incumbent was not a vulnerable seat....it has been held by the GOP for decades. It isn't the targeting of people there. It's their actual displeasure with Hopper's representation of his constituents.

What I think really went on here, which is under-reported, is- yes, more people came out to vote, but it wasn't as much because of targeted efforts of outside money as the partisans from either side want us to think.  In the past six  months I have seen full communities (granted small ones) reexamine a lot of their beliefs.  One of the towns I live by has been a GOP stronghold for literally generations.  However, this particular GOP legislature's extreme stance on unions took them by surprise- many community members being impacted negatively by the collective bargaining decision.  Talking to these folks in February and March you could hear the the disillusionment in their voices.  They could not believe that their party- the party of their parents and grandparents- had done this to them.  Their town came out for the democrat this time... not because of outside money, but because of what they saw as the lack of representation by their elected official. While Madison and Milwaukee- maybe even Green Bay might be susceptible to the influences of outside money, many in the heartland have had to do a lot of soul-searching in recent months.

I have been at the capitol for work a lot in the past six months or so, and I believe WI now is a microcosm of national politics; this is not a good thing  For a state that I have always seen as politically engaged in the process of governance, I am now sorely disappointed.  While it was like that when I lived here before it certainly is not now.  Individual legislators are rude, arrogant and largely uninterested in the needs of their constituents.  When delivering research from their locales, if the results are not what they want to hear, I have been pushed out of offices mid-meeting. In other words, this group of legislators do not care what their constituents want unless it matches the views held by those of the party.  Policy seems to be dictated from outside the desires of the people right now... on both sides of the aisle.

If the parties continue to behave in this manner and the discontent holds, the same turn-out will be likely in 2012.... and we won't need outside money to have it happen.


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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 8:18:06 AM   
cuckoldmepls


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Status: offline 		This really backfired on them. You know why? Because the only people who support unions private or public are people who belong to them or have a spouse who does.

Not only that 2 democrats are up for recall elections next week. I'll bet one of them goes down.

Unions are dead. Why should public sector employees have taxpayer funded retirement plan that no one else has. If Social Security is all that everyone else has, then it should be good enough for them.

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 8:24:06 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		mm recalls after less than a year in power, but its the dems who failed... yeah ok
LMAO

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 12:09:52 PM   
kat321


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

This really backfired on them. You know why? Because the only people who support unions private or public are people who belong to them or have a spouse who does.

Not only that 2 democrats are up for recall elections next week. I'll bet one of them goes down.

Unions are dead. Why should public sector employees have taxpayer funded retirement plan that no one else has. If Social Security is all that everyone else has, then it should be good enough for them.



Ummmm.... the WI public unions had already conceded to paying into their pensions and health care plans before the new legislation was introduced, so your argument falls short there.  While I am positive there are still some WI public unions which would like to get rid of that language, it is largely a dead issue.  The protests were about getting collective bargaining on other issues back in play.  For instance, a few school districts have decided to, under the new legislation, add to the working hours of employees without compensation.  Since the legislation was passed there have also been modifications in health safety policies in corrections institutions that potentially put public workers at risk.  Practices such as these will continue in many districts if the legislation is not modified- and these are generally practices that would not be tolerated without worker input in public employment.

The recall on the dem side is about (or should be, IMO) these issues as well as the fact that local constituencies are angry that the people they elected are representing national issues of party rather than the local issues of those who put them in office in the first place.  I also note that I cannot claim that everyone involved in the GOP recall efforts holds my perspective.

By the way, one recall of a dem senator was held the same week of the recall primaries that were forced by fake GOP candidates running against the candidates that were on the dem slate this week.  That dem retained his seat. The other two are next week- and with the commercials on tv- the conservative PACs are spending a bundle.  I have not yet seen one spot for the dem incumbents, only for the GOP..... So much for outside cash only being union-based.



The re

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 12:29:30 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Wisconsin public unions did not concede and agree to this bill on their own. Many unions around the state such as the Milwaukee teachers union and the Milwaukee County union rushed through their contracts before the bill was signed to gaurantee that they would not have to pay a fair share.

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 12:31:24 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		So, the boys saved a bunch of money on this one (their stated goal) hah?

How much do the recall elections and other incendentals cost the state?

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 12:37:37 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
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Status: offline 		More than they've saved, obviously.
That's fiscal conservatism: say you're going to save money, then piss it away on bullshit that doesn't even do your own party any good, and call anybody who points this out a traitor who hates America...

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 12:39:58 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		I guess you could blame the tax and spend democrats for any costs to the state. They are the ones who started recall campains against the 6 republicans. After getting their butts handed to them on Tuesday they still want to try and recall Scott Walker. I say go for it. Bend over dues paying union members from around the country.

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 12:43:16 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I guess you could blame the tax and spend democrats for any costs to the state. They are the ones who started recall campains against the 6 republicans. After getting their butts handed to them on Tuesday they still want to try and recall Scott Walker. I say go for it. Bend over dues paying union members from around the country.

While we're on this "tax and spend" line: how do the Republicans raise the funds they spend? You know, historically?
"Don't tax and ask for an overdraft extension so you can keep spending"?

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 3:02:58 PM   
kat321


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Wisconsin public unions did not concede and agree to this bill on their own. Many unions around the state such as the Milwaukee teachers union and the Milwaukee County union rushed through their contracts before the bill was signed to gaurantee that they would not have to pay a fair share.


The Budget Repair Bill was introduced in limited scope on February 11 with the full details coming out over the following weeks.  While I cannot speak for all public unions, the teachers were on record as willing to make the salary concessions the week before the release of the bill.  As discussed and cited in a previous thread, the teachers in Milwaukee did not push a contract through before this bill, they had a signed four-year contract (with three years remaining) before the bill was introduced- and well before Walker's election to office. I know you wanted them to reopen their contract and cut their salaries on their own (as workers in the private sector I am sure choose to do on a daily basis), but they were under no obligation to do so after they saved the district something like 50 million in negotiations the previous go around.

And yes, if you want you can bring up the fabrication that they are the only district suffering financially, but I can give you at least two dozen districts-though there are probably more- that didn't rush contracts through that have either not replaced retirees, shortened school days, let non-certified staff go, cut transportation services, or a host of other money saving measures because contrary to Walker's promise, the contributions to pensions and health care didn't cover the 800 million that the state cut from education.  Sure, these districts (and the Walker administration) can say that under the new legislation these schools didn't have to fire any teachers- which looks great in the press.  Of course the press and the Walker administration rarely ask the next questions because they don't want to hear those answers.

As recently demonstrated, the legislation simply gives a new opportunity to deal unfairly with labor; increasing hours with no compensation and relaxing bargained-for safety measures since public employees now have no say over their work environment.  It seems the unions were right in seeing the writing on the wall outside of monetary issues... it was the public who was deaf as to why they gave up on salary issues to try to keep their other bargaining rights.

The problems are only beginning- at least in education.  Colleges and universities in the state have been swamped with requests to confirm the "completion of a state approved program."  These documents are filed when teachers seek a license to teach in other states.  I've spoken with some (though admittedly not all) certification officers who say the ones leaving are their strongest graduates; the ones most likely to demonstrate that their work in the classroom results in measured student learning.  The powers that be wanted  long-time teachers who cost more to retire under this legislation, but in actuality, the best of the new cheaper crop of labor are the ones leaving.  Further, the reported numbers of teacher candidates who demonstrate the strongest measures of potential success with students are leaving education programs right and left for other opportunities... It only took six months for the best and brightest to decide that they didn't want to teach in Wisconsin. 

Again, I can speak best in educational policy, not other areas, but from this vantage point, it seems it wasn't the unions that shot themselves in the foot in their response to this legislation or with this recall, as another poster argued.... It was the Walker administration who didn't care to see the long term effects of the legislation on areas other than the budget.

Or maybe, though I would hate it to be so, the far left conspiracy theorist were right (both the right and left have those....)  Maybe it is true that this administration wants to make public education so bad that the only choice is to privatize all forms education..... But that's another thread.

< Message edited by kat321 -- 8/11/2011 3:05:55 PM >

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 8:31:53 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Kat, If your version were true, the teachers union in Milwaukee would have re-opened their contract after the budget bill was passed. They refused to do so. 354 teachers were layed off because da union refused to re open that contract and give any concessions. So much for the brothers and sisters in da union.

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/11/2011 9:37:43 PM   
Flakiki


Posts: 1
Joined: 6/11/2011
Status: offline 		Unions are not there just so workers can say "Yes, Massah" to whatever the corporate overlords demand.

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/12/2011 5:47:05 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321

What is more interesting is the percentages.  Even the GOP wins show a decrease is support from 2010, with three of the elections falling in the 52%-48% margin- and these were GOP winners by ten points or more last fall.  There is a signal there. 



I disagree with the signal you see.

2010 was a presidential election and so more people voted.

It is known that not as many people show up for other elections. It could very well be that some of those who voted republican in the 2010 election did not bother voting. It could also show that additional democrats registered and voted for this election.

You could be correct as well.


Unless you've changed the constitution 2010 wasn't a Presidential election....But, maybe in your world it was? Who knows......

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/12/2011 6:04:36 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Wisconsin public unions did not concede and agree to this bill on their own. Many unions around the state such as the Milwaukee teachers union and the Milwaukee County union rushed through their contracts before the bill was signed to gaurantee that they would not have to pay a fair share.


It never ceases to amaze me that someone who retired with union benefits is anti-union.

Let me ask you Servant, if you were so bothered by unions why didn't you quit and go to work for a non-union company?

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/12/2011 6:13:08 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Well he is just trying to foist his communism on us.

But I sorta am growing with this, I have a mortgage and I expect him and the state of wisconsin will back me to the hilt and even get out of staters and famous names to back me up on this, I dont want to pay that much for my mortgage, fuckem and the bank should open it up and allow me to trample all aspects of it, rather than agree to different payments only.

It is funny to see how many so called 'conservatives', or 'teabaggers', or 'republicans' are really communists at their core.

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/12/2011 6:20:57 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		How many times do I have to explain that I am not anti union ? As a union member I payed a portion of my health care benefits and am still doing so as a retiree. I also funded my own 401K. I see nothing wrong with state employees also paying a portion to get these benefits. Why are they the only ones to get a free ride on the backs of all of us ?

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RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/12/2011 6:26:23 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and they agreed to it. end of joke. but you communists and anti-union people want them to reopen all aspects of that contract.

the issue is and always was the revote every year and the removal of collective bargaining power.

nothing fucking else.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Dems fall short in Wisconsin - 8/12/2011 6:37:41 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		They agreed to it only because they were forced to agree to it. Why else are national unions here in Wisconsin ? They want the dems back in power to reverse the collective bargaining bill and go back to the status quo.

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