RE: a philosophical question. (Full Version)

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HeatherMcLeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 9:18:43 PM)

"It's simple Hanners, just go to jail"

I don't think I like you anymore Bob




TheHeretic -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 9:21:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

what would you do if you found yourself in a similar position one where if you wish to be able live by your beliefs, you must act contrary to those beliefs?



At that point, Hannah, I would take a deep breath and remember that the freedom to live as you believe comes with success.  Unless you think the revolution will sweep the world, and bring on the paradise in no time at all (it won't), or are willing to martyr yourself to the longterm cause (believing that further incitements will bring on further repression, spurring the movement into the next generation and ultimately to a better world for your grear-great grandkids), my pick would be to play the game for the world at large, until you get to a place where you can play any game you want.




LadyPact -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 9:46:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
so after all that wordy background and introduction, here is the question:
what would you do if you found yourself in a similar position one where if you wish to be able live by your beliefs, you must act contrary to those beliefs?


Really?

Haven't you picked up anything?

We are different people, Hannah.  You see so many things as being about 'right now'.  I see these things as gaining ground.  It's over time, not overnight. 

Should they be 'right now'?  Yes.  Probably.  Still that isn't really the way of the world, is it?  You once told Me that history bears no significance.  Yet, it does.  What is the worth of your anger or anarchy without it?

One of the most difficult lessons that I ever learned was that, if I wanted any validity to My beliefs, that I must accept that others had beliefs of their own.  That I was no more or less than anyone else and even if I felt it was total shit, if I ever wanted anyone to respect what I believed, I must in turn respect them as well. 

Is it easy?  No.  At the same time, I can ask no more of others than I ask from Myself.




tj444 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 9:46:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
so after all that wordy background and introduction, here is the question:
what would you do if you found yourself in a similar position one where if you wish to be able live by your beliefs, you must act contrary to those beliefs?


People do it all the time, Hannah. I dont believe in taxes but I believe in jail even less. The best that I can do is take advantage of what the tax law allows to keep my taxes to the least amount.

I value my privacy and my right to it. If I want something tho, sometimes there are trade-offs.
So there are times when I have to deal with rules and laws that require that I provide certain private info about myself,.. like when i want to open a bank account or buy a property or even at times to use my debit/credit card.. I must show my ID. But I limit things like that to the least that I must give, so I would not give out my SIN to anyone, even a bank (unless the account paid interest which is taxable).

Life isnt perfect like each of us want it to be. I just try to keep things in my life as close as I possibly can to the way I want it to be.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 9:47:34 PM)

"It's simple Hanners, just get rich"

I think I like you!




gungadin09 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 10:00:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
what would you do if you found yourself in a similar position one where if you wish to be able live by your beliefs, you must act contrary to those beliefs?


Let me tell you about my compromise. For a long time i wanted to be a chef. i worked. i read cookbooks. Finally i got a job in a really good restaurant, and it changed my life. i got to work with top people from all over the world, and the way that they worked. It blew my mind. The attention to detail, the level of focus, the willingness to endure pain, stress, low wages, and, let's face it, downright abusive working conditions, all for the sake of this idea of perfection that they were always pursuing without ever quite reaching it. At that level, there was a commitment to excellence that seemed almost religious. It was like they were dedicating their lives to something outside themselves. i wanted to live my life like that.

So i went for it, but i was never quite good enough. i was the only one there without a culinary degree and years of experience working in five star restaurants. i was out of my depth. i managed to hold my own, but i never made it past pantry. They told me they wouldn't put me on hot line without more experience. So i left, to get it, at a series of fairly mediocre restaurants.

The problem was the work ethic that had served me so well at the really good restaurant was a source of frustration in the bad ones. Initiative and hard work became liabilities in jobs where everyone was lazy, and stupid, and incompetent, and liked it that way. i dunno. i was taught a way to work that was like a philosophy. Not living up to a certain standard seemed to me like compromising that philosophy. And i was being expected to do that, or risk losing my job, or at least alienating the people i worked with.

For the longest time i just beat my head against the wall. i would not compromise. i didn't want to sell out, settle for the path of least resistance. And i was right. i KNEW i was right. i was, damn it. Do you have any idea how many bosses i've had who tried to get me to dip the fish in lemon juice to hide the fact that it was spoiled, or to sell the creme brulees that got left out all night, or any of the other hundred sketchy things they do that were all so easily preventable if any of the people involved had just been doing their jobs in the first place? i'm amazed more people don't die from food poisoning.

But taking that attitude put me in constant conflict with the people i worked with, for years, as well as ruining my peace of mind. And yet for years and years i just kept at it. During that time i never held a job for more than 6 months without quitting in frustration. i kept hoping the next job would be different. Eventually i realised that if i wanted to keep my job (and my sanity) i would have to play the game. Give up on my beliefs, bite the bullet, and just do whatever the fuck i was told, no matter how wrong. That's where i am now. i don't care anymore about standards or doing a good job. i just clock in, work my shift, and then go home. No more bending over backwards to get it right. No more expecting excellence, or even competence, from the people i work with. i turned off the part of me that cares about what i do, and i'm just trying to get by without ruffling any feathers. And i hate myself this way. It's like i threw away the best part of me--the part that was willing to fight for what i thought was right. i want the old me back, the passionate, uncompromising, driven me. But i'm terrified that that person won't be able to keep a job, or her sanity. So i guess i sort of sold out.

But there is method to my madness. i want to play the game and do well enough for long enough to open my own place. i'm not a brilliant cook, but i could easily do better than 95% of what's out there, simply because the majority of what's out there is so bad. So that's my new goal. Find something simple, like a coffeehouse, and do it really, really well; do it my way, by my standards. i have the knowledge to do something simple well. i have the integrity not to compromise on what's important. i know how to work hard. i have an idea of what i want. i just have to get there. And for now that means compromising. i hope that when the time comes i'll be able to stop compromising, that it won't be ingrained in me, that i will be able to turn it off.

i hope that answered your question. In a nutshell, i'm willing to temporarily compromise my beliefs provided that the net effect is good. i don't know if that means i've sold out, or just grown up.

pam







HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 10:14:43 PM)

quote:

I wanted any validity to My beliefs, that I must accept that others had beliefs of their own.
that's why i face this dilemma. it didn't exist when i could dismiss the beliefs of others.




LadyPact -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 10:27:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

I wanted any validity to My beliefs, that I must accept that others had beliefs of their own.
that's why i face this dilemma. it didn't exist when i could dismiss the beliefs of others.

If you are to find growth; You can not.

I know.  It sucks.  Big, huge, flopping donkey dick.

Finding your own path means examining all of the options.  Making a conscious decision.  One not based on external factors.

Evaluate yourself.  You're trying, but you're not doing this.

You do not always choose wisely.




Termyn8or -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 10:49:46 PM)

"Let me tell you about my compromise. For a long time i wanted to be a chef. i worked. i read cookbooks. Finally i got a job in a really good restaurant, and it changed my life. i got to work with top people from all over the world, and the way that they worked. It blew my mind. The attention to detail, the level of focus, the willingness to endure pain, stress, low wages, and, let's face it, downright abusive working conditions, all for the sake of this idea of perfection that they were always pursuing without ever quite reaching it. At that level, there was a commitment to excellence that seemed almost religious. It was like they were dedicating their lives to something outside themselves. i wanted to live my life like that. "

Given the nature of this thread, I will respond here. I know I owe you a mail, but here is where it's at right now.

I don't know to what is owed that "failure". It mat just be that they saw you as an underling because of being too good looking or shortness of stature or who the fuck knows. If you see it as a failure it is. My career is a failure. I have had stellar moments that blew people's minds, but that is a different field. And realize that even though I was among the best, I am worth shit now.

One thing to remember,
When you're climbing to the top,
Is that you know the way back down,
And remember what they told you,
About how the show goes on,
How can you come back,
If you never gone away,
How can you sing without a song ?

Did you ask them where you should go to school ? More important, did you ask them where THEY went to school ? Could you not get into them ? I can get into Harvard if I go to the right preschools, I mean colleges but, you know what I mean. And of course have the money. But then dregs get grants to go to Puget Sound all the time. It is a different thing. But that is neither here nor there.

But there is one thing. Some of the most exclusive universities in the world (including here) only have to take who they want to take. But most of them are for sale, so enough money can get you right in. Look at the libraries, gymnasiums and so forth at universities built and named after say US Presidents. Look at who paid for them and you will know exactly for whom they worked. There is no question, there is no doubt, and it is public record.

And people think I am full of shit. OK, when the revolution comes,  they go to the left side.

LOL

T^T

ETA : I meant nothing negative about Puget Sound nor any of it's alumni. I meant that people get grants to go anywhere sometimes, with private scholarships and shit. If I were going to put down a school it would be where most of our politicians went.




Edwynn -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:05:01 PM)


quote:

i am an anarchist. i believe that all laws and governments are inherently an evil thing and should be done away with. however my anarchism isn't so much a political philosophy as the political expression of my personal philosophy.

i believe that the rights of the individual are supreme, nothing takes precedence over them, and anything that abridges them is wrong. no person or organization, individually or collectively, has the right to dictate how i live my life or what i do. it is my right to do anything i want to. you have the same rights as well, so my exercising of my right to do as i please ends the moment it interferes with your right to live the way you want to. in practical terms i have no right to take your tv unless you wish to live without it.


The millions of Suns (of the many billions of stars) that have come and gone prior to this one we revolve around currently (along with who knows how many other biology supporting systems elsewhere at this time), and that will come about by millions yet after this one we sustain our current life from at present is long gone, have all the interest in the universe on this very question, I am sure.

Good prospect that our life (by way of  some happenstance play trick of the universe) doesn't depend on 'good questions' or anything.









HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:12:52 PM)

quote:

You do not always choose wisely.
you think?

i'm sorry, i'm not dismissing what you say at all ladyp, nor what anybody else is saying, i am taking it all in and trying to understand how i can apply things to myself. i do however want to keep the discussion light hearted, there is no reason self examination can't involve a laugh or two along the way




HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:20:11 PM)

thank you pam, for sharing that. it can't be an easy thing to admit. my first reaction was that i'm not talking about a work ethic, but i know that what you are describing goes deeper than that. you wouldn't have written it if it were not very relevant.

i'm going to have to think about what you wrote very carefully.

i may have to follow suit and make a major compromise, i hope i don't. i have given up a lot to keep true to my beliefs, and i would hate to have to abandon them and have it all be in vain.




HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:27:02 PM)

edwynn, i'm sorry. i don't have the first fucking clue what you are talking about. whatever it is, it went way the fuck over my head.

want to try again without the sun and stars metaphor?




gungadin09 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:27:44 PM)

For many, many years it was who i was, how i defined myself. Losing it now it like losing my identity. But, maybe it was just an illusion all along. i don't know if i'm better off now, or not.

pam




HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:30:39 PM)

oh fuck. jesus pam, i'm sorry it came to that for you. i really am. it's exactly what i don't want to have happen to me.




littlewonder -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:33:24 PM)

which is more important to you?

Pride?

or

Getting what you need?






Edwynn -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:34:22 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Finding your own path means examining all of the options.  Making a conscious decision.  One not based on external factors.



I hate to break this to you, but what you proclaim as "external factors" are with us every day, for those in any world I am aware of. Let's start with the Sun, nature, etc. even before we get to humans.

Anything outside of your own spirit and body is an "external factor," and anybody in any relationship to the world and especially to other humans would be subject to such influence.

It's designed in, else you wouldn't be in the position you find yourself in now.








HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:37:42 PM)

integrity.




tj444 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/10/2011 11:59:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

integrity.

maybe you need to review your view of govt. I personally think we have too much govt but I do think we need some govt. Without govt it would be like living in the 17th century under a dictatorship ruled by kings and queens (or worse). Talk about a lack of personal freedom.. Without govt you would not have gotten an education, there simply would not have been schools. Govt does help some people that need help, that is what social programs are for, to help the poorest. Govt is not perfect and things have gotten out of wack in certain areas.. but i cant say i could live easily or freely in a country without govt..

There are some countries I would absolutely not go to.

Somalia
Somalia is an extremely poor state that is well known for anarchy, corruption, lack of government and starvation. Travelers are warned against going there, and for excellent reasons. The self-proclaimed “Independent Republic of Somaliland” is as lawless as it is possible to be. Pirates patrol the waters around the coastline armed with AK-47s and regularly seize craft and hold crews to ransom. Thousands have been killed in the north of the country due to rivalry between criminal factions, while the capital, Mogadishu, is carved up between clans and warlords. Not even well armed US Marine forces are willing to go there. Add ethnic cleansing of 'undesirable elements' to the mix, and you can clearly appreciate why this really is a country where you as a tourist will have to keep your eyes open 100% of the time.

If you want freedom, as much as one can reasonably expect, then imo, money does get you that. That is the reason I dont want to be poor, if you have money then you have choices. And that to me is freedom.




Edwynn -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 12:07:58 AM)


Hannah,

The universe has been here quite a long time, and ~ 4 billion years from now (maybe only 2 billion years, who knows), the universe will somehow survive with out us.

But since you asked:

There is no such thing as 'freedom,' and no such thing as 'anarchy,' nor has there ever been.

Lots of blood spilt very successfully proving the point that 'freedom' could cause every bit as much misery as monarchial  or 'reformist' or 'enlightenment' or 'communist' or any tyranny du jure could conjure.

For this very reason, tyranny has only ever existed openly for some relatively short time here lately.

We now have 'tyranny lite,' smiley face and all that.

Oligarchy is what we have now.  Hope that is sub-cosmic enough there.








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