RE: a philosophical question.

RE: a philosophical question. (Full Version)

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Edwynn -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:48:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather yes, sub-cosmic enough, but unrelated to my dilemma, but thanks all the same. Your dilemma is self-inflicted by way of having a belief system, be it 'anarchy' or otherwise. There has yet to be any belief system that is not inherently self-conflicting in a logical sense, even before confronting real world practice or implementation. Even though I do realize the unwitting philosophical pinky-to-pinky locking sisterhood of literal genesis reading with anarchy in their contra-evolutionary mindset and intent, please do not take my responses as being in some way denigrating to your purpose. Any reading of what the media foists upon us as 'news' would drive some thinking people to anarchical investigations, at the least, and non-thinking and easily scared people to literal bible reading or actually taking political ideology seriously. But most people are not actually thinking people at all, hence the real problem here. They just eat up whatever is pushed in front of them in the media dog bowl. Others have belief systems such as 'politics,' which replaces in our universities the space that used to be taken up by theology, as witnessed by the even more immensely absurd convocation of "political 'science'". Yes, modern-day academia, them of political science and financial engineering fame, that academia, the latest L. Ron Hubbard scam upon the world. PS Any philosophy at all is anathema to what could truly be called anarchy. Just sayin' ...

TheHeretic -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:55:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather "It's simple Hanners, just get rich" Success doesn't have to mean "rich." Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. Just getting from the daily scrape and survive, to a bit of stability, and a veneer of being a productive member of society will buy a lot of slack in how you live your life.

NuevaVida -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:00:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather thanks, but i did say i wasn't interested in debating the validity of my personal ethics, only asking for input as to how one might resolve a similar ethical dilemma. some fucking people just can't fucking read, can they. And yet, some can read quite clearly and still feel compelled to discuss the validity of anothers personal ethics and beliefs. You have done this yourself. Now that you're on the receiving end, perhaps you'll rethink the concept that others belief systems and internal compasses are just as valid and important to them as yours is to you...whether or not you agree with them. The dilemma you're facing is not unique. It's something everyone is faced with - some choose to examine it, as you are, and others sweep it under the carpet for the sake of ease. It's those who examine themselves - who they are, what they stand for, how they want to live - who end up better in touch with themselves and more self aware in the long run. I fully support that effort, having gone through the same, myself. So what to do? Re-examine what you stand for. Re-examine how strongly you feel about it. Re-examine what you're willing to sacrifice, if anything, to attain it. Open your mind to new possibilities. Ask yourself if you're wrong, and why you might be wrong. Ask yourself if you're right, and why you might be right. Ask yourself what the "ripple effect" is, and if you're ok with it. Keep asking yourself the hard questions, and be willing to look at the answers, whatever the truth to you might be, and however difficult it is to see. Several years ago, I came to a point in my life where everything I thought I believed and stood for no longer worked for me. It felt like the rug had been pulled out from under my feet. Everything I believed, suddenly seemed untrue. I had a serious emotional crash as a result, and basically had to start with a clean slate. I did a lot of soul searching, asking questions, talking to others, journaling until my hands ached. I spent a lot of time alone with myself, thinking about the kind of person I wanted to be, and how I was going to attain that. Many of my conclusions flowed from there - once I figured out who and what kind of person I wanted to be - an examination of my own character - then I weighed my decisions based on that. Every action I wanted to take, every word I wanted to say, was met with the question of, "Is this in alignment with what I value about myself? Does this support who I am?" If it didn't, I needed to come up with an alternate course. It was not an easy feat, especially at first. Over time, it became natural, and my actions and words flowed right in sync with my value system. But it required enormous effort in the beginning. I'm of the belief that it starts from within. We figure out who we are, as a person, and then we live true to that. Our lives become an example to others - whether or not they agree with us. And the ripple effect flows outward. If we want to change the world, we must first begin within, and with being true to our hearts. In doing so, we must be open to all possibilities, else we could very easily miss the exact piece of the puzzle that puts it all together for us.

tweakabelle -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:15:19 AM)
quote: but if i cannot justify compromising in order to try further that goal, then how the fuck can i justify compromising to not do so? if i accept society's rules in order to make my life easier, then i have abandoned my core beliefs for convenience. if i'm going to do that, then fuck it i may as well abandon them altogether and start throwing bombs and shooting people. if i can't abandon my core beliefs in order to achieve the ability to really live by them, then surely i can't do so just to get along. It's a real catch isn't it - the ultimate catch-22. Why not try looking at it from another perspective? It seems to me that you are setting out to achieve the impossible ideal and refusing to settle for less. Which is admirable but unattainable. If the ideal you have described is ever going to be achieved, is it likely to be achieved within your lifetime? I rather suspect not. In refusing to compromise in any way, you are setting yourself up for failure. Instead of specifying the impossible ideal as the goal, why not try asking yourself: What is possible for me to achieve towards this goal in my lifetime, with the talents, skills and opportunities at my disposal? The answer will be less than you might wish for - but it will be attainable. And that trade off will be a template for you to resolve the other issues. The resolution will be less than perfect - but that imperfection is what will allow you to operate in the world that you live in, to use it to your advantage from time to time. It seems to me that the only other feasible alternative is to find some uninhabited space in the boondocks somewhere and set up a community according to your ideals. But these have been tried again and again and have never succeeded. And that's before mentioning little details like health and hygiene. Best of luck in resolving your dilemma.

LaTigresse -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:35:49 AM)
So many great points made. Pam, Bita, and Barelynangel have all expressed things that had me nodding my head in agreement. I would like to think I have very high personal standards for myself and that the rest of the world does not meet my own personal standards. That is me, from my own, very shaky, self built, pedestal. The truth is, I have created my personal standards based on what I feel is right for ME. And, if I am being honest, what I can live with. If I am being 100% honest with myself, as I try to be, there is no shortage of hypocrisy and laziness in how my personal standards came about....think about that for a bit. We all want what we want and can twist things around just about anyway possible to make what we want, palatable to our personal morality. Not to mention, we develop our personal morality to cohabitate with what we want. It's only human nature. One thing I have come to realize is that my way/standards/morality... is just that, my way. It won't be correct for everyone else. I have to accept that my thing, might actually be contrary to others vision of right/moral/ethical. I have come to see a lot more grey areas than black and white. Most people seem to want to see things as either black or white........unless seeing grey gives them a personal responsibility 'out'. MOST people will take the path of least resistance. Either consciously or not. For myself......I have learned and continue to work on learning......to take a huge step back and look at whatever the situation or issue is from a 'big picture' point of view. For ME, that always involves evaluating how others will be affected. I always try to make my decisions based upon what is best for all, rather than making it about me. Even if what is best for all, is not 100% in alignment with my own values. I weigh the issues, is doing what I feel is in alignment with my personal philosophy going to be what is best long term? Is it going to have a negative impact on others? What is my priority, best for all or standing my ground, jaw firmly set? For ME, what is best for the greatest number of people always takes priority and that is how I try to proceed. My choices are not always the best. Occasionally, in retrospect, I can look back and see that there were aspects missing in the logic I used to get to the decision I made. Either through my own stubborn unwillingness to see or simply just being unaware. But I know I did the best I could with what I had at the time. Treat it as a learning experience and move forward. Another think I have learned is that, quite often, what was massively important at the time......is almost always less so, in retrospect.

NuevaVida -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 11:06:12 AM)
I saw this quote today which I thought might be relevant to this thread: "Power is not about exerting our will over others, it is about being in complete truth with yourself" ~DailyOM.com

LaTigresse -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 11:11:06 AM)
Said better than I did with a helluva lot less words!

NuevaVida -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 11:40:46 AM)
Well I was pretty wordy myself, earlier. [8D]

gungadin09 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 11:55:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather i may have to follow suit and make a major compromise, i hope i don't. i have given up a lot to keep true to my beliefs, and i would hate to have to abandon them and have it all be in vain. Is the reason you don't want to abandon your beliefs because you're sure they are right, or because you have given up a lot and don't want it to be in vain? Are you an anarchist because you want to make the world a better place, or because you need the crusade because it makes you feel righteous and special? If it's the second reason, you might want to at least think about finding a more realistic, less aggravating way to achieve meaning in your life. If it's the first, then, honestly, i don't see what you're doing that's so wrong. So you can't live up to your ideals perfectly, absent any hypocrisy at all? Chica, here's a revelation: nobody can. This isn't math. There are no perfect answers. You're gonna have to compromise no matter what you do. The question is which compromises can you live with? So you participated in a riot? You gave money to people who participated in riots? Well, i wouldn't have done that, but it's not like you killed somebody. (You didn't kill anybody, did you? Please say no.) i suspect that your motivations for being there were a lot more idealistic than most people's. i think what you did was stupid, senselessly destructive, and ultimately futile. But the windows will be repaired and the t.v.'s will be replaced. They are just things, after all. Maybe i'm just having a hard time conceptualizing what you do, putting it in terms that i can understand. But i'm not sure why participating in a riot is more evil than burning gas that comes from oil producing dictatorships, or eating the flesh of an animal that was raised in cruelty, or running the refrigerator with the knowledge that it's burning a hole in the ozone, or living in a state that occasionally sentences people to death by mistake, or that goes off to fight in an unjustified war, or any of the thousand other bad, hypocritical things that we each do every day. Most people don't worry about whether their actions match their beliefs. i gotta give you kudos for doing just that. If you're physically hurting anyone, i wish you would stop. If your actions are going to put somebody out of business, and lose the means to support themselves or their family, then i wish you would stop. But i have the idea that what you're doing is fairly innocuous (and maybe i'm totally wrong), but if it makes you feel better to throw a few sticks at the police, then do it. Just don't complain when you get thrown in jail for it. But then, i don't expect you to complain. Provided that you're not physically harming anyone, i'm suprised that so many people feel such a strong need to argue you out of your beliefs. What difference does it make to anyone else if you're an anarchist? So your actions do not absolutely, 100% match up with your beliefs. Do theirs? Does anybody's? You have more integrity than most people i know. i don't know why you should be run through the gauntlet just because you're not perfect. (Having said that, on these forums, at least, you've never hesitated to run others into the ground every time you perceived them in the wrong. And it didn't matter whether their "wrongness" didn't affect you in the slightest. It didn't matter whether their views affected them and them only. You don't show the slightest compunction about telling other people what to do, and think. Do you honestly expect them to show greater consideration for you than you do for them?) What i reject is this idea that simply because you're different, you have to change to conform to what society wants, because, oh my god, it's just WRONG to be different. i think you're just fine. However, i would LOVE it if you could find a way to practice your beliefs without hurting other people, either physically or financially. Look, you're a weirdo. Personally, i think your efforts are as silly and futile as fighting over a park bench. (...Is this bench your HONOR? Is it the one thing in the world worth dying for?...) You seem to fight over anything and everything, like you just can't stop. And if i were you, i would seriously consider prioritising, focusing on what's important, instead of flying off the handle over every little thing. You can't win every fight. Hell, you can't even fight every fight. For every one you fight, there will be 10 you miss. So you might want to choose your battles a little more carefully. Having said that, if you think this battle is worth fighting, if you really think it's that important, then fucking fight it, okay? Don't just give up and go for the path of least resistance. But you better make sure you're right, that it really is worth it. Otherwise, you're gonna wind up kicking yourself in a few years for the time and effort you wasted. pam

LaTigresse -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 12:02:43 PM)
Pam that was an absolutely AWESOME post!!

SillyMan -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 12:04:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather what i am interested in how others would face this dilemma. Shape up or ship out sm

Icarys -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 2:52:33 PM)
quote: You have more integrity than most people i know. Give me a fucking break. I like the crazy bitch but that's about as wrong as I've heard for a really long time. (Not picking on you Pam..I agree with pretty much the rest of what you said.. That shit stood out like an elephant dick at a midget bathhouse) It sure as hell ranks up there. BTW Hannah? I'd truly like to read your manifesto if you could provide the link (I'm sincerely interested despite the jokes) Fuck you Hannah. [sm=hearts.gif]

hardcybermaster -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 2:58:44 PM)
gungadin09 So you participated in a riot? You gave money to people who participated in riots? Well, i wouldn't have done that, but it's not like you killed somebody. (You didn't kill anybody, did you? Please say no.) people died in the riots, it would be ridiculous to say that Hannah was responsible for their deaths but anyone who helped inflame or perpetuate them has to take some blame for what happened

mnottertail -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 3:00:16 PM)
<snip> i am an anarchist....this is what led me to participate in the g20 riots in toronto and to assit those i know who are trying to escalate and take advantage of the riots in england. </snip> Part of the problem here is your beliefs are inchoate. An anarchist by definition (1) would not seek to hold membership of any sort(2).(above) The ideals are at odds. Additionally, all other matters aside, not every anarchist must be a bomb thrower, words are effective in their own right, given that human undertakings always lead to entropy.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:00:12 PM)
quote: Of course, in order for others to respect your rights, you need to live in a nation with an effective government. so i take it the only reason you don't just beat your fucking neighbour to death with a baseball bat and steal his shit is because you're afraid of getting arrested? sweet christ's blood on toast, the dumb shit some people post.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:03:39 PM)
quote: Well it does in Two ways: well after reading through all that, i have to say - nope i was right the first time, nothing whatso-fucking-ever to do with the question.

Icarys -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:04:25 PM)
[sm=goodpost.gif] Edit: That would be the one above... The next one taint bad neither.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:07:19 PM)
quote: And yet, some can read quite clearly and still feel compelled to discuss the validity of anothers personal ethics and beliefs. You have done this yourself. Now that you're on the receiving end, perhaps you'll rethink the concept that others belief systems and internal compasses are just as valid and important to them as yours is to you...whether or not you agree with them. yeah right, not a fucking chance of that. my beliefs have been on the receiving end plenty and i don't mind it, i'm just not fucking discussing their validity in this fucking thread.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:08:57 PM)
quote: "Power is not about exerting our will over others, it is about being in complete truth with yourself" pithy. and fucking useful. thanks nv.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:18:24 PM)
quote: Is the reason you don't want to abandon your beliefs because you're sure they are right, or because you have given up a lot and don't want it to be in vain? because they are right, or at least i am convinced of their rightness, it is self evident to me. quote: Are you an anarchist because you want to make the world a better place, or because you need the crusade because it makes you feel righteous and special? because it is the only political philosophy that has as its aim the building of a system in which people can be truly free. it would probably be a lot worse a place than now, but that's not the point. it would be the right way to live. it's not about doing what's best or easiest or the most pleasant, it's about doing things the way they should be done. quote: Do you honestly expect them to show greater consideration for you than you do for them? no, never asked them to either. i'm not ignoring the rest, i'm taking it to heart, i just figured i'd answer your questions. thanks again pam.

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