RE: a philosophical question. (Full Version)

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HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:23:14 PM)

i don't have a manifesto online, i just have my fucking beliefs, and i have attached myself to groups and people who seemed to share them. i find now that they don't really.

quote:

Fuck you Hannah. [sm=hearts.gif]
i knew you'd come around sooner or later icky. [;)]




HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:26:16 PM)

quote:

people died in the riots, it would be ridiculous to say that Hannah was responsible for their deaths but anyone who helped inflame or perpetuate them has to take some blame for what happened
i agree. and i do feel responsible, it's on my head.




HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:30:48 PM)

thanks to angel, nv, lat, tweakabelle, bita and again pam. your posts all make good points that i will consider carefully.
thanks to everybody for putting in your opinions, its been really fucking helpful.




Aynne88 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:31:22 PM)

Hannah, in your thread about getting the boot you said that you had no problem with Heather getting public assistance with her medical issues or helping with her education I believe. How does that reconcile with your anti government anarchist stance?  Before you jump on me I mean this sincerely I am not poking at you.





Kirata -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:34:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

ethics as distinct from morality, is a cost benefit ratio, i.e., the the more symmetrical the costs and benefits of a given act are distributed, the more ethical it is, and more asymmetrical, the less ethical, etc.

Symmetry connotes a correspondence in size or form. So in the context of your statement, at least as I understand it, the more ethical choice would be the one in which the costs and benefits were most equal (i.e., symmetric). I am not a fan of utilitarian ethics, but it would seem to me that in such a context the benefits should outweigh the costs for the more ethical choice, the less ethical choice being one for which the costs outweigh the benefits. In other words, both ethical and unethical choices would present assymetric costs versus benefits, the different between them being which way they tilt.

K.




HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 6:43:18 PM)

legit fucking question. because she's not an anarchist. i don't hold her to my beliefs, only myself. i don't accept the fucking stuff. that's why i also said i wouldn't live in a house that was even partly financed by public money.

also because she would die otherwise, so even if i find it distasteful, i don't hold it against her. one of the previous posters <blacksword - shit man, i'm fucking sorry i didn't mention you in the general thank you - oops> referenced that issue. if i was faced with that situation, i cannot honestly say what i would do. but i do know with 100% certainty that i sure as fuck can't ask somebody else to die for my beliefs.




Aynne88 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:04:15 PM)

Nope I saw that you said that and like I said I wasn't being an asshole when I asked.  I get it. I just like to get into people's mindsets sometimes. It seemed like it might be a contradiction and I appreciate the clarification. I don't know if I could feel the same way if I espoused the same views as you but again that is me. I don't have insurance and most likely with my medical issues I would qualify for some kind of assistance but I won't attempt to get any. There is much more to a lot of people here that maybe you don't see.....see?

Edited to add...look at those fucking Patriots kicking ass!! Football is back!! *sorry too excited and lots of after work beers!!!




HannahLynHeather -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:13:01 PM)

you know, i get fucking wet when you flex your brain like that k.




gungadin09 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:25:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
i'm not ignoring the rest, i'm taking it to heart, i just figured i'd answer your questions.


i guess my point, in a nutshell, is this: if your only dilemma is that you can't PERFECTLY reconcile your ideology with your behavior, then you are stressing out more than you ought to. All that means is that you are human. You might as well wring your hands over the fact that you can't fly.

pam




Edwynn -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:34:23 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

gungadin09
So you participated in a riot? You gave money to people who participated in riots? Well, i wouldn't have done that, but it's not like you killed somebody. (You didn't kill anybody, did you? Please say no.)



people died in the riots, it would be ridiculous to say that Hannah was responsible for their deaths but anyone who helped inflame or perpetuate them has to take some blame for what happened



Right. Just because she missed doing even the minimal research (as did the both of you also) that would have informed that the government plant ('informant') named Larry Grathwohl was responsible for all the bombs and weapons and even instigation towards violence in the first place in the group called the Weather Underground.

The silly black bandannas worn by the so-called 'anarchists' in the WTO riots would be the give-away there, for anyone paying half attention.

It's NOT hard to spot, folks.








pahunkboy -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 7:38:06 PM)

Yup.  govt uses agent provocateurs. 




DominantSeeking -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 8:18:40 PM)


GOD BLESS YOU PAM!!!!!!! If you changed 'chef' to my work title you would be writing my professional life story. I've had to compromise some already, and must now do much more of it since it's that or lose a 27 year career.
beating my head against the wall put me on anxiety and depression meds, cost me a 1.5K fine and served to change the system in NO WAY at all other than helping a few individual people, which I am still doing in a sub rosa kind of way. I have read that growing up means having and recognizing feet of clay, as per the Bible story. I hate the compromises and who I am when I'm doing them. However, there are only 3 more years to go until I will be retired, free and have my pension. Therefore, my compromise is to hang on until then and hope, as you are, to be able to retain most of my character until such time as I can express it in a hopefully more useful way, both to me and to society. What's keeping me afloat now, and might help others to stay afloat, is the story of the starfish, which you probably know. If not, the story goes that the little boy and the older man were walking on the beach and the boy was throwing beached starfish back into the waves, one at a time. The man laughed at him and said that the boy was wasting his time, since there are innumerable starfish beached on the sand and the few he was saving didn't matter. The boy looked at the man and said "It mattered to the ones I helped back into the ocean." You're saving yourself, Pam, which matters, and you're helping to save those of us who are reading you, which matters too. Thank You. DominantSeeking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
what would you do if you found yourself in a similar position one where if you wish to be able live by your beliefs, you must act contrary to those beliefs?


Let me tell you about my compromise. For a long time i wanted to be a chef. i worked. i read cookbooks. Finally i got a job in a really good restaurant, and it changed my life. i got to work with top people from all over the world, and the way that they worked. It blew my mind. The attention to detail, the level of focus, the willingness to endure pain, stress, low wages, and, let's face it, downright abusive working conditions, all for the sake of this idea of perfection that they were always pursuing without ever quite reaching it. At that level, there was a commitment to excellence that seemed almost religious. It was like they were dedicating their lives to something outside themselves. i wanted to live my life like that.

So i went for it, but i was never quite good enough. i was the only one there without a culinary degree and years of experience working in five star restaurants. i was out of my depth. i managed to hold my own, but i never made it past pantry. They told me they wouldn't put me on hot line without more experience. So i left, to get it, at a series of fairly mediocre restaurants.

The problem was the work ethic that had served me so well at the really good restaurant was a source of frustration in the bad ones. Initiative and hard work became liabilities in jobs where everyone was lazy, and stupid, and incompetent, and liked it that way. i dunno. i was taught a way to work that was like a philosophy. Not living up to a certain standard seemed to me like compromising that philosophy. And i was being expected to do that, or risk losing my job, or at least alienating the people i worked with.

For the longest time i just beat my head against the wall. i would not compromise. i didn't want to sell out, settle for the path of least resistance. And i was right. i KNEW i was right. i was, damn it. Do you have any idea how many bosses i've had who tried to get me to dip the fish in lemon juice to hide the fact that it was spoiled, or to sell the creme brulees that got left out all night, or any of the other hundred sketchy things they do that were all so easily preventable if any of the people involved had just been doing their jobs in the first place? i'm amazed more people don't die from food poisoning.

But taking that attitude put me in constant conflict with the people i worked with, for years, as well as ruining my peace of mind. And yet for years and years i just kept at it. During that time i never held a job for more than 6 months without quitting in frustration. i kept hoping the next job would be different. Eventually i realised that if i wanted to keep my job (and my sanity) i would have to play the game. Give up on my beliefs, bite the bullet, and just do whatever the fuck i was told, no matter how wrong. That's where i am now. i don't care anymore about standards or doing a good job. i just clock in, work my shift, and then go home. No more bending over backwards to get it right. No more expecting excellence, or even competence, from the people i work with. i turned off the part of me that cares about what i do, and i'm just trying to get by without ruffling any feathers. And i hate myself this way. It's like i threw away the best part of me--the part that was willing to fight for what i thought was right. i want the old me back, the passionate, uncompromising, driven me. But i'm terrified that that person won't be able to keep a job, or her sanity. So i guess i sort of sold out.

But there is method to my madness. i want to play the game and do well enough for long enough to open my own place. i'm not a brilliant cook, but i could easily do better than 95% of what's out there, simply because the majority of what's out there is so bad. So that's my new goal. Find something simple, like a coffeehouse, and do it really, really well; do it my way, by my standards. i have the knowledge to do something simple well. i have the integrity not to compromise on what's important. i know how to work hard. i have an idea of what i want. i just have to get there. And for now that means compromising. i hope that when the time comes i'll be able to stop compromising, that it won't be ingrained in me, that i will be able to turn it off.

i hope that answered your question. In a nutshell, i'm willing to temporarily compromise my beliefs provided that the net effect is good. i don't know if that means i've sold out, or just grown up.

pam





Kirata -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 8:51:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

you know, i get fucking wet when you flex your brain like that k.

It's always so nice when two people have something they both enjoy. [:D]

K.




gungadin09 -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 8:58:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
...so i take it the only reason you don't just beat your fucking neighbour to death with a baseball bat and steal his shit is because you're afraid of getting arrested?


i don't know about DesFIP, but that sure as fuck is the reason *i* don't do it.

pam




Icarys -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 9:07:55 PM)

quote:

i find now that they don't really.

Actually this is the first I'm hearing that you consider yourself an anarchist. I just might agree with some of what you wrote if I could read the link, not that me saying that is like you winning the golden ticket to the chocolate factory. [:D]

Just curious.

I think most people would probably put us with having like minds in that arena though. I think though for future riots if there are to be any, maybe you guys could hit places where it would get the most coverage and have an all around better effect? Try where the politicians dwell maybe but don't fuck up the average Bob's corner store.

quote:

i knew you'd come around sooner or later icky.

Ohh I like ya well enough but it would take a nuclear bomb going off in the fucker before I'd contemplate having a go. The only fucked up thing about that is they say that roaches would survive nuclear radiation. I can stand roaches.

[:D]




NuevaVida -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 10:07:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
...so i take it the only reason you don't just beat your fucking neighbour to death with a baseball bat and steal his shit is because you're afraid of getting arrested?


i don't know about DesFIP, but that sure as fuck is the reason *i* don't do it.

pam


It has stopped me in the past.  It wouldn't be the reason now, but it was in earlier years.  I suspect it's the reason for a lot of people.  I know it's the reason my brother didn't kill my ex husband.




Icarys -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 10:21:17 PM)

Not like "Hannah's" system wouldn't have it's own brand of justice ya know. Most people though wouldn't actually go through with murder, it's not in the majority of us. Fit of rage over a serious tragedy, maybe but I doubt laws would stop them as well in that moment.

Military has serious issue with trying to get people to kill, training is easy but getting them to take a life is much harder.




NuevaVida -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 10:25:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Not like "Hannah's" system wouldn't have it's own brand of justice ya know. Most people though wouldn't actually go through with murder, it's not in the majority of us. Fit of rage over a serious tragedy, maybe but I doubt laws would stop them as well in that moment.

Military has serious issue with trying to get people to kill, training is easy but getting them to take a life is much harder.


I can't argue the bolded part.




Edwynn -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 11:04:03 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
...so i take it the only reason you don't just beat your fucking neighbour to death with a baseball bat and steal his shit is because you're afraid of getting arrested?


i don't know about DesFIP, but that sure as fuck is the reason *i* don't do it.

pam



This point was gone over more than 4,000 years ago, but good that the both of you just now woke up to it in any case.










Awareness -> RE: a philosophical question. (8/11/2011 11:07:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Of course, in order for others to respect your rights, you need to live in a nation with an effective government.
so i take it the only reason you don't just beat your fucking neighbour to death with a baseball bat and steal his shit is because you're afraid of getting arrested?
  No.  You're absolutely right.  People don't lie, steal and take each other's stuff because they love each other.  Enforcement is completely unnecessary.  In fact, it's only men who behave this way.  If women were in charge.... yadda, yadda, yadda.

You have a phenomenally naive view of humanity.

The average individual - no, wait... let's phrase it in terms that your misandrist mind can understand... the average woman, is a cunt.

Explore the implications of that.




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