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RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 5:01:54 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ah then the 15% that republican bragged about who would vote for McCain simply based upon race doesnt bother you either.


This is where we always end up. So let's look at some numbers.

First, what you're indicating as 15 percent is guesswork. "I'd say maybe" isn't a scientific conclusion in anyone's book and is noted by the author with a question mark. The same link you provided indicated the number where race might be a factor was closer to half of that, and that number based upon an AP poll.

So I went looking for AP polls to see what they said, and when. Fortunately, there are all kinds of links to AP polls during that time, but most centered around Democrats and the perceived racism there. One such poll was conducted in conjunction with Sanford University which noted that:

More than a third of all white Democrats and independents — voters Obama can't win the White House without — agreed with at least one negative adjective about blacks

and estimated that 30 percent of Democrats wouldn't vote for Obama because of skin color. Note too, that the reason the poll was taken was not to establish voting patterns, but to see why the race was so close given the landscape should favor Obama.

About a year before, a Gallup poll found much different numbers
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/black_president_more_likely_than_mormon_or_atheist_/ where 94 percent of respondents indicated race was not an issue. Five percent did. I don't know what happened to the other 1 percent. Maybe they were like me, and just looked at the pollster like they were crazy and walked off. Who knows.

A difference between the polls is that Gallup asked the question based upon different categories. Interesting that less people would vote for a woman, and that we'd rather have a gay than an atheist.

Now to the exit polls

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15297.html

The author notes that a "stunning" 55 percent of white voters went for Obama.

Stunning? Really?

The same piece notes that 96 percent of black voters went for him as well.

And a couple of telling percentages from the same article:

White college graduates, 35 percent of voters, broke for McCain 51 to 47 percent, marking roughly a 3-point gain for Obama compared to Gore’s 44 percent showing.

Obama compensated for the drop-off in white female support with the strong 41 percent support from white men. No Democrat since Carter had until Tuesday’s election earned more than 38 percent of the white male vote.

So Obama got more of the white vote than Al Gore, at a time when Gore was coming off the vaunted Clinton years.

So now AP says, 30 percent of democrats won't vote for him, 8 percent of republican voters won't vote for him, and some unnamed republican says whoo hoo it's 15 percent - which taz then latches on to and claims racism to that level.

The AP poll didn't ask people about Obama, or how they would vote. The threw up a list of adjectives and found that 30 percent of Democrats agreed with at least one negative adjective.  From that, they surmised that racism was rampant and if Obama lost it would be because we're so racist. Noteworthy things here. They didn't throw up a list of positive adjectives, nor did they care how black voters would vote, nor did throw up a list of adjectives regarding whites to compare the two.

All that hype and the reality of the vote was so far away from the AP poll as to put it in the dumpster of history as poorly conceived, poorly executed, no where predictive of how people would vote and based upon a completely false view of people in general.

I call bullshit on your number.

Edited to add, a more recent poll:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-gfk-poll-views-economy-obama-role-sour-070444586.html

The survey found that 86 percent of adults see the economy as "poor," up from 80 percent in June. About half — 49 percent — said it worsened just in the past month. Only 27 percent responded that way in the June survey.

Who was it said, it's the economy stupid? How about, it's the economy and half the nation is suing your ass over a poorly written healthcare bill that seeks an unprecedented power grab?

How about that?
















< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 9/4/2011 5:07:14 AM >

_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 5:26:38 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You dont find it disturbing that people would actually admit to not voting for someone based upon skin color alone?



No more disturbing than those who WOULD vote for someone based upon skin color alone.


Uhhh...........isn't that pretty much the same thing?

If you don't vote for one candidate based on skin color then you are choosing the other candidate based on skin color.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 5:50:21 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You dont find it disturbing that people would actually admit to not voting for someone based upon skin color alone?



No more disturbing than those who WOULD vote for someone based upon skin color alone.


Uhhh...........isn't that pretty much the same thing?

If you don't vote for one candidate based on skin color then you are choosing the other candidate based on skin color.



Thanks. It's hard to get a liberal to admit that sometimes.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15297.html

Fully 96 percent of black voters supported Obama and constituted 13 percent of the electorate, a 2-percentage-point rise in their national turnout. As in past years, black women turned out at a higher rate than black men.

and

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111049/Obamas-Race-May-Much-Plus-Minus.aspx




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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 6:05:29 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I was thinking about the lack of respect during Bush's term as well. Clinton kind of brought it on himself, unfortunately. I have a hard time with him because he lied under oath, even though I don't so much care about what it is he lied about. Bush seemed to be disrespected by the people more so than democrat politicians and pundits. Obama seems to really get hit hard by other politicians, but I don't get the sense that the average person thinks he's an idiot, like they felt about Bush.

I think all of it is disgusting. We see what happens to men when they become President. They age overnight. It must be the most difficult job in the world for so many reasons, and these men - no matter their party affiliation - have something special in them to be able to wake up in the morning and face it every day. I imagine that upon being voted in, the new President has a really big wake-up call, learning everything that the rest of us will never know, and I would bet that many decisions are based on that information that the rest of us will never know. I'm not saying don't question what is done. But, chances are good that the President - whoever he or she is - is not some flaming idiot just because a battle was started in a war you don't agree with or a health care plan you don't back was begun. There are too many advisors and too much information worldwide for political decisions to be made without a whole bunch of forethought and evaluation. We get so angry when decisions are made that are not the decisions we would have made ourselves. To that end, again, I say...then run for office. Start local. Start to see what it's like on the other side of the table, when so much more comes into your decision-making than you could ever imagine as you pass judgment at the kitchen table during a Thanksgiving Day discussion.

The President earns the distinction of being called such. Anything less is disrespectful.


How does he earn that?

Just by being a good enough politician to get elected to the office?

Presidents and members of Congress are our representatives.

I get real tired of hearing them referred to as our leaders and the suggestion they deserve automatic respect just by virtue of the office they hold.







< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/4/2011 6:06:08 AM >

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 6:22:22 AM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I was thinking about the lack of respect during Bush's term as well. Clinton kind of brought it on himself, unfortunately. I have a hard time with him because he lied under oath, even though I don't so much care about what it is he lied about. Bush seemed to be disrespected by the people more so than democrat politicians and pundits. Obama seems to really get hit hard by other politicians, but I don't get the sense that the average person thinks he's an idiot, like they felt about Bush.

I think all of it is disgusting. We see what happens to men when they become President. They age overnight. It must be the most difficult job in the world for so many reasons, and these men - no matter their party affiliation - have something special in them to be able to wake up in the morning and face it every day. I imagine that upon being voted in, the new President has a really big wake-up call, learning everything that the rest of us will never know, and I would bet that many decisions are based on that information that the rest of us will never know. I'm not saying don't question what is done. But, chances are good that the President - whoever he or she is - is not some flaming idiot just because a battle was started in a war you don't agree with or a health care plan you don't back was begun. There are too many advisors and too much information worldwide for political decisions to be made without a whole bunch of forethought and evaluation. We get so angry when decisions are made that are not the decisions we would have made ourselves. To that end, again, I say...then run for office. Start local. Start to see what it's like on the other side of the table, when so much more comes into your decision-making than you could ever imagine as you pass judgment at the kitchen table during a Thanksgiving Day discussion.

The President earns the distinction of being called such. Anything less is disrespectful.


How does he earn that?

Just by being a good enough politician to get elected to the office?



Yes. Because none of us are up there, clamoring to take on what has to be the most difficult job in the world. There are a few people every four years who have made it through the public lynchings and judgment, and somehow, like it or not, have earned enough respect to even get to the point of being on any kind of widespread ballot in the first place.

I call anybody by their title when appropriate. And you would too, I bet. We all shorten names when talking amongst ourselves, but I would bet the house that if you were to meet him in person, I would hear "Nice to meet you, Mr. President." And when I see my local state senator, I call him "Senator" even though I know him well enough to call him by his first name. And when I see someone I don't know very well, I call her "Mrs..." And when I see my doctor, I call him "Doctor." It's not rocket science. He has earned his title because, yes, he's a good enough politician to get there. And thank goodness there are people who are willing to put themselves out there like that and willing to be publicly hated by half the country for making the best decisions they feel they can make. Disagree with him? Sure. That's fair. Disrespect him because you disagree with him? Childish.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 7:14:06 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Here's my simple take on Obama's presidency-

1) At the end of the day, people tend to vote their wallets.
2) Obama inherited a disaster of an economy.
3) The Republicans drove the country over a cliff, and are screaming to do so again.
4) If Obama would be an effective leader, he would have done what needed to be done in terms of a stimulus, and showing the Republican folly for what it is.
5) He hasn't done so.
6) Our wallets have suffered.
7) We're angry with the guy because he hasn't lead.

There are going to be some folks for whom race is an issue. There were folks who couldn't stand Kennedy being a Catholic. But most of us are just aggravated because a guy that we fought hard for-and helped to overcome the race barrier- has squandered his presidency in trying to pander to a bunch of lunatics hell bent on destroying the country.

To ST- we've got to do something about healthcare. The bill that was passed was a Republican bill. It actually seems to be working in Massachusetts. The current system is out of control- the status quo is not a viable option. Simply put, when people get sick, they can't afford their care. We need to treat health care like defense. If you accept the need for a standing army- well, then we need health care on a federal level for much the same reason- an individual can't deal with the threat. I would prefer a government as a single payer option- I'm underwhelmed with the private sectors accomplishments in health care, education, prisons etc. The for profit motive is not a great idea in all endeavors.


Sam

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 7:14:12 AM   
outhere69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

The NYT is a house organ, with emphasis on the word "organ," for the democrat national committee. They do have a good technology section, though. david pogue is outstanding. Let me sum it up for you. Illegals GOOD. Obama GOD LIKE. Taxes GOOD, especially on the "rich" (anybody with a job). Big Government GREAT; bigger government HEAVEN. Civility GOOD but only to shut up conservatives (leftists can say and do whatever they want with impunity). Pick and choose favorite laws and amendments like #1... ignore the rest, especially #2 and #10. Climate change... NEVER EVER QUESTION THEIR RELIGION! If you question (the heart of the scientific method), you are racists and homophobes.

I might have missed a few, but that pretty well sums it up. And why I find no room for discussion with leftists.

Guess that explains them beating the war drum for invading Iraq.

FR...  When did a democrat yell at Bush during a speech to Congress, as Joe Wilson did?  For that matter, when has any member of the opposing party done that in recent history?

edited to correct an error


< Message edited by outhere69 -- 9/4/2011 7:49:46 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 7:36:02 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
To ST- we've got to do something about healthcare. The bill that was passed was a Republican bill. It actually seems to be working in Massachusetts. The current system is out of control- the status quo is not a viable option. Simply put, when people get sick, they can't afford their care. We need to treat health care like defense. If you accept the need for a standing army- well, then we need health care on a federal level for much the same reason- an individual can't deal with the threat. I would prefer a government as a single payer option- I'm underwhelmed with the private sectors accomplishments in health care, education, prisons etc. The for profit motive is not a great idea in all endeavors.
Sam

I was watching an online vid yesterday, the expert said any couple 65+ needs to set aside some retirement $ for their health care. She said that a senior couple would likely need $200,000+ for their senior care. I have heard it before that the last 3 years of a person's life are the most (medically) expensive. I have always said people vastly underestimate what they need when they retire..

I dunno what the healthcare bill pays or doesnt pay but if the govt is going to be footing the bill for all the boomers (who are now starting to retire), I wonder what kinda shape the US will be in when that grey wave hits medical cost-wise. If that healthcare isnt all covered by the govt, then are these people going to be able to take care what isnt covered? I really feel sorry for the young people that are going to get stuck with the tax bill and economic hit down the road..

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 7:40:25 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Here's my simple take on Obama's presidency-

1) At the end of the day, people tend to vote their wallets.
2) Obama inherited a disaster of an economy.
3) The Republicans drove the country over a cliff, and are screaming to do so again.
4) If Obama would be an effective leader, he would have done what needed to be done in terms of a stimulus, and showing the Republican folly for what it is.
5) He hasn't done so.
6) Our wallets have suffered.
7) We're angry with the guy because he hasn't lead.

There are going to be some folks for whom race is an issue. There were folks who couldn't stand Kennedy being a Catholic. But most of us are just aggravated because a guy that we fought hard for-and helped to overcome the race barrier- has squandered his presidency in trying to pander to a bunch of lunatics hell bent on destroying the country.

To ST- we've got to do something about healthcare. The bill that was passed was a Republican bill. It actually seems to be working in Massachusetts. The current system is out of control- the status quo is not a viable option. Simply put, when people get sick, they can't afford their care. We need to treat health care like defense. If you accept the need for a standing army- well, then we need health care on a federal level for much the same reason- an individual can't deal with the threat. I would prefer a government as a single payer option- I'm underwhelmed with the private sectors accomplishments in health care, education, prisons etc. The for profit motive is not a great idea in all endeavors.


Sam


I'll agree with most of your post Sam, especially the part about needing to do something where healthcare is concerned. When it comes to who is hell bent on destroying the country though, we have different takes. I fully agree Republicans have done their part. Democrats are just as guilty though.

A lot of folks like to point to the debt ceiling issue. Here's how I see it. Establishment Republicans did their usual bullshit of paying lip service to getting debt under control while fully expecting to vote to increase no matter what. John McCain nailed that to a wall in an interview where I heard him backtrack from one stance to another.

Democrats assumed the normal bullshit game of up-manship and brinkmanship, with both them and establishment Republicans angling for stances that would give them the best foot forward in terms of voters, not the nation, nor the economy. Obama played right along too. First dictating what he would accept, then threatening to veto anything he didn't like.

So far, we don't have much in terms of anything related to caring for the country. We just have politicians playing along party lines and doing the get-in-front-of-the camera thing to blame the other side.

Tea Partiers are the only one's who stood on principle. They stood strong, and hard, and not only did McCain cave, but Obama caved. A lot of folks call that lunacy. I believe we wouldn't be where we are if more people had stood on principle in the past. I told folks here a year ago that I expected Tea Party folk to do what they were elected to do. And they did.

The debt ceiling issue was a construct of politicians who didn't realize that hey, we have some new kids we can't push around.. It's too bad, there's not more like them.


_____________________________


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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 8:07:01 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

The NYT is a house organ, with emphasis on the word "organ," for the democrat national committee. They do have a good technology section, though. david pogue is outstanding. Let me sum it up for you. Illegals GOOD. Obama GOD LIKE. Taxes GOOD, especially on the "rich" (anybody with a job). Big Government GREAT; bigger government HEAVEN. Civility GOOD but only to shut up conservatives (leftists can say and do whatever they want with impunity). Pick and choose favorite laws and amendments like #1... ignore the rest, especially #2 and #10. Climate change... NEVER EVER QUESTION THEIR RELIGION! If you question (the heart of the scientific method), you are racists and homophobes.

I might have missed a few, but that pretty well sums it up. And why I find no room for discussion with leftists.

Guess that explains them beating the war drum for invading Iraq.

FR...  When did a democrat yell at Bush during a speech to Congress, as Joe Wilson did?  For that matter, when has any member of the opposing party done that in recent history?

edited to correct an error



For clarity

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html

Clinton was also booed.


_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 9:22:08 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

fr

1. you're all fucking big-government leftists, every fucking last one of you. it just depends on where the viewer is standing, now don't it?

2. i have zero respect for any of them simply on the basis that they are successful politicians and therefore corrupt fucks unworthy of any respect.
quote:

They dont care what the majority wants... just what those who hold the purse strings want.
qfft - that goes for all of them



It does go for all of them.... both sides of the isle.

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RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 9:23:38 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
Here's my simple take on Obama's presidency-

1) At the end of the day, people tend to vote their wallets.
2) Obama inherited a disaster of an economy.
3) The Republicans drove the country over a cliff, and are screaming to do so again.
4) If Obama would be an effective leader, he would have done what needed to be done in terms of a stimulus, and showing the Republican folly for what it is.
5) He hasn't done so.
6) Our wallets have suffered.
7) We're angry with the guy because he hasn't lead.

There are going to be some folks for whom race is an issue. There were folks who couldn't stand Kennedy being a Catholic. But most of us are just aggravated because a guy that we fought hard for-and helped to overcome the race barrier- has squandered his presidency in trying to pander to a bunch of lunatics hell bent on destroying the country.

Sam you might remember a discussion we had last year where I suggested that Obama's policy of spending 800 billion to get out of recession wouldn't work. At the time Obama wanted Europe to also spend as well. They didn't for the most part, and to be fair that hasn't been a recipe for success but a few of the big economies there (e.g. Italy) were in major trouble after decades of drifting into serious debt. One can argue over the issues surrounding the problem all day but it was very clear at the time that the markets weren't on-side. That's all that really mattered, their principle fear being over massive unsustainable debt so a much bigger spend would have been disasterous, and arguably impossible to distribute efficiently as the well known economist John Taylor asserted. McCain would have done less. He might have suggested a moderate payroll tax reduction which was one of the main Republican ideas. Of course it would cost a lot but would've cut the cost of hiring workers, and give workers more money for consumer spending and covering debts. It would boost the private sector going to the heart of the recession. I think Obama's failure to lead stemmed not from providing a bigger stimulous package but the opposite. He failed to see that his own political approach just couldn't sort out the problem. It will be pretty much deserved if it turns out that people vote him out in '12 because of their wallets.

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 9:41:25 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

First, what you're indicating as 15 percent is guesswork. "I'd say maybe" isn't a scientific conclusion in anyone's book and is noted by the author with a question mark. The same link you provided indicated the number where race might be a factor was closer to half of that, and that number based upon an AP poll.

So I went looking for AP polls to see what they said, and when. Fortunately, there are all kinds of links to AP polls during that time, but most centered around Democrats and the perceived racism there. One such poll was conducted in conjunction with Sanford University which noted that:

More than a third of all white Democrats and independents — voters Obama can't win the White House without — agreed with at least one negative adjective about blacks

and estimated that 30 percent of Democrats wouldn't vote for Obama because of skin color. Note too, that the reason the poll was taken was not to establish voting patterns, but to see why the race was so close given the landscape should favor Obama.


The arthur actually questioned the estimates given to him by a republican as being too low... I happen to agree.

I dont question that white Democrats wouldnt vote for a black candidate based upon skin color.

Now, lets look at my question...

You dont find it disturbing that people would actually admit to not voting for someone based upon skin color alone?

You spoke of Palin/Backmann. I was ready and eager to vote for Palin... then she opened her mouth. It had nothing to do with skin color... and everything to do with her own stupidity. She isnt a woman I would ever call "friend", not even someone I would wish to know... based upon her own actions/words.

Obama wasnt even given the chance to screw up before he was dismissed... simply because of his skin color, according to those 8% who responded to that poll.

To me, thats "often" enough.

"We still don't like black people," said John Clouse, 57, reflecting the sentiments of his pals gathered at a coffee shop in Somerset, Ohio.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26803840/ns/politics-decision_08/t/poll-racial-views-steer-some-away-obama/

Certainly, Republican John McCain has his own obstacles: He's an ally of an unpopular president and would be the nation's oldest first-term president. But Obama faces this: 40 percent of all white Americans hold at least a partly negative view toward blacks, and that includes many Democrats and independents.

Says it all.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 10:10:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You dont find it disturbing that people would actually admit to not voting for someone based upon skin color alone?



No more disturbing than those who WOULD vote for someone based upon skin color alone.


Uhhh...........isn't that pretty much the same thing?

If you don't vote for one candidate based on skin color then you are choosing the other candidate based on skin color.



Youve identified half of TG's mischaracterization, congrats!

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(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 10:13:34 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

The NYT is a house organ, with emphasis on the word "organ," for the democrat national committee. They do have a good technology section, though. david pogue is outstanding. Let me sum it up for you. Illegals GOOD. Obama GOD LIKE. Taxes GOOD, especially on the "rich" (anybody with a job). Big Government GREAT; bigger government HEAVEN. Civility GOOD but only to shut up conservatives (leftists can say and do whatever they want with impunity). Pick and choose favorite laws and amendments like #1... ignore the rest, especially #2 and #10. Climate change... NEVER EVER QUESTION THEIR RELIGION! If you question (the heart of the scientific method), you are racists and homophobes.

I might have missed a few, but that pretty well sums it up. And why I find no room for discussion with leftists.

Guess that explains them beating the war drum for invading Iraq.

FR...  When did a democrat yell at Bush during a speech to Congress, as Joe Wilson did?  For that matter, when has any member of the opposing party done that in recent history?

edited to correct an error



You might also have edited it to add that, regardless of the lack of decorum, Wilson was proven to be correct.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 10:15:17 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
To ST- we've got to do something about healthcare. The bill that was passed was a Republican bill. It actually seems to be working in Massachusetts. The current system is out of control- the status quo is not a viable option. Simply put, when people get sick, they can't afford their care. We need to treat health care like defense. If you accept the need for a standing army- well, then we need health care on a federal level for much the same reason- an individual can't deal with the threat. I would prefer a government as a single payer option- I'm underwhelmed with the private sectors accomplishments in health care, education, prisons etc. The for profit motive is not a great idea in all endeavors.
Sam

I was watching an online vid yesterday, the expert said any couple 65+ needs to set aside some retirement $ for their health care. She said that a senior couple would likely need $200,000+ for their senior care. I have heard it before that the last 3 years of a person's life are the most (medically) expensive. I have always said people vastly underestimate what they need when they retire..

I dunno what the healthcare bill pays or doesnt pay but if the govt is going to be footing the bill for all the boomers (who are now starting to retire), I wonder what kinda shape the US will be in when that grey wave hits medical cost-wise. If that healthcare isnt all covered by the govt, then are these people going to be able to take care what isnt covered? I really feel sorry for the young people that are going to get stuck with the tax bill and economic hit down the road..


ACA does have provisions for Long Term Care. Of course those of us who accept our personal responsbility have LTC insurance without relying on the government to provide it.

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RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 10:15:58 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I didnt mischaracterize anything, willbe. The fact is that I have issues with both sides of that coin. You chose a side of the coin, I decided to run with it. Its long been implied that Obama won simply because he was black. I disagree. Obama won because he wasnt white, wasnt part of the former administration and people wanted a change.

Whether they got it is a different story.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 11:58:38 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
To ST- we've got to do something about healthcare. The bill that was passed was a Republican bill. It actually seems to be working in Massachusetts. The current system is out of control- the status quo is not a viable option. Simply put, when people get sick, they can't afford their care. We need to treat health care like defense. If you accept the need for a standing army- well, then we need health care on a federal level for much the same reason- an individual can't deal with the threat. I would prefer a government as a single payer option- I'm underwhelmed with the private sectors accomplishments in health care, education, prisons etc. The for profit motive is not a great idea in all endeavors.
Sam

I was watching an online vid yesterday, the expert said any couple 65+ needs to set aside some retirement $ for their health care. She said that a senior couple would likely need $200,000+ for their senior care. I have heard it before that the last 3 years of a person's life are the most (medically) expensive. I have always said people vastly underestimate what they need when they retire..

I dunno what the healthcare bill pays or doesnt pay but if the govt is going to be footing the bill for all the boomers (who are now starting to retire), I wonder what kinda shape the US will be in when that grey wave hits medical cost-wise. If that healthcare isnt all covered by the govt, then are these people going to be able to take care what isnt covered? I really feel sorry for the young people that are going to get stuck with the tax bill and economic hit down the road..


ACA does have provisions for Long Term Care. Of course those of us who accept our personal responsbility have LTC insurance without relying on the government to provide it.

For me, it goes beyond personal responsibility, it goes to being entirely selfish cuz there is no way I want the govt dictating to me what kinda seniors warehouse they are gonna stick me in and forget about me... After seeing my first boyfriends grandparents going into a home, and how dismal and depressing it was, its no wonder they were both dead in 6 months or so.. I dont want to have that happen to me.. Maybe most people are in denial about their last few years...

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 12:06:37 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

The NYT is a house organ, with emphasis on the word "organ," for the democrat national committee. They do have a good technology section, though. david pogue is outstanding. Let me sum it up for you. Illegals GOOD. Obama GOD LIKE. Taxes GOOD, especially on the "rich" (anybody with a job). Big Government GREAT; bigger government HEAVEN. Civility GOOD but only to shut up conservatives (leftists can say and do whatever they want with impunity). Pick and choose favorite laws and amendments like #1... ignore the rest, especially #2 and #10. Climate change... NEVER EVER QUESTION THEIR RELIGION! If you question (the heart of the scientific method), you are racists and homophobes.

I might have missed a few, but that pretty well sums it up. And why I find no room for discussion with leftists.

Guess that explains them beating the war drum for invading Iraq.

FR...  When did a democrat yell at Bush during a speech to Congress, as Joe Wilson did?  For that matter, when has any member of the opposing party done that in recent history?

edited to correct an error



For clarity

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html

Clinton was also booed.


booing is not the same as a shouted 'you lie' during the speech.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: NYT article on lack of respect by GOP - 9/4/2011 12:46:29 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

First, what you're indicating as 15 percent is guesswork. "I'd say maybe" isn't a scientific conclusion in anyone's book and is noted by the author with a question mark. The same link you provided indicated the number where race might be a factor was closer to half of that, and that number based upon an AP poll.

So I went looking for AP polls to see what they said, and when. Fortunately, there are all kinds of links to AP polls during that time, but most centered around Democrats and the perceived racism there. One such poll was conducted in conjunction with Sanford University which noted that:

More than a third of all white Democrats and independents — voters Obama can't win the White House without — agreed with at least one negative adjective about blacks

and estimated that 30 percent of Democrats wouldn't vote for Obama because of skin color. Note too, that the reason the poll was taken was not to establish voting patterns, but to see why the race was so close given the landscape should favor Obama.


The arthur actually questioned the estimates given to him by a republican as being too low... I happen to agree.

I dont question that white Democrats wouldnt vote for a black candidate based upon skin color.

Now, lets look at my question...

You dont find it disturbing that people would actually admit to not voting for someone based upon skin color alone?

You spoke of Palin/Backmann. I was ready and eager to vote for Palin... then she opened her mouth. It had nothing to do with skin color... and everything to do with her own stupidity. She isnt a woman I would ever call "friend", not even someone I would wish to know... based upon her own actions/words.

Obama wasnt even given the chance to screw up before he was dismissed... simply because of his skin color, according to those 8% who responded to that poll.

To me, thats "often" enough.

"We still don't like black people," said John Clouse, 57, reflecting the sentiments of his pals gathered at a coffee shop in Somerset, Ohio.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26803840/ns/politics-decision_08/t/poll-racial-views-steer-some-away-obama/

Certainly, Republican John McCain has his own obstacles: He's an ally of an unpopular president and would be the nation's oldest first-term president. But Obama faces this: 40 percent of all white Americans hold at least a partly negative view toward blacks, and that includes many Democrats and independents.

Says it all.


No, it doesn't say it all.

You asked, quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ah then the 15% that republican bragged about who would vote for McCain simply based upon race doesnt bother you either.

That number is bullshit, based upon a statement made from an unnamed source, just a republican. If you want to say it all, say it from the exit polling. Say it from the flip side, which wilbur asked and you ignored, that being a hefty percentage may have voted for him because he was black. 95 percent of the black vote went his way, and blacks comprised 13 percent of the electorate. In addition, a percentage of whites indicated they would vote for him because he was black. Add them together at their highest potential, and 21 percent of the voters may have  indeed voted for him due to skin color alone.

From your own link, you choose to take an unqualified number that the author himself disputes by including a poll that almost half the number you want to pick.  What I will grant you is that we don't know the margin of error, assuming 3- 4 percent, what we  have as far as numbers that might vote against him because of skin color runs anywhere from 4 to 12 percent. Gallup asked the question directly and arrived at 5 percent. That implies The actual number your poll represents probably runs on the smaller side of the margin of error.

What you have from AP and Sanford are people trying to nail color to the reason Obama might lose. What you're ignoring is that Obama picked up more white vote than any president in the last 30+ years.

You want to tell it all, then damned well tell it all. Don't pick some arbitrary number that supports a bullshit stance where you can imply people don't like him because he's black - when any poll in the nation will  tell you people generally like Obama.





< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 9/4/2011 1:26:53 PM >

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