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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/5/2011 10:45:52 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
Lay out your vision for creating jobs.

imo, stop fucking hog tying small businesses.

Depending on what source you believe, anywhere from 64 to 75% of all new jobs are created from small businesses.




Actually, according to data from the Center for Economic and Policy Research have shown, small businesses account for only 7.2 percent of total US employment, a significantly smaller share of total employment than in most Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries.




7.2%???? Youre certifiably insane.

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/5/2011 10:57:39 PM   
Termyn8or


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Don't be an idiot (more) willy. How small of a business ?

Damn, I thought of all people you would know how to handle numbers and know how they are manipulated, I thought it was something to do with your job. Was I wrong ?

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/5/2011 10:59:11 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Don't be an idiot (more) willy. How small of a business ?

Damn, I thought of all people you would know how to handle numbers and know how they are manipulated, I thought it was something to do with your job. Was I wrong ?

T^T


Theres nothing to manipulate. Small business is DEFINED as less than 500 employees for all statistical reporting.

Small firms:
• Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
• Employ half of all private sector employees.
• Pay 44 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
• Generated 65 percent of net new jobs over the past 17 years.
• Create more than half of the nonfarm private GDP.
• Hire 43 percent of high tech workers ( scientists, engineers, computer programmers, and others).
• Are 52 percent home-based and 2 percent franchises.
• Made up 97.5 percent of all identified exporters and produced 31 percent of export value in FY 2008.
• Produce 13 times more patents per employee than large patenting firms.



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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/5/2011 11:13:21 PM   
tazzygirl


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Interestingly enough, when I went to the Centers web site, this is what I found...

The study, “An International Comparison of Small Business Employment,” reviews the most recently available, internationally comparable data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) to measure the share of small businesses in 22 rich democracies. The report finds:

The United States has the second lowest share of self-employed workers (7.2 percent).
The United States has among the lowest shares of employment in small businesses in manufacturing - only 11.1 percent of the U.S. manufacturing workforce is in enterprises with fewer than 20 employees. Eighteen other rich countries have a higher share of manufacturing employment in small enterprises, including Germany (13.0 percent), Sweden (14.4 percent), and France (18.0 percent).
U.S. small businesses are particularly weak in high-tech. The United States, for example, has the second lowest share of computer-related service employment in firms with fewer than 100 employees and the third lowest share of research and development related employment in firms with fewer than 100 employees.


http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/us-small-business-sector-among-the-smallest-in-the-world/


That does not mean "small businesses account for only 7.2 percent of total US employment"

This article was comparing countries. You could have a small business that is incorporated, or an LLC, and they would not be considered "self-employed".

Statistics are crazy numbers that people can skew to make them say whatever someone wants them to say if taken out of context.

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/5/2011 11:29:17 PM   
Termyn8or


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"Small business is DEFINED as less than 500 employees for all statistical reporting. "

If that is the definition you are using I agee that 7.2% is a ridiculously low estimate.

But understand this, if that definition was 20 employees, not long ago I would have said the same thing. But things are changing fast. In this city alone, one small business goes out of business every fucking day.

Five hundred employees ? There are banks that don't even employ that many people in all their branches in this county.

T^T

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 12:20:07 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Small business is DEFINED as less than 500 employees for all statistical reporting. "

If that is the definition you are using I agee that 7.2% is a ridiculously low estimate.

But understand this, if that definition was 20 employees, not long ago I would have said the same thing. But things are changing fast. In this city alone, one small business goes out of business every fucking day.

Five hundred employees ? There are banks that don't even employ that many people in all their branches in this county.

T^T

get real termy, big banks (those ones too big to fail)? at&t? Microsoft, all those big corps, they all outsource their call centers, their software dev depts, accounting depts, etc etc to India (or wherever) now.. thats why it doesnt "look" like they employ many people.. but they have branches worldwide and make no mistake, they are big (ugly) business. Thats why when those kinda companies downsize, it can be 6,000 jobs lost at a time.
B of A in 2010 had 287,000 employees (worldwide)... In Charlotte alone there are 15,000 working there.
How many cities would 287,000 people be, I wonder?

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/03/15/2141028/bank-of-america-cuts-consumer.html

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/6/2011 12:24:01 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 12:45:00 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Interestingly enough, when I went to the Centers web site, this is what I found...

The study, “An International Comparison of Small Business Employment,” reviews the most recently available, internationally comparable data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) to measure the share of small businesses in 22 rich democracies. The report finds:

The United States has the second lowest share of self-employed workers (7.2 percent).
The United States has among the lowest shares of employment in small businesses in manufacturing - only 11.1 percent of the U.S. manufacturing workforce is in enterprises with fewer than 20 employees. Eighteen other rich countries have a higher share of manufacturing employment in small enterprises, including Germany (13.0 percent), Sweden (14.4 percent), and France (18.0 percent).
U.S. small businesses are particularly weak in high-tech. The United States, for example, has the second lowest share of computer-related service employment in firms with fewer than 100 employees and the third lowest share of research and development related employment in firms with fewer than 100 employees.


http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/us-small-business-sector-among-the-smallest-in-the-world/


That does not mean "small businesses account for only 7.2 percent of total US employment"

This article was comparing countries. You could have a small business that is incorporated, or an LLC, and they would not be considered "self-employed".

Statistics are crazy numbers that people can skew to make them say whatever someone wants them to say if taken out of context.

its always suspicious imo when someone makes claims about stats like that but then doesnt provide any links/sources of those stats...

Imo, i think the US just has many more big businesses than those other countries so, then yeah, there will be less small businesses in high tech cuz there are likely more big businesses in high tech.. So if that is true, then guess that means go big or go home?...

It would be interesting to compare how inventive each country is.. imo, the US has been quite influential, at least so far.. Microsoft, IBM, google, intel, Amazon, etc etc, started in the US and then sold products to the world..

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 12:56:18 AM   
Termyn8or


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First of all if I am not mistaken we know about banks here in Cleveland. Cleveland Trust, look it up. They got big and moved out. My bank was Dollar Bank until a few months ago. Based in Pittsburg. Both cities are Fed reserve cities, like I fucking care anyway. They pulled out. How many Ohioans does Keybank employ ?

Fuck all of them. My sinister worked for those motherfuckers and back then she could change jobs at the drop of a hat. Not no more. They can all go to fucking India for all I care.

You know what's cool about this whole fucking thing ? American workers got tired of filling the bosses bags with bread. OK so now all the companies are in otgher places. Guess what, those people will eventually learn as well, and probably better because their nice and fresh and had a better education. They will fuck these suits way better than we ever could. Let those people breathe, and develop a nice healthy greed in them. Where are the companies going to go next, Antfuckingarctica ?

One of the few things that makes me want to live is to see this shit really come tumbling down. I really don't have much more to live for.

T^T

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 4:46:49 AM   
StrangerThan


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From the sound of it, looks like more stimulus is in the works.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-says-gop-must-back-us-first-create-182721246.html

Which explains the preview targeting the GOP, given that borrowing more money pretty much flies in the face of the last couple of months. The article also notes that his speech "marks a departure from long term deficit reduction." That would be a no-brainer if stimulus is indeed in the works.

Also on the table, the temporary payroll tax cut. Don't get me wrong, I'm probably in the boat with most people and like more money when it comes paycheck time, but seems this one is cutting Social Securities throat, and as I noted once before, like the Bush tax cuts, this one is also going to feel like a tax hike when it comes back.

So far, nothing new. We're heading into fall. From a personal perspective, the economy slows fall and winter. That's from family businesses that see a drop off, and from the work I do.  Consulting work, at least the kind I do, usually runs fairly strong up to about Thanksgiving, then drops off into Christmas. The first quarter can be iffy, but the last three years it's been hit and miss. That makes August's job numbers look like a stop sign on the road to recovery.

A few things: consumer confidence and spending are two of the engines that drive the economy. There is nothing here that gives me a lot of confidence. We will get a brief surge in jobs in November and December from holiday hiring. Wall Street will probably have a few good days based off that - something I've never understood since they're obviously not long term jobs, nor particularly good jobs. From what I read, credit remains tight even though financial institutions and large companies are sitting on unprecedented levels of cash. The national trend the last couple of years for families has been one of reducing debt and saving. I don't see anything here that's going to change that perspective.

The credit rating agencies made a strong case for the US to get it's fiscal house in order. We'll be under review again before long. If we hit another downgrade from borrowing more, we're looking at potentially hundreds of millions more in interest to service the debt we have.

Here;s what I think.

Another round of stimulus will let the economy limp along. The last one created jobs, but made no dent in the unemployment figures. Someone needs to explain to me how stimulus creates jobs, and jobs data has indicated a plus on the jobs side for most of the year, yet unemployment has remained at what amounts to the same level. It doesn't make sense in any equation I've ever worked. Where is the blood being spilled?

Republicans need to sign on to the payroll tax cut. Opposition to it makes little sense. I understand that tax breaks to business holds the potential of being much more of an economic shot in the arm, but folks need money to spend at the same time. A great business with no customers fails just as often and quickly as a bad business people don't frequent. The key is getting people in the door, and they need both to feel more confident and have the money to spend.

Which leads to the figures on inflation. I understand core goods not changing much. Like someone yelled at a conference an Obama official held last year though, I can't eat an Ipad. Where those numbers hurt most are older folks. Anyone who buys groceries and fuel knows that cost has risen over the last few years, but SS payments haven't. A lot of folks like to call SS an entitlement. If I were drawing it right now, I'd be more like, just give me my friggin money back that I gave you to ensure my future.

None of the items Obama has previewed will create sustainable jobs. They're temporary in nature. What I don't see yet is anything to really inspire confidence in the economy or to tempt financials and large corporations to spend. It's just not there. Maybe that will come, but so far, I don't see it.

Mostly what I see is politics.




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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 5:48:29 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

It would be interesting to compare how inventive each country is.. imo, the US has been quite influential, at least so far.. Microsoft, IBM, google, intel, Amazon, etc etc, started in the US and then sold products to the world..


We sell to the world, and also employ the world.  Those US companies have done a crapload of offshoring.  


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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 8:02:51 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

It would be interesting to compare how inventive each country is.. imo, the US has been quite influential, at least so far.. Microsoft, IBM, google, intel, Amazon, etc etc, started in the US and then sold products to the world..


We sell to the world, and also employ the world.  Those US companies have done a crapload of offshoring.  


ummm, yeah, we all know large companies offshore. But isnt it better to grow inventive businesses from the US than have other countries do it and then sell that to the US? Many of those now large US companies started small in someone's garage, after all, they didnt immediately go offshore, they only did that when they were large enough to. Until they hit that point, they were small businesses that employed local people, and they still do employ local people, its just not 100% of their workforce. Many of those companies have branches, offices, subsidiaries in those other countries, after all... If Microsoft, etc cant get those inventive minds from the US and cant get enough visas for those other inventive minds to move to the US, then they will leave those minds where they are in the world and set up offices there..

btw, now even small companies can outsource of their work to India, etc, or get small projects done offshore.. Its pretty easy to do.. but shhhh, dont tell those small businesses that...

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/6/2011 8:03:49 AM >


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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 8:13:22 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

It would be interesting to compare how inventive each country is.. imo, the US has been quite influential, at least so far.. Microsoft, IBM, google, intel, Amazon, etc etc, started in the US and then sold products to the world..


We sell to the world, and also employ the world.  Those US companies have done a crapload of offshoring.  


ummm, yeah, we all know large companies offshore. But isnt it better to grow inventive businesses from the US than have other countries do it and then sell that to the US? Many of those now large US companies started small in someone's garage, after all, they didnt immediately go offshore, they only did that when they were large enough to. Until they hit that point, they were small businesses that employed local people, and they still do employ local people, its just not 100% of their workforce. Many of those companies have branches, offices, subsidiaries in those other countries, after all... If Microsoft, etc cant get those inventive minds from the US and cant get enough visas for those other inventive minds to move to the US, then they will leave those minds where they are in the world and set up offices there..

btw, now even small companies can outsource of their work to India, etc, or get small projects done offshore.. Its pretty easy to do.. but shhhh, dont tell those small businesses that...


You know, what you're talking about has fear running through a lot of financial people, meaning that the US might start adopting a more protectionist stance.


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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 8:26:41 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
You know, what you're talking about has fear running through a lot of financial people, meaning that the US might start adopting a more protectionist stance.

more protectionist in what ways, exactly?

why does it matter what these financial people think? And which financial people are you referring to?

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/6/2011 8:28:18 AM >


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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 8:29:17 AM   
NewOCDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

It would be interesting to compare how inventive each country is.. imo, the US has been quite influential, at least so far.. Microsoft, IBM, google, intel, Amazon, etc etc, started in the US and then sold products to the world..


We sell to the world, and also employ the world.  Those US companies have done a crapload of offshoring.  


ummm, yeah, we all know large companies offshore. But isnt it better to grow inventive businesses from the US than have other countries do it and then sell that to the US? Many of those now large US companies started small in someone's garage, after all, they didnt immediately go offshore, they only did that when they were large enough to. Until they hit that point, they were small businesses that employed local people, and they still do employ local people, its just not 100% of their workforce. Many of those companies have branches, offices, subsidiaries in those other countries, after all... If Microsoft, etc cant get those inventive minds from the US and cant get enough visas for those other inventive minds to move to the US, then they will leave those minds where they are in the world and set up offices there..

btw, now even small companies can outsource of their work to India, etc, or get small projects done offshore.. Its pretty easy to do.. but shhhh, dont tell those small businesses that...


We already know. A lot of our one off programming projects are bid out world wide.

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 8:51:30 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NewOCDaddy
We already know. A lot of our one off programming projects are bid out world wide.

lol Yes, that kind of thing has been happening for a while..

Last year I met a guy in SoCal, him and his partner have a bikini company.. sounded like they were just a small company but they own part of a factory in China and travel there frequently...


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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 8:58:06 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
You know, what you're talking about has fear running through a lot of financial people, meaning that the US might start adopting a more protectionist stance.

more protectionist in what ways, exactly?

why does it matter what these financial people think? And which financial people are you referring to?


Here's a link from the New York Times, which has several other links embedded.

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/protectionism_trade/index.html

Protectionism generally is referred to in terms of tariffs and import duties levied against goods coming into the country. Where it rises its head in terms of jobs has been in a lot of the rhetoric concerning outsourcing. Back during the bailout days, there was a huge outcry over some bank receiving bailout monies but outsourcing core jobs overseas.

I don't have a lot of time this morning to hunt links but here's a couple

http://mikenv.hubpages.com/hub/Great-News-Bailout-Banks-Outsourcing-Jobs-to-India

http://www.outsourcing-weblog.com/50226711/lou_dobbs_the_auto_bailout_and_outsourcing_and_outsourcing_contracts.php

I'll look for the link when I have time where the discussion was over a fear of the US trying to keep more jobs here by making off shoring less attractive.


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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 9:04:08 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Epytropos, there are two reasons why I believe that money in the hands of the lower classes will stimulate the economy more:

1. The velocity of money.  If someone goes and buys a pack of cigarettes or food, it will happen quickly. Thus, that money is returned to the economy, to be reused many times during a year.  If it goes into an investment vehicle, it will be held up for a while.
2. Investment money is vital to build corporate infrastructure.  But right now, we don't need more investment - we need more purchasing.  The reason that businesses are hurting and not hiring, is because people aren't buying.  We need more money used for buying, not for investment, and that's why I favor money going to the lower classes.


You are correct of course but in general. It is not only demand but the wealth to fulfill that demand and the great glorious 80% of the American economy...is broke. All the consumer can do is take on new debt and only about 80-90% of them. Yes, once out there it is called 'dollar velocity' more money changing more hands.

No. 2 seems to be OK for a fiscal conservative from Tex. that tripled that states debt to build infrastructure that resulted in LEADING the nation in creating jobs But the same man and a large minority of the right tell us we just can't do that on a national basis.

What FDR did was not to rely upon other levels of govt. (repub governors) to spread his stimulus, he created the institutions himself and they spent money on the various things that actually made the lower 48 much of what it is today, i.e., TVA, Hoover damn, 1000's of roads etc.

(kinkroids...refrain from anymore rehashing of the New Deal)

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 9:08:26 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
You know, what you're talking about has fear running through a lot of financial people, meaning that the US might start adopting a more protectionist stance.

more protectionist in what ways, exactly?

why does it matter what these financial people think? And which financial people are you referring to?

Protectionism in any form scares wall street/corp. investors. They invest in their ability to completely minimize any American employment. (foreign slaves) Seeking these kind of changes is now a fantasy, politicians would prefer to stay alive.

Protectionism is any form of law or tax (tariff) that would increase the cost to the consumer/user.

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 9:14:57 AM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Interestingly enough, when I went to the Centers web site, this is what I found...

The study, “An International Comparison of Small Business Employment,” reviews the most recently available, internationally comparable data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) to measure the share of small businesses in 22 rich democracies. The report finds:

The United States has the second lowest share of self-employed workers (7.2 percent).
The United States has among the lowest shares of employment in small businesses in manufacturing - only 11.1 percent of the U.S. manufacturing workforce is in enterprises with fewer than 20 employees. Eighteen other rich countries have a higher share of manufacturing employment in small enterprises, including Germany (13.0 percent), Sweden (14.4 percent), and France (18.0 percent).
U.S. small businesses are particularly weak in high-tech. The United States, for example, has the second lowest share of computer-related service employment in firms with fewer than 100 employees and the third lowest share of research and development related employment in firms with fewer than 100 employees.


http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/us-small-business-sector-among-the-smallest-in-the-world/


That does not mean "small businesses account for only 7.2 percent of total US employment"

This article was comparing countries. You could have a small business that is incorporated, or an LLC, and they would not be considered "self-employed".

Statistics are crazy numbers that people can skew to make them say whatever someone wants them to say if taken out of context.

its always suspicious imo when someone makes claims about stats like that but then doesnt provide any links/sources of those stats...

Imo, i think the US just has many more big businesses than those other countries so, then yeah, there will be less small businesses in high tech cuz there are likely more big businesses in high tech.. So if that is true, then guess that means go big or go home?...

It would be interesting to compare how inventive each country is.. imo, the US has been quite influential, at least so far.. Microsoft, IBM, google, intel, Amazon, etc etc, started in the US and then sold products to the world..


The key word was "self-employed" not "small business." I could see there being only 7.X% of the US population being self employed.

(taking liberties with the quote.)

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RE: Job, jobs, jobs - 9/6/2011 9:23:32 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Protectionism in any form scares wall street/corp. investors. They invest in their ability to completely minimize any American employment. (foreign slaves) Seeking these kind of changes is now a fantasy, politicians would prefer to stay alive.

Protectionism is any form of law or tax (tariff) that would increase the cost to the consumer/user.

Yes, and that in turn creates inflation.. which the govt also doesnt want..


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