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RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/5/2011 8:26:42 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you have any evidence the rebels are primarily islamists? Since the rebels were a popular uprising they will definitely have local support and with Nato and the UN security council supporting the operation it seems they will certainly have international support as well. Some soreheads in the AU and the League of Non Aligned will whine but that has no signifigance and will have no effect.


It would be surprising if they were not Mohammedans.

However as for them being funde Muslims - Jihadists plot to take over Libya

Or such minor things as The French report shows the “rebels” proclaiming that “Now, the time of jihad has arrived!” and, of course, screaming, “Allahu Akbar!” as they fire their guns into the air.

And doubtless they will receive as much help as they need from their brothers around the region, if money, men, or weapons are needed to make this happen.

Afghanistan redux.



A moonie organ is not a reliable source. please don't ever use it to support anything. The NRO column shows a profound misunderstanding of arab culture. Saying 'God is great' is quite common even with secular arabs.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/5/2011 8:30:01 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

which part do you want evidence for?


This part

quote:

the mujaheddin in Afghanistan were to a large degree foreigners."




OBL and Mullah Omar are two of the best known muhajeddin leaders and neither were Afghan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhajeddin#Afghan_civil_war

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/5/2011 8:42:33 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

which part do you want evidence for?


This part

quote:

the mujaheddin in Afghanistan were to a large degree foreigners."




OBL and Mullah Omar are two of the best known muhajeddin leaders and neither were Afghan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhajeddin#Afghan_civil_war


That's pretty sad stuff DK>

The mujhadeen in Afghanistan were a coalition of groups that included political parties, the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, innumerable local and regional warlords (eg Dostrum, Hekematyer) and cut across all religions and ethnicities. I didn't find anything in wiki to suggest Omar wasn't Afghani,( though in truth I only skimmed it). AFAIK, he was a village mullah before rising to prominence in the Taliban.

There were small but significant groups of Arabs and Pakistanis, most of whom fought as a subset of the Taliban. It is simply misleading to over-emphasise the numbers of foreign fighters, or the extent of their influence. OBL is probably the most significant exception here.

The mujhadeen were primarily a nationalist coalition dedicated to getting rid of the Russians. After the Russians left, they splintered and fought among themselves on multiple levels, in much the same way as Afghans have always done. From this fight, the Taliban emerged as a dominant force but not even the Taliban ever controlled the entirety of Afghanistan.

I have never heard any knowledgeable one query their nationalist agenda or the fact that the mujhadeen were overwhelmingly Afghani nationals.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/5/2011 8:53:07 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/5/2011 9:05:19 PM   
isoLadyOwner


Posts: 221
Joined: 4/22/2006
Status: offline 		Libya's women are openly celebrating? What evidence is there that this is a popular uprising?

The claim there's no evidence Obama's pet rebels in Libya might be islamists is absurd.

The BBC actually reported that Libya's rebels have a known jihadist commanding the rebel Tripoli forces.

Apparently the BBC has evidence that Abdul Hakim Belhaj who was a leader in the attack on Gaddafi's Bab al-Aziziya compound has been entrusted with command of the Tripoli Military Council.

Belhaj is, according to the BBC, also known as Abu Abdullah al-Sadiq to Jihadists. TheBBC goes on to report that this Libyan rebel leader was the former commander of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), a jihadist organisation with historical links to al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and the al-Jihad organisation in Egypt.

Here's a link to the BBC's article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14728565

The BBC tends to be pro Obama and NATO so the article is likely downplaying the situation.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/5/2011 9:06:38 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you have any evidence the rebels are primarily islamists? Since the rebels were a popular uprising they will definitely have local support and with Nato and the UN security council supporting the operation it seems they will certainly have international support as well. Some soreheads in the AU and the League of Non Aligned will whine but that has no signifigance and will have no effect.


It would be surprising if they were not Mohammedans.

However as for them being funde Muslims - Jihadists plot to take over Libya

Or such minor things as The French report shows the “rebels” proclaiming that “Now, the time of jihad has arrived!” and, of course, screaming, “Allahu Akbar!” as they fire their guns into the air.

And doubtless they will receive as much help as they need from their brothers around the region, if money, men, or weapons are needed to make this happen.

Afghanistan redux.



A moonie organ is not a reliable source. please don't ever use it to support anything. The NRO column shows a profound misunderstanding of arab culture. Saying 'God is great' is quite common even with secular arabs.


So which one is the "Moonie Organ?"  Never mind you Europens instructing me on just which one of your myriad of similar sources to quote.

Enjoy watching your imperialistic and corporate pipe dreams fade to oblivion.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 5:53:26 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The mujhadeen in Afghanistan were a coalition of groups that included political parties, the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, innumerable local and regional warlords (eg Dostrum, Hekematyer) and cut across all religions and ethnicities. I didn't find anything in wiki to suggest Omar wasn't Afghani,( though in truth I only skimmed it). AFAIK, he was a village mullah before rising to prominence in the Taliban

There were small but significant groups of Arabs and Pakistanis, most of whom fought as a subset of the Taliban. It is simply misleading to over-emphasise the numbers of foreign fighters, or the extent of their influence. OBL is probably the most significant exception here..

The Taliban, proper noun, did not exist until better than a decade after the Soviet's left Afghanistan. Omar is a Pakistani ISS agent, note the only consistent description is an eye patch.



quote:

The mujhadeen were primarily a nationalist coalition dedicated to getting rid of the Russians. After the Russians left, they splintered and fought among themselves on multiple levels, in much the same way as Afghans have always done. From this fight, the Taliban emerged as a dominant force but not even the Taliban ever controlled the entirety of Afghanistan.

I have never heard any knowledgeable one query their nationalist agenda or the fact that the mujhadeen were overwhelmingly Afghani nationals.

Then you know nothing of the facts. The muhajeddin leaders couldn't put together a post occupation government in large part because their leaders weren't Afghans.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 5:54:50 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you have any evidence the rebels are primarily islamists? Since the rebels were a popular uprising they will definitely have local support and with Nato and the UN security council supporting the operation it seems they will certainly have international support as well. Some soreheads in the AU and the League of Non Aligned will whine but that has no signifigance and will have no effect.


It would be surprising if they were not Mohammedans.

However as for them being funde Muslims - Jihadists plot to take over Libya

Or such minor things as The French report shows the “rebels” proclaiming that “Now, the time of jihad has arrived!” and, of course, screaming, “Allahu Akbar!” as they fire their guns into the air.

And doubtless they will receive as much help as they need from their brothers around the region, if money, men, or weapons are needed to make this happen.

Afghanistan redux.



A moonie organ is not a reliable source. please don't ever use it to support anything. The NRO column shows a profound misunderstanding of arab culture. Saying 'God is great' is quite common even with secular arabs.


So which one is the "Moonie Organ?"  Never mind you Europens instructing me on just which one of your myriad of similar sources to quote.

Enjoy watching your imperialistic and corporate pipe dreams fade to oblivion.


If you don't know anything about the Washington Times why are you using it as a source?

BTW I'm not European.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 7:12:32 AM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you have any evidence the rebels are primarily islamists? Since the rebels were a popular uprising they will definitely have local support and with Nato and the UN security council supporting the operation it seems they will certainly have international support as well. Some soreheads in the AU and the League of Non Aligned will whine but that has no signifigance and will have no effect.


It would be surprising if they were not Mohammedans.

However as for them being funde Muslims - Jihadists plot to take over Libya

Or such minor things as The French report shows the “rebels” proclaiming that “Now, the time of jihad has arrived!” and, of course, screaming, “Allahu Akbar!” as they fire their guns into the air.

And doubtless they will receive as much help as they need from their brothers around the region, if money, men, or weapons are needed to make this happen.

Afghanistan redux.



A moonie organ is not a reliable source. please don't ever use it to support anything. The NRO column shows a profound misunderstanding of arab culture. Saying 'God is great' is quite common even with secular arabs.


So which one is the "Moonie Organ?"  Never mind you Europens instructing me on just which one of your myriad of similar sources to quote.

Enjoy watching your imperialistic and corporate pipe dreams fade to oblivion.


If you don't know anything about the Washington Times why are you using it as a source?

BTW I'm not European.


So what other news services do these "Moonies" operate, to your chagrin?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 10:18:59 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker
So what other news services do these "Moonies" operate, to your chagrin?

Washington Times, UPI and a number of smallish non english papers under the News World Communications company.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 1:07:28 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker
So what other news services do these "Moonies" operate, to your chagrin?

Washington Times, UPI and a number of smallish non english papers under the News World Communications company.



Are the BBC, FOX News, Asian Time and the Torygraph all ran by some group that offends you, or is it safe to quote them on the matter of known Al Qaeda membership permeating the rebel ranks and leadership?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 3:34:12 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker
So what other news services do these "Moonies" operate, to your chagrin?

Washington Times, UPI and a number of smallish non english papers under the News World Communications company.



Are the BBC, FOX News, Asian Time and the Torygraph all ran by some group that offends you, or is it safe to quote them on the matter of known Al Qaeda membership permeating the rebel ranks and leadership?


If it's more than speculation.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 3:46:12 PM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Have you ever bitched about your fellow moonbat leftists using thinkprogress or huffpo propaganda outlets as sources

No, and the Washington Times is consistently far more objective so STFU already

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker
So what other news services do these "Moonies" operate, to your chagrin?

Washington Times, UPI and a number of smallish non english papers under the News World Communications company.



Are the BBC, FOX News, Asian Time and the Torygraph all ran by some group that offends you, or is it safe to quote them on the matter of known Al Qaeda membership permeating the rebel ranks and leadership?


If it's more than speculation.


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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 3:49:19 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Have you ever bitched about your fellow moonbat leftists using thinkprogress or huffpo propaganda outlets as sources

No, and the Washington Times is consistently far more objective so STFU already


You routinely reject even mainstream sources and you want to whine because I don't trust anything run by a guy who had himself crowned God who also happens to be a convicted felon?

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 3:57:31 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		The interesting thing to me, was KDaffy was running a place with socializded health care, cradle to grave welfare, state subsidized fuel and food, women's rights. yada yada, in short a soicalist paradise, and the socialists in the UK and the EU and their hangers on in North America are all in favor of bring this down and replacing in with a fundamentalist Muslim state.

But I see women's groups are already taking up arms over some of the "improvements" for women the "rebels' say they have planned.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 4:07:49 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Have you ever bitched about your fellow moonbat leftists using thinkprogress or huffpo propaganda outlets as sources

No, and the Washington Times is consistently far more objective so STFU already


You routinely reject even mainstream sources and you want to whine because I don't trust anything run by a guy who had himself crowned God who also happens to be a convicted felon?


You don't like the BBC either. What is your excuse in that regard, is it because a woman crowned by the grace of some desert god is the theoretical owner of that state media establishment too?

Perhaps you can cite us some media which contains any evidence of your aparent theory, i.e. the rebels are almost all liberal democrats doubtlessly lead by school teachers, social workers and civil rights attorneys.

Even the Russians at Pravda claims AQ membership among the rebel ranks -

quote:

This quite literally is a test of the West's proposed global governance system. As we watch Al-Qaeda rebels move westward to Tripoli with US air support, and as they conduct an array of crimes against humanity, we can see just how ignoble, morally bankrupt, and self-serving the true intentions of global governance really are. And even as the war's outcome rests in uncertainty, the "Libyan Precedent" is already being wielded against Syria and other nation-states resisting openly admitted, foreign-funded sedition.
-
Libya at any Cost


Doubtless they have some anti-socialist agenda too.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 4:35:09 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

which part do you want evidence for?


This part

quote:

the mujaheddin in Afghanistan were to a large degree foreigners."




OBL and Mullah Omar are two of the best known muhajeddin leaders and neither were Afghan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhajeddin#Afghan_civil_war



The pressence of these two men is your validation for your statement that the muhajeddin was to a large degree foreigners?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/6/2011 4:40:14 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 4:42:01 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

the Washington Times is consistently far more objective so STFU already



LOL

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 4:43:07 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
You are lying, but thats normal for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Have you ever bitched about your fellow moonbat leftists using thinkprogress or huffpo propaganda outlets as sources

No, and the Washington Times is consistently far more objective so STFU already


You routinely reject even mainstream sources and you want to whine because I don't trust anything run by a guy who had himself crowned God who also happens to be a convicted felon?


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 4:59:44 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You are lying, but thats normal for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Have you ever bitched about your fellow moonbat leftists using thinkprogress or huffpo propaganda outlets as sources

No, and the Washington Times is consistently far more objective so STFU already


You routinely reject even mainstream sources and you want to whine because I don't trust anything run by a guy who had himself crowned God who also happens to be a convicted felon?


quote:

Washington Times


where is he lying exactly???

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(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Afghanistan in the 80's vs Libya now - 9/6/2011 5:01:32 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		Interesting, even think tanks are starting to see that this might just not go as planned -

quote:

The International Institute for Strategic Studies said the past year would be remembered as the year of the Arab awakening, but cautioned: “It will not be remembered, necessarily, as the year in which democracy spread.” John Chipman, the director-general of the institute, said the transitions that had taken place remain “half-baked” and added: “The promise of more democratic outcomes remains laced with the risk that sects, military institutions or other groups might still hijack the process.” Launching the think tank’s annual strategic survey, he added: “The fear emerged that Islamist parties would gain greater hold on the political systems that emerged from the rebellions.” He said there would now be a struggle between security forces, liberal elements and Islamist parties to create governments in the region and that political competition founded on things that were hard to change — such as tribe, ethnicity, sect or religion — “is just demagoguery by other means”.


And

quote:

“The room for mavericks and rogues to manoeuvre for their own gain is thus expanded. Who will come to the rescue if these start doing real damage?” asked Mr Chipman.
 The commander of Israel’s Home Front force has warned that the risk of all-out war had increased in the Middle East. Maj Gen Eyal Eisenberg said in Tel Aviv: “What was considered as the spring of the Arab people could turn into a radical Islamic winter, and this raises the likelihood of an all-out war in the region.”


Libya: 'Arab awakening’ could still disintegrate



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 40
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