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RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 11:18:29 AM

Arpig

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I am opposed to the death penalty period, but the fact is that a black is far more likely to get the death penalty than a white is.

Hardly a cop out.

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RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 11:26:22 AM

Marc2b

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I am against the death penalty. Not because I don't think there are some low life scumbags who deserve it (oh, there are plenty of people who deserve it) but because there is simply no way to ensure that only the guilty are put to death. If we discover that someone sitting in prision for years has been wrongly convicted, we can still give them something of their life back... there is no way to give back life to the dead.

I found it rather disturbing how the audience applauded the number of exacutions... at least, that was the impression I got.

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RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 1:22:38 PM

MileHighM

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I think the death penalty has come to symbolize more than form of punishment in the US. As DomYngBlk points out, it represents oppression. Others believe it represents the barbaric and uncivilized side of our society. Yet you see some see it as justice, balancing the scales. While, I think what the audience was clapping for, some see it as a statement that somehow society still has some order. Arguably from what I have seen and heard from many death penalty supporters is that their real concerns is with the revolving door prison system that is in existence in the US. The rate of recidivism amungst criminals has always been a hotly debated subject.

I think most people see prison as something needed for more than a house for punishment (they usually call it the Department of Corrections), but I don't think we actually see the system producing productive citizens, improving the lives the of prisoners and the community. Many people refere to it as nothing more than criminal college. You go to become a better criminal (some street gangs expect you to spend some time inside). For the people who applauded at the debate, beyond those who see it as just act, they see it as something that represents the finality of the law. That it can permenantly keep someone from committing another crime.

Me, I wouldn't care much about the death penalty if we could validate 100% that it is either effective or ineffective. I am concerned with the legal justice system as a whole though. The US has a massive prison population relative to the overall population. Clearly, something isn't working. The whole system needs retooling. As of now, it is safe to say the death penalty is useless as a form of punishment in preventing crime in the civilian population.

However, I think you can safely reserve it for criminals who kill each other in prison. Pretty obvious they aren't innocent people. What more can you really do once they are already inside other than to pay for the rest of their existence inside? Ultimately, why care to improve if you feel there is no hope? I think convicts (especially first offenders) need to have a sense there is a future if they try to have one. Yet, they should know that if they don't try and only make matters worse there will be a limit to how much damage they can do.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 23

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 3:00:53 PM

lovmuffin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Think I posted the link yesterday that pertained to this. The Death Penalty is administered in a racist manner in these here United States of America. Until that changes I be against it.

I mostly agree with that and I'm aware there is some discrepancy in the way the death penalty is administered. Why is that exactly ? I ask why as not in generalizations but what are the details. (I'm not asking for links or anything as much as I'm curious) I think we should be putting more white people to death too given the same types of crimes.

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Post #: 24

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 3:43:32 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Without getting into the morality (or not) of the death penalty, it isn't a federal issue, except potentially judicially. Decisions regarding penalties for crimes committed in each state are made by that state. The feds can't mandate that states use the death penalty, for example. At most, federal courts can find it to be cruel and unusual. A prez can use that issue as a litmus test in appointing federal judges who might someday be in a position to decide the constitutionality of the DP, but other than that, how would the feds be involved?
.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

I get a bit bored watching these things, they seem to run in circles a lot.
But this part actually kept me interested a bit and looks like a good debate.

http://www.therightscoop.com/rick-perry-fabulously-defends-texas-death-penalty/

How do you feel about the death penalty? Do you worry if Perry wins the presidency it will be a federal issue, since he seems to feel so strong about it?

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to tolovetolaugh)

Post #: 25

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 3:45:53 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Could be because nonwhites are more likely to be indigent and have to rely on court appointed counsel. Could be because juries and judges have racial biases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Think I posted the link yesterday that pertained to this. The Death Penalty is administered in a racist manner in these here United States of America. Until that changes I be against it.

I mostly agree with that and I'm aware there is some discrepancy in the way the death penalty is administered. Why is that exactly ? I ask why as not in generalizations but what are the details. (I'm not asking for links or anything as much as I'm curious) I think we should be putting more white people to death too given the same types of crimes.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 26

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 3:48:16 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Think I posted the link yesterday that pertained to this. The Death Penalty is administered in a racist manner in these here United States of America. Until that changes I be against it.

I mostly agree with that and I'm aware there is some discrepancy in the way the death penalty is administered. Why is that exactly ? I ask why as not in generalizations but what are the details. (I'm not asking for links or anything as much as I'm curious) I think we should be putting more white people to death too given the same types of crimes.

First off all seeking the death penalty for a particular crime is something the prosecutor chooses to pursue. Prosecutors choose to seek the death penalty more often against minority suspects. Second the jury must both convict the suspect but also find him eligible for the death penalty in the penalty phase of the trial. Juries tend to find minorities guilty and eligible more often than whites.

The Jeanine Nicarico case is very informative. The initial trial was of 2 hispanic men and 1 white man. While they were tried together each had their own seperate jury. The 2 hispanic men were both found guilty and sentenced to death. The white man's jury deadlocked and never reached a verdict. The prosecution chose not to retry the white man. All 3 were completely innocent and no physical evidence was presented to the juries implicating any of the 3.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 27

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 3:50:18 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Without getting into the morality (or not) of the death penalty, it isn't a federal issue, except potentially judicially. Decisions regarding penalties for crimes committed in each state are made by that state. The feds can't mandate that states use the death penalty, for example. At most, federal courts can find it to be cruel and unusual. A prez can use that issue as a litmus test in appointing federal judges who might someday be in a position to decide the constitutionality of the DP, but other than that, how would the feds be involved?

Due to various "tough on crime" federal elected officials there is now a plethora of crimes that carry the federal death penalty.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 28

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 3:55:18 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Thanks for clearing that up. Still, wouldn't that be a legislative decision, not an executive one?
It looks like 69 defendants have been sentenced since 1988 under the federal death penalty.
26 blacks, 8 latinos, 1 Native American, and 23 whites.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Without getting into the morality (or not) of the death penalty, it isn't a federal issue, except potentially judicially. Decisions regarding penalties for crimes committed in each state are made by that state. The feds can't mandate that states use the death penalty, for example. At most, federal courts can find it to be cruel and unusual. A prez can use that issue as a litmus test in appointing federal judges who might someday be in a position to decide the constitutionality of the DP, but other than that, how would the feds be involved?

Due to various "tough on crime" federal elected officials there is now a plethora of crimes that carry the federal death penalty.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 29

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 4:06:20 PM

Fightdirecto

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Governor Perry probably has no problem with the death penalty in his state because he spends much of his private time (when not with oilmen) with Christian Reconstructionists/Dominionists who believe strongly in righteousness of the death penalty - not just for murder or rape but also for children who disobey their parents, men & women who commit adultery, women who get abortions and the doctors that perform them, people who sell or possess pornography, and anyone who violates the Ten Commandments.

Whether Governor Perry personally believes this or not, their influence (and their financial support for his Presidential campaign) makes it easy for him to support the death penalty - whether the person is actually guilty of the crime alleged or not.

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 9/8/2011 4:10:37 PM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 4:08:23 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Thanks for clearing that up. Still, wouldn't that be a legislative decision, not an executive one?
It looks like 69 defendants have been sentenced since 1988 under the federal death penalty.
26 blacks, 8 latinos, 1 Native American, and 23 whites.

The President can grant clemency or outright pardon federal inmates.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 31

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 4:10:01 PM

Fightdirecto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
First off seeking the death penalty for a particular crime is something the prosecutor chooses to pursue.

Prosecutors choose to pursue the death penalty primarily for two reasons -

(a) They are running for re-election, or

(b) They are trying to get the nomination and election to a higher office (i.e. Governor, Congressman, Senator, etc.)

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 32

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 4:10:10 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Right, but he can't by himself change the law regarding the DP. So now what we know about Perry is he is unlikely to grant clemency or pardons in federal cases. I wonder why he even bothered to bring the issue up.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 33

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 4:15:20 PM

Fightdirecto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
I wonder why he even bothered to bring the issue up.

To prove to the "law-and-order" voters that he is not "soft on crime" and to prove to the Christian Reconstructionists/Dominionists that he's "one of them".

He figures it will get him more votes trumpeting his support for the death penalty than he will lose for trumpeting his support for the death penalty.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 34

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 4:22:03 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Pandering in other words. My god, it is going to feel like an eternity until the election.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 35

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 5:00:46 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Perhaps the bleakest fact of all is that the death penalty is imposed not only in a freakish and discriminatory manner, but also in some cases upon defendants who are actually innocent. -Justice William J. Brennan, Jr., 1994

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty

http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/523

This report tells the stories of people like Rolando Cruz, released after 10 years on Illinois's death row, despite the fact that another man had confessed to the crime shortly after his conviction; and Ricardo Aldape Guerra, who returned to Mexico after 15 years on Texas's death row because of a prosecution that a federal judge called outrageous and designed to simply achieve another notch on the prosecutor's guns.

http://robtshepherd.tripod.com/innocent.html

For every 7 executions - 486 since 1976 - 1 other prisoner on death row has been found innocent.

http://officeofstrategicinfluence.com/deathpenalty/

Willie Williams and Joseph Nichols both shot at their murder victim, but only one hit him. In order to execute both, Texas argued that each had killed the man; in one trial, the state argued that Mr. Williams had shot the victim and Mr. Nichols had missed, and in the next trial, the state argued that Mr. Nichols had shot the victim and Mr. Williams had missed. Both were convicted of capital murder. Mr. Williams was executed by Gov. Bush; Mr. Nichols is still on death row.

Exactly, but it's more than that.

If I kill someone out of revenge then I am guilty of murder.

Yet we sanction executions by the state for revenge by calling it justice.

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 36

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 5:55:33 PM

lovmuffin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Governor Perry probably has no problem with the death penalty in his state because he spends much of his private time (when not with oilmen) with Christian Reconstructionists/Dominionists who believe strongly in righteousness of the death penalty - not just for murder or rape but also for children who disobey their parents, men & women who commit adultery, women who get abortions and the doctors that perform them, people who sell or possess pornography, and anyone who violates the Ten Commandments.

Whether Governor Perry personally believes this or not, their influence (and their financial support for his Presidential campaign) makes it easy for him to support the death penalty - whether the person is actually guilty of the crime alleged or not.

That is not only a stretch but the notion or fact that you believe certain religious Perry supporters are for the death penalty in cases where "children who disobey their parents, men & women who commit adultery, women who get abortions and the doctors that perform them, people who sell or possess pornography, and anyone who violates the Ten Commandments" is whacked out. There is a whole lot of far out stuff posted on this board but that one is way up there.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 37

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 6:39:46 PM

Fightdirecto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
That is not only a stretch but the notion or fact that you believe certain religious Perry supporters are for the death penalty in cases where "children who disobey their parents, men & women who commit adultery, women who get abortions and the doctors that perform them, people who sell or possess pornography, and anyone who violates the Ten Commandments" is whacked out. There is a whole lot of far out stuff posted on this board but that one is way up there.

Christian Reconstruction/Dominionism hs been around for quite a while. They tried to "steeplejack" my Dad's church out from under him in 2001.

(For an example of steeplejacking, see Choosing Unity Over Steeplejacking )

It takes only a moment to find information about Christian Reconstruction/Dominionism on the Internet

Just a few examples:

Theocracywatch.org,

Who is Trying to Turn America Into a Theocracy?,

Inside the Christian Right Dominionist Movement That's Undermining Democracy

It also takes only a moment to look at the speakers of Governor Perry's recent "Response"/public prayer meeting to see that many of them are Christian Reconstructionists/Dominionists.

There is an old adage: "If you lie down with the dogs - you'll get fleas". Governor Perry has chosen to lie down with these "dogs", either to con them into supporting him or because he actually shares some or all of their beliefs.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 38

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 7:47:14 PM

anniezz338

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This is about the ONLY thing I agree with Perry on. I live in Houston and watching the local news is like watching a horror movie. Pregnant mother killed in car jacking, convicted murderer shouts at mother who's daughter he raped and killed "shut the fuck up, i don't care what you think, your daughter was a piece of shit", officers killed in the line of duty, missing children, body found in vacant lot. EVERY DAY.

Yes, it's messed up when innocents are convicted and executed. But the end didn't kill them, the investigators and the judicial system did.

And no, i'm not religious.

< Message edited by anniezz338 -- 9/8/2011 7:50:19 PM >

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(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 39

RE: Perry on the death penalty cracked me up, how do yo... - 9/8/2011 8:08:20 PM

Fightdirecto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anniezz338
Yes, it's messed up when innocents are convicted and executed. But the end didn't kill them, the investigators and the judicial system did.

And "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs."

We can put that on your tombstone when you’re executed in Texas for a crime you didn’t commit.

And, BTW, every time any innocent person is jailed and/or executed for a crime they didn't commit, you're not any safer and neither is society - because the person(s) who did commit the crime are running around free to commit new crimes.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to anniezz338)

Post #: 40

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