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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 12:50:47 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

PHUQ no...firelplay too huh:) coool


PS any news on how fast the bill is being set upon the world???
I cant wait for this week to start



I don't care about the bill now that we are talking about fire play.

One has to have priorities.









< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/11/2011 12:55:14 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 1:00:33 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I cant wait for this week to start




I feel the same way about Boardwalk Empire! 

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 1:30:52 PM   
Lucylastic


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ooooooh me tooo:)
Mind you there's more than a few coming back I'm looking forward to saving
Psst Rich on an aside...
Remember a while ago I gave up smoking and you commented? well today is my second year anniversary..not one cigarette has passed my lips:)


RML?... I like the way you think:)
edited for smelling mistrake

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 9/11/2011 1:32:54 PM >


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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 1:31:55 PM   
farglebargle


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TOBACCO IS WACKO! ( Congrats! )

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 1:38:38 PM   
TheHeretic


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Congrats, Lucy! 

I'm going to have to give it another go here.  Way too much work stress these days to even think about adding my own nicotine withdrawal to the mix, and I'm not doing the replacement therapy again.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 1:40:37 PM   
farglebargle


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I found the worst part of quitting cigarettes was that .... I *still* liked to smoke.

So I smoke pot instead. It helps lower my blood pressure, my knees don't ache quite as much, and some studies say it prevents cancer. And I still enjoy a good smoke.

Now, I'm not *recommending* anyone do this, but it's worked for me.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 1:51:41 PM   
Lucylastic


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I managed it because (I believe) I was ready to quit, between me n my hubby we smoked 80 years altogether, we both quit, I had been having almost continuous bronchitis pneumonia twice, and the "horrendous morning cough" also a matter of not being willing to pay stupid money for them. We both quit cold turkey.
I joked today about celebrating with a ciggy ...only half jokingly because yes I LIKE to smoke... but laughed it off. Im feeling better in my health.
Im not a horrid born again smoker tho...I believe you will smoke until you are "ready" to quit, until then forcing yourself is pointless. im not a holier than thou smoker, I walked past a couple of people smoking outside a store the other day and lingered just smelling the fragrant smoke...to say I wont slip up is also pointless but so far I havent:)
When the time comes... I hope you get thru it:)


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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 2:29:51 PM   
samboct


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Treasure

Thanks for the point about the Republican attempts at legislation- it is easy to fall into the trap that they're not doing anything.

My problem is that its very hard to avoid painting Republicans with a broad brush when they act in concert. On one hand, one is tempted to say that there must be Republican senators and congressmen who believe that they're doing the right thing. On the other hand, I have a lot of trouble with someone like Judd Gregg who since Obama has gotten in office, has announced he's a deficit hawk. Where was this hawkishness when George Bush's administration was running up the debt?

Furthermore, I have a lot of trouble with ideologues who refuse to accept evidence if it interferes with their world view. Perry on climate change and his aversion to DNA testing come to mind. But OK, I hear your point that out there, there must be some reasonable Republicans.

What I keep hoping for is that a few Republicans are going to defect from the stranglehold that Boehner and Cantor have on them, because I find the idea of putting the party ahead of the country to be a problem. How can the interests of so many varied constituents just fall in line with the Republican planks?


Sam

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 2:43:16 PM   
Lucylastic


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we have some reasonable republican.s on this board Sam... unfortunately they are in short supply in politics right now.
I dont know what it will take to get them where they belong..I feel its going to get a lot worse , more ridiculous and more "dangerous" before they find their way back.
While they allow the crazies to pollute the world, like they do here, they arent gonna be any good to the country

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 3:59:48 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Treasure

Thanks for the point about the Republican attempts at legislation- it is easy to fall into the trap that they're not doing anything.

My problem is that its very hard to avoid painting Republicans with a broad brush when they act in concert. On one hand, one is tempted to say that there must be Republican senators and congressmen who believe that they're doing the right thing. On the other hand, I have a lot of trouble with someone like Judd Gregg who since Obama has gotten in office, has announced he's a deficit hawk. Where was this hawkishness when George Bush's administration was running up the debt?

Furthermore, I have a lot of trouble with ideologues who refuse to accept evidence if it interferes with their world view. Perry on climate change and his aversion to DNA testing come to mind. But OK, I hear your point that out there, there must be some reasonable Republicans.

What I keep hoping for is that a few Republicans are going to defect from the stranglehold that Boehner and Cantor have on them, because I find the idea of putting the party ahead of the country to be a problem. How can the interests of so many varied constituents just fall in line with the Republican planks?


Sam


You're welcome, Sam.  We do have to be careful with that word "reasonable", though, as it is really a judgement call. 

Just what makes a Republican reasonable?

The answer is going to depend on the person answering, just the same as if I'd asked, "what makes a Democrat reasonable?"

While we can define our two party system with black and white filters... Democrats believe "this" and Republicans believe "that"...  we real people live in a colorful world. 

I am sure that there are a few people who fit neatly into one party's pocket or the other, but I believe that most people simply pick the party that most closely resembles their personal beliefs.  If they don't, they may end up feeling disenfranchised... such as not being able to vote in primaries, and thus not having any say in who will finally be on the ballot.  Or, they feel unrepresented in the end.

Many times, people will identify with a party more for the methods or ideology represented rather than specific platform points.  For example, I identify as Republican, but that is more because I lean toward the conservative side... even when I might support a liberal idea (ie. abortion).  I could just as easily do so while claiming to be a Democrat, but I don't find the Democratic methodology fits me.  Believe me when I say that I don't always find the Republican methodology fitting, either... but less often.  In some things, Libertarian fits me best, in others I am an island unto myself. 

In judging reasonableness, I'm going to consider a Republican Representative to be "reasonable" when his views/methods/ideology are closer to my own.  But a hardline Republican may consider the same Representative to be "unreasonable".   And we may both agree that this Republican Representative is "reasonable", but it may not be for the same reasons.  I may like his fiscal policies but loath his social ones, and you may feel exactly the opposite.

So is the Republican Representative reasonable, or not?

See my point?

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 4:46:43 PM   
samboct


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Hi Treasure

I have no problem with folks on this board who identify as Republicans- some are clearly more entertaining than others, but there does seem to be a dearth of individuals with their own viewpoint. Maybe you'd say the same thing about the lefties- dunno. Too many people seem to echo Fox DisNews. And people in the US are going to fight over their political differences- got no problems with that, and I'm not sure that there's been any dramatic change over the years. In terms of reasonable? If they can get their viewpoint across, especially without ad hominem arguments, that's a plus in my book. Being intelligible is another plus. Coming up with something I hadn't thought of- well, that gets lots of bonus points- and it does happen here which is one of the reasons why I enjoy these forums. Wouldn't be much fun if everybody thought the same. Kinky girls here too- another plus, although truth be told, I've never met anyone in person that I've discussed things with on the forums, but there have been some friendships. (pen pals counts as friends in my book).

However, Congress is another matter. I do tend to view Congress these days as dysfunctional, and as noted earlier, I think Jim Cooper, Blue Dog Democrat nailed it perfectly when he laid it on the Newt.

I have a different version of reasonable for an elected representative-

1) Are their goals to put the needs of the country first or does the order go: 1) Me, 2) the Republican party, 3) my constituents, 4) the country.
2) Are they willing to think for themselves? I don't see the need for representatives that just follow what Grover Norquist wants. Unfortunately, that seems to be what most of the Republicans in Congress are doing.
3) Are they willing to do the right thing even if it means breaking ranks with the party?

There have been times when there's been a flash of the old McCain, I think in terms of denouncing torture when OBL was killed. Gotta admire him for that one. It's just hard to come up with more examples because what sticks in the head are basically the bloc of Republicans all saying the same thing.

I'm wondering if technology has had something to do with this. Do Congressmen get more or less mail than they used to, now that e-mail has replaced the letter? Also- how prevalent is the idea of- if you're not in my district- I'm not listening to you. I know my congressman does this, and it's not something I admire. Good ideas can come from anywhere- even from people outside the district. Has this idea helped the Republicans maintain a bloc- so that they don't hear what voters in other parts of the country want? Seems to me that if a Congressman authors a bill- he/she should expect to hear from everybody that bill will impact- not only the people in their own district.

Note- Firm and I have had discussions on the direction that the Republican party has taken in years past. From my perspective, the path that the party is on is destructive- not only to the party, but to the country. I don't like the idea of the Republican party imploding- parties need checks and balances, and if the Republican party breaks up, there may be no effective challenge to the Democrats. I don't see that as a good idea.


Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/11/2011 4:53:16 PM >

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 5:05:27 PM   
Steponme73


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The speech delivery was A+...the content of the speech was F. Like all of his speeches, he wants to spend our money on Government and screw those who don't have jobs. I am really hoping he is a one term president.

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 6:00:39 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

I have a different version of reasonable for an elected representative-

1) Are their goals to put the needs of the country first...


But see... our versions aren't different, after all.  It just so happens that I believe that my views/methods/ideology are what is best to meet the needs of this Country!  

As far as Congressmen go... and all politicians, if truth be told... I think they are all out of touch with the people.  Both with their constituents and the general population. 

It used to be that Farmer Joe down the street could easily run for office if he wanted.  I'm not sure that ever really happened much; I suspect that from the creation of this Country we've been looking at career politicians.  However, it does seem that in the past few decades there has been a great rift between the politicians and the people. 

It may have to do with the weight of expectations placed on Congressmen.  One hundred seventy-five years ago, there wasn't nearly as much for Congress to legislate.  Today, we hold Washington responsible for just about every aspect of our lives. 

There's also the population difference... the number of House Representatives was fixed back in 1911 at 435 members.  At that time, the US population was 91,972,266... meaning each Representative represented around 200,000 people.  Today we have the same number of Representatives, but the population is 307,006,550.  That means each Representative is now representing over 700,000 people.

I can imagine it would be hard to keep up with the fickle demands of nearly three-quarters of a million people who have a world of information now at their disposal.

I also think there are just some seriously crooked people in politics. 

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 9/11/2011 6:02:20 PM >

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 6:08:56 PM   
Lucylastic


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<snip> I also think there are just some seriously crooked people in politics.</snip>
in all parties, in all jurisdictions and every country every shade and belief.
Totally agree with you there

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 6:16:34 PM   
samboct


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Hi Treasure

I'm going to see if I can find Jim Cooper's comments on why Congress is dysfunctional. I'm sorry, I've met too many Congressman, Senators, and governors to believe that most folks in gov't are crooked. However, there's something about a few bad apples can spoil a barrel...Mind you, I've also met a judge that was corrupt as all get out (he's in PA-retired) as well as an ex-gov of CT who did time for kickbacks, so I've seen some folks that clearly are crooked. I just don't think that's the standard. So I think what Jim Cooper came up with is correct.

Sam

OK- found it. It's not long- highly recommended reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/opinion/the-last-moderate.html?scp=1&sq=jim%20cooper&st=cse

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/11/2011 6:20:39 PM >

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/11/2011 10:19:56 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Hi Treasure

I'm going to see if I can find Jim Cooper's comments on why Congress is dysfunctional. I'm sorry, I've met too many Congressman, Senators, and governors to believe that most folks in gov't are crooked. However, there's something about a few bad apples can spoil a barrel...Mind you, I've also met a judge that was corrupt as all get out (he's in PA-retired) as well as an ex-gov of CT who did time for kickbacks, so I've seen some folks that clearly are crooked. I just don't think that's the standard. So I think what Jim Cooper came up with is correct.

Sam

OK- found it. It's not long- highly recommended reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/opinion/the-last-moderate.html?scp=1&sq=jim%20cooper&st=cse


An interesting read, Sam, and one that doesn't surprise me.

Don't get me wrong... when I said, "I also think there are just some seriously crooked people in politics", I didn't say most.  As my post indicated, I really think that there is more a problem with the environment. 

I cannot dismiss the comments of Mr. Cooper, at all, and I do think the environment of Congress is such that it has helped to breed the problems he discusses.  Unfortunately one of the biggest issues that stems from the environment involves communication... an interesting thing to lose in this age of high tech and high speed communication.

I believe that with the increased responsibility and larger constituency, legislators are having to rely more on information being fed to them (via staff and Party representatives) and though our modern methods of communication.  Unfortunately, I feel those methods are skewing the message.

It would be unfair of me to lay blame at any one particular set of feet... Lord only knows there is enough blame to go around... but the media plays a very large part in this problem.  I think the news agencies are responsible for distorting much of the information all for the sake of sensationalism and sales. 

I think most people would agree that hearing Mr. or Ms. Average Responsible Citizen talking about issues that impact their lives isn't nearly as compelling as watching some fringe element passionately demonstrate or pontificate concerning their campaign. 

In the same respect, watching our Congress handling mundane matters doesn't make for very interesting TV.  So we get dramatic sound bytes, stressing the conflict.

I believe the media magnifies problems and distracts legislators from some of those more mundane (but important) issues that need addressing.  (How much time, money and effort has been wasted trying to crucify some Politician "violator" outed by the media?) 

And if a popular national news program does a feature story on, say... an earthquake that caused severe issues with nuclear reactors in Japan, or a school system caught fudging test numbers, or a popular device is potentially linked to health issues... and implies or questions or speculates that the same thing could happen in our own backyard, it might cause viewers to reach out to their legislators to "do something" to prevent it. 

That isn't to say that the issues being raised aren't valid, but that our legislators can only handle so many things at one time.  If the majority of the communications they are receiving are being influence by what the media has decided will be the most exciting story of the day, then they are likely going to get the impression that that is what their constituents are most concerned about... and where their attention should be.

To be honest, I seriously doubt that the majority of Americans bother to ever contact their Senator or Representative (if they even know who they are).  People are only going to contact them when their emotions have been raised, and let's face it, news programs try to appeal to our emotions.  That's how they make money.

Another huge problem in the communication pipeline is lobbyists.  Lobbying is big business and a great deal of money spent trying to influence legislation. If a harried legislator with a full schedule is constantly being exposed to communications stemming from lobbyist action, he'll likely get the impression that those issues presented are ones he needs to be concerned about.

Anyway, I'm tired and I've rambled on... probably not making a whole lot of sense.  But I honestly believe our Congress lives in a bubble.  Their world is so far removed from ours, that it isn't surprising they've developed warped methods of working.

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/12/2011 6:20:53 AM   
samboct


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Hi Treasure

The media has always distorted things- read the headlines the day of the Titanic disaster in New York- only the Times was close. But what's happened is that many news outlets have been gobbled up into a corporate octopus, and that octopus has unified many of the disparate voices in the land- not a positive thing in my book.

In terms of communications with constituents- congressmen have never heard from the indigent- either the cost of a stamp was too high, or the cost of email is too high (need a computer.) However, in the old days, staffers in congressional offices used to weigh the volume of paper on an issue to decide which way the voters were feeling- I suspect that email makes it easier. I'm not sure that the issues facing Congress have really gotten more complex- it's just that we always view the past as a simpler time, and that's just not accurate. There's also no denying that representatives now have larger numbers of folks to represent, but it also gives outsize influence on voters in unpopulated states.

But I accept the thesis that certain individuals can grab power and alter the path of a society. As an example, I don't believe that Germany would have fallen into Nazism is Adolf Hitler hadn't come along- his compelling oratory made his kooky ideas sound palatable to the public, and the rich folks thought that they could control him- they turned out to be wrong. While circumstances set up to need heroes, a hero or a villain doesn't necessarily come along.

But I recall the days when Newt was Speaker- and the power grab was impressive. I suspect he was the type of individual that the framers of our Constitution worried about and rightly so.

Jim Cooper talks about Congress as a lynch mob, i.e. we're going to get so and so. I don't think the media is any more of an enabler of this type of activity than it was a century ago, when the Senate was a business club- i.e. the floor welcomes the Senator from the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe, or the Senator from DuPont. Hobart Smith, a senator from Michigan IIRC, had a lot to do with the undoing of this environment, but it took the crisis of the Titanic to galvanize the country. Cooper brings up the more recent history of McCarthy. and there again, it took a long time for the institutional memory to reset to the idea of how Congress is supposed to operate.

Hopefully we're now approaching another watershed event that will cause Congress to reboot and throw out the Newt ways of doing things- but it looks like we've got a long ways to go. I don't think Boehner is even close to Newt in terms of naked power seeking, nor does he have Newt's smarts. I suspect he's also a bit more of a human being than Newt too- he's just like W, a guy in over his head.

I'm sure that Cooper was also thinking about the monkey wrench that Newt threw at Democratic administrations- he hamstrung Clinton's administration with a sex scandal that culminated in an impeachment. Was Clinton the first president to get caught with his dick not in his wife while in office? Don't think so- but there was an unwritten rule that the presidential dick needs to be protected. Ever since Newt, we've had weenies with no dicks in office- which effectively gives the Speaker a lot more power. This has really left the country rudderless and adrift.

Sam

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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/14/2011 7:58:56 AM   
Sanity


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FR -

People arent buying in.

quote:

Obama Approval Plummets to New Low Among Americans Skeptical of Jobs Plan

A majority of Americans don’t believe President Barack Obama’s $447 billion jobs plan will help lower the unemployment rate, skepticism he must overcome as he presses Congress for action and positions himself for re- election.


The downbeat assessment of the American Jobs Act reflects a growing and broad sense of dissatisfaction with the president. Americans disapprove of his handling of the economy by 62 percent to 33 percent, a Bloomberg National Poll conducted Sept. 9-12 shows. The disapproval number represents a nine point increase from six months ago.

Full article here




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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/14/2011 11:12:51 AM   
Owner59


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It doesn`t matter how low the presidents rating gets as long as your cons have a lower rating.

And they do.

"Democrats chose to underscore a different number from the same poll that shows Americans trust Obama on the economy over Congressional Republicans."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/14/win-win-dems-and-republicans-both-highlight-parts-of-new-cnnorc-poll/

That = you`re a loser.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/14/2011 11:14:14 AM >


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RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... - 9/14/2011 11:29:29 AM   
Sanity


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We shall see

quote:


Field Poll: Californians sour on Obama


Even in heavily Democratic California, President Barack Obama's job approval rating has plummeted among voters, largely on his handling of the economy, according to a new Field Poll.

Though Obama is strongly favored to win California in his re-election bid next year, the poll suggests many Democrats may vote for him only begrudgingly, and it is yet another indication of weakening support nationwide.

"When you're seeing vulnerability in a state like California, I think that really is ominous for his national standing," Field Poll director Mark DiCamillo said.



Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/09/14/3908483/field-poll-californians-sour-on.html#ixzz1Xx8bDTg1





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