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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 5:32:04 PM

Rule

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I admire your ability to cry. I wish I could cry; I have plenty to cry about.

It is a nice song. It is good that the arts are stimulated by such events. It goes to show that every cloud has a silver lining.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 7:31:25 PM

tweakabelle

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After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 8:11:16 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

When looked at from the side, it is obvious that a cow is not the same animal as when looked at from the front.

Now assuming that Bush spoke the truth, and knowing that he planned 911, it is interesting to hear him describe himself as a "terrorist who hates our freedoms". Hence the introduction of the patriot act..?

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 8:35:18 PM

tweakabelle

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I should have put in the OP, but I'd really prefer if those who wish to discuss the events on 9/11 on the basis that it was carried out by people other than Al Quada, or that the generally accepted version of events is invalid, started their own thread.

I'm not expressing a view - I'm concerned with discussing questions around the political ramifications of 9/11, and whether the West's reaction to 9/11 has been successful or otherwise, whether alternative strategies could/should have been deployed, and how future horrors on the scale of 9/11 can be prevented.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 8:44:28 PM

Real0ne

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same ramifications as the holocaust.

pick a word and give any damn definition they want while fucking over nations to promote imperialist british dynasty.

terrorism I said 10 years ago is fucking meaningless. It was meaningless then it is meaningless now and will be meaningless in the future, just like the improperly used word holocaust.

even today wiki is laughing at the wolrd wide suckers who fell for that shit:

There is no universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism.[1][2] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or ideological goal, and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians). Some definitions now exclude acts of state terrorism and some also include acts of unlawful violence and war. The use of similar tactics by criminal organizations for protection rackets or to enforce a code of silence is usually not labeled terrorism though these same actions may be labeled terrorism when done by a politically motivated group. The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged,[3] and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of “terrorism”.[4][5] The concept of terrorism may itself be controversial as it is often used by state authorities (and individuals with access to state support) to delegitimize political or other opponents,[6] and potentially legitimize the state's own use of armed force against opponents (such use of force may itself be described as "terror" by opponents of the state).[6][7] Terrorism has been practiced by a broad array of political organizations for furthering their objectives. It has been practiced by both right-wing and left-wing political parties, nationalistic groups, religious groups, revolutionaries, and ruling governments.[8] An abiding characteristic is the indiscriminate use of violence against noncombatants for the purpose of gaining publicity for a group, cause, or individual.[9]

oh and courtroom mindreading is another good one! with "intent to:" No one can with any degree of certainty read someones intent.
Unless of course you are a modern day court because they have their psychic hotline! LMAO

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/10/2011 8:48:47 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 8:51:06 PM

farglebargle

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Lessons Learned from 9/11:

1) Don't listen to the US Government. Their "Rules of Engagement" where you cooperate with the hijackers is THE CAUSE of 9/11.

2) Now that everyone knows not to let themselves get hijacked, everything else the US Government has done has been completely pointless.

2a) UNLESS you're one of the people who have found a career, benefits, and pension working for the federal government doing things like 'screening' people at the airport for a failure to kow-tow ( or something... )

2b) Or a vendor with a shiny new toy to sell...

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 8:52:58 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?

They hate the real definition of freedom which is the being enfranchised to a commercial deMOBcracy.

Freedom like most people want to think of is is a fantasy and never existed and never will unless the PTB are completely wiped off the face of the planet.

As long as they exist freedom will forevcr be franchise, not much different than luxurious slavery at best..

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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 8:58:23 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Lessons Learned from 9/11:

1) Don't listen to the US Government. Their "Rules of Engagement" where you cooperate with the hijackers is THE CAUSE of 9/11.

2) Now that everyone knows not to let themselves get hijacked, everything else the US Government has done has been completely pointless.

2a) UNLESS you're one of the people who have found a career, benefits, and pension working for the federal government doing things like 'screening' people at the airport for a failure to kow-tow ( or something... )

2b) Or a vendor with a shiny new toy to sell...

its all one big happy family at the top....and when they get into a squabble lots of young kids die and the police state doubles and police state trustees wages double as well!

Brother, Can You Spare A Trillion?: Government Gone Wild!

how about the democrats? LOL

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/10/2011 9:03:20 PM >

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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 9:11:35 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

"*extremely* difficult or next to impossible".....lol,did you really serve in the US coast guard ? Are you actually aware of how many miles of border and coastline we would need to secure to make that statement true.

Crazy Mike, yes, I was in the Coast Guard and you have to take into account geography.
If a bum boat from Haiti tried to get up the east coast they wouldn't make it past Central Florida. Someone would see them and I imagine the Coast Guard now has a lot more highly technical and classified radar and other electronic countermeasures than when I was in many moons ago.
Of course they don't have the support of "The Apprentice" in the W.H. do they?
Evidently "Mr. 162 i.q." doesn't or can't understand the concept of "borders" unless he's teaching Iraq how to secure their borders against Syria.
But, "Mr. in-over-his-head"probably never heard of Mexico.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 9:27:50 PM

Real0ne

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this is a good fit for your op

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLc86DBZrus

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/10/2011 10:21:29 PM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?

70 years ago, absolutely. Otherwise you'd be saluting with one hand and wearing a swastika.

Today? Doubtful. There are too many people in the world like you to ever do something so grand again.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/11/2011 1:34:46 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

FR

Terrorism is insignificant. Cars and stupidity make more casualties in one day than all terrorists combined in twenty years. (It is a wild guess, but it cannot be far off.)

LMAO. "Stupidity". Pretty broad category that could capture every death other than old age.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/11/2011 2:05:48 PM

kdsub

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I guess it would only be a guess at the alternative...But…we had no choice as a nation to retaliate it was just our bad luck to have incompetents in charge.

It is totally useless to say what if… it only matters what happens today and the future.

Butch

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/11/2011 2:11:06 PM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Nothing to really say about that...but this one makes me cry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElzITGC1LCg

It made me cry too...

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/11/2011 5:27:24 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?

70 years ago, absolutely. Otherwise you'd be saluting with one hand and wearing a swastika.

Today? Doubtful. There are too many people in the world like you to ever do something so grand again.

''But there is another interpretation, and it is the predominant one abroad - Muslims, Arabs and many worldwide are furious because they believe Israel is unjustly occupying Palestinian territories.
"The world is tired of this conflict and angry at us because we are viewed as conquerors, ruling over another people,'' Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, a Labor Party member of parliament and former defence minister, said. ''If I were Bibi Netanyahu, I would recognise a Palestinian state. We would then negotiate borders and security. Instead, nothing is happening. We are left with one ally, America, and that relationship is strained too.''

http://www.smh.com.au/world/isolated-israel-target-of-arab-anger-20110911-1k4b6.html#ixzz1XgzM7Cn6

The above quote comes from Ethan Bonner of the New York Times, whose son serves in the IDF - hardly a raging anti-Semite.

Stranger your remarks are as false as they are offensive. As someone else here noted, cheap allegations devalue the many real victims of anti-Semitism. I wonder how those victims would feel about being used cynically as cover for a brutal military occupation and the theft of the West Bank by people like you?

There is precisely nothing stopping a full Israeli withdrawal to its legitimate borders, there is precisely nothing stopping Israeli recognition of a Palestinian State except Israeli intransigence, aggression and hunger for the West Bank. Israel is the largest obstacle to peace in the region.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/11/2011 5:53:44 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/11/2011 5:37:51 PM

defiantbadgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

10 years have passed since the horrific 9/11 attacks on the US. Since that awful day, the world has been consumed with its consequences .....

We've seen the 'War on Terror', invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, Israeli invasions of Lebanon and Gaza, intermittent terrorist atrocities in Madrid London, throughout the Arab world and even as far away as India and Bali.

Tens of thousands of lives have been lost, billions of dollars have been spent. Al Quada and JI (Indonesia/SE Asia) seem spent as effective military and political forces. While Osama bin Laden, and most of AQ's leadership are either dead or captured, political Islamism seems stronger than ever. Hamas and Hezbollah are in Government in Gaza and Lebanon. The outcome of the Arab Spring is far from clear. Large swathes of Africa are now under Islamist control (Sudan, Ethiopia, ....). Palestine/Israel, the festering sore at the root of the whole mess, is as intractable as ever, as Israeli colonisation renders the Two State solution increasingly impossible.

10 years on, what has been achieved? In some views, the only unambiguous success has been preventing another large-scale attack on the US homeland. Have the results justified the costs, in terms of lives, dollars, restricted freedoms? Is the current strategy delivering results? Or is it time to re-consider strategy? Is there even an accurate consensus/understanding on why 9/11s happen?

10 years on, is life without terrorism a realistic possibility or an impossible dream?

Terrorism has always existed in the world and it always will. The US government should do the best it can to prevent future terrorist attacks on US soil. Other countries should do the same. One country bankrupting itself to police the world is a waste of time. I also wonder if it's healthy for victims to re-hash the Sept. 11 attacks for several days every year. We already have Memorial Day to remember the dead. Most people I know only spend a short time decorating graves and remembering loved ones. It doesn't drag on and on for days.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/11/2011 9:55:34 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

Terrorism has always existed in the world and it always will. The US government should do the best it can to prevent future terrorist attacks on US soil. Other countries should do the same. One country bankrupting itself to police the world is a waste of time.

Would you agree that terrorism will be around as long as the material conditions that produce it are around?

A perfect world is a hopeless utopian dream, but aren't there many situations where gross injustice, extreme poverty/exploitation, and/or foreign occupation are producing terrorism? Aren't there reasonably straightforward solutions to these problems that will, in time, remove the causes of terrorism?

We mightn't be able to eliminate terrorism completely, but my feeling is that there is more we (the West) can do beyond policing our own borders without falling into the trap of trying to police the world.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 1:48:45 AM

StrangerThan

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Legitimate as in what? To borders defined in 1948? These same borders that saw the West Bank occupied by Jordan in its own attempt at a land grab? An occupation that didn't formally end until 1988?

I agree. Israel should recognize a Palestinian state, and negotiate both borders and security. I also agree that Israel has had to fight to survive since its inception against every surrounding state, that the Arab stance towards it for most of its existence has been no negotiation, no recognition, and no peace, and that arabs could help themselves along the road a lot by coming to the table with words that don't include destruction of Israel.

As far as defeating ideology, it has been done and can be done. Folks like you are a prime example of why it is virtually impossible in this day and age however.

I could care less what you think about my statements regarding Israel. I don't agree with you. I don't support your stance. I don't agree with the slant you put on it. Frankly, in regards to the middle east, I find you offensive.

You find precisely nothing to stop Israel from returning to borders established in some time frame. I don't even know what that time frame is, other than legitimate. Assuming those to be 1948, I'd say existence to be a prime and motivating factor since those borders essentially cut the country in half. In an ideal world where every fucking neighbor you have doesn't want to kill you, I'd agree with you. Doing so now without real security agreements is essentially a strategic form of suicide.

I'm one of those people who will stand by them as long as it takes.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 8:19:31 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Legitimate as in what? To borders defined in 1948? These same borders that saw the West Bank occupied by Jordan in its own attempt at a land grab? An occupation that didn't formally end until 1988?

I agree. Israel should recognize a Palestinian state, and negotiate both borders and security. I also agree that Israel has had to fight to survive since its inception against every surrounding state, that the Arab stance towards it for most of its existence has been no negotiation, no recognition, and no peace, and that arabs could help themselves along the road a lot by coming to the table with words that don't include destruction of Israel.

I'm one of those people who will stand by them as long as it takes.

As you don't seem aware that, since 2003, there has been a peace proposal from the Arab League offering recognition and security to Israel by all Arab States in exchange for withdrawal to the 1967 borders, you unlikely to be aware that those are the only internationally recognised (and hence legitimate) borders Israel has.

As you say you favour a Palestinian State in exchange for peace and security, that proposal seems to meet the criteria you've listed. You might then like to ask yourself why Israel refuses to negotiate on the basis of this proposal and instead sabotages all peace initiatives preferring to steal the West Bank.

There is precisely nothing stopping a full Israeli withdrawal to its legitimate borders, there is precisely nothing stopping Israeli recognition of a Palestinian State except Israeli intransigence, aggression and hunger for the West Bank. Israel is the largest obstacle to peace in the region.

If you're going to give carte blanche to the Israelis to do as they please, as your last sentence implies, you ought to be aware that you are opposing any chance of a lasting peace in the region. That is to say, you are on the side of the war-mongers. You're welcome to it.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/12/2011 8:27:49 AM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 9:49:29 AM

StrangerThan

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Yes, I'm aware of it. So you mean, legitimate to mean the 1949 borders. I'm also aware that the day before this peace proposal was published, Hamas killed 30 Isreali citizens, and injured another 140. This is the elected government of territory Israel did withdraw from by the way, whose stated aim is the destruction of Israel, the same government condemned by the Human Rights watch for calling civilians to the scene of a planned attack. Note planned meaning, forewarned. Hamas retorted. "We won. From now on we will form human chains around every house threatened with demolition.

This house was home to a Palestinian militant responsible for rocket attacks into Israel.

THis same proposal garnered stiff resistance from Syria, who rejected normalization, insisting the offer was too
generous for the Jewish people.

2003 was not the originating date of the propsal. It initially rose in 2002, promulgated by Saudi Arabia. In the same year,
Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades instituted a series of attacks against Israel with March 2002 seeing 130 killed in Israel, 100 of which were non-combatants. In the ensuing battle of Jenin, these same groups first claimed Israel had participated in the complete destruction of the Jenin refugee camp, claimed a massacre of 500 civilians, and claimed mass graves were dug to hide the bodies - all of which were found to be untrue. Human Rights Watch found afterwards that 27 militants and 22 civilians had been killed. The reason for it all? A jew visiting the Temple Mount.

I mean hell, you can find right and wrong on both sides of the issue. What you will also find is everytime they get close to some agreement, some dipshit arab consortion of terrorists starts killing people. And there is no negotiation on the proposal.It must accepted in total before any negotiation. That acceptance allows what is a virtual invasion of Israel by Palenstians, cuts the country in half, and surrenders Jerusalem.

You want a real proposal? Establish some fucking sense of security given that you want Israel essentially bisected by the very people who want to kill them. Because there is none, and there is no commitment to establishing it either.

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