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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/15/2011 2:09:38 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

she was over here yesterday calling them everything except nice guys.


Did anything ever actually get built?



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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/15/2011 2:18:25 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I think people gambled, and lost- or didn't realize how badly the game was rigged against them.


Agreed... and when you compare it to the wild west shit that went on on wall street between 2k and when they shut the derivatives crowd down, even the loss is MILD by comparison.
   The banksters just don't want to take a 'risk' unless an obscene profit is foreseen. Kinda like drug dealers.

  What I see coming is that the liquidation process may very well result in a better vendor getting control of those manufacturing assets and possibly turning it around.


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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/15/2011 8:15:35 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Move production back into the U.S. and return us to a first world country status


If you are going to join a discussion don't you think it necessary to know what you are talking about?
What is "first world status"?

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/15/2011 8:18:46 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

she was over here yesterday calling them everything except nice guys.


Did anything ever actually get built?




No, nothing was built.
She is pissed because she had these big plans for spending all the money and now she is kinda "all dressed up with no place to go".

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/15/2011 9:39:56 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

No, nothing was built.
She is pissed because she had these big plans for spending all the money and now she is kinda "all dressed up with no place to go".


Bummer... she should keep an eye on the bankruptcy process and if her property is ideal or something like that (Like it has a selling point in the first place) ...She could perhaps not go quite so tea party so early and try to re-work the deal. Someone will buy their plants and probably go into the same production process. That's what I'd be working on.



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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 5:22:11 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"Someone will buy their plants and probably go into the same production process."

Unlikely. The only way this would make sense is if the company were grossly mismanaged and the technology was decent. It wasn't- the tubes needed 165 cells per tube- and they weren't a lot of area. That's a lot of connections where I suspect that equivalent watts out of silicon probably needed a single panel or less. I don't know if the company was mismanaged, but having a working line and people on it, and orders would suggest that it wasn't. There just wasn't any profit in the foreseeable future given the pricing of cells with the Chinese dumping.

A chunk of this was the worries about silicon pricing- that silicon was thought to be expensive. Well, it really isn't, and there's plenty of the stuff. Thin film CIGS cells like Solyndras were supposed to offer decent efficiency, although not as good as silicon, but be less expensive because they used less material. In theory, CIGS cells could exceed the efficiency of silicon too, but since silicon is getting close to mature technology (it's closing in on the Shockley efficiency limit of 29% - I think the best silicon cells have exceeded 23% efficiency (don't hold me to his, it's off the top of my pointy head) so there's really not that much more to go. Pretty sure CIGS theoretical efficiency is around 40%.

Sam

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 5:58:28 AM   
Steponme73


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Status: offline 		LOL...OP quoted the Huffington Post...Now that is an upstanding journalistic firm!!!! I would not believe a damn thing they said...They are a bunch of damn fools.

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 6:00:46 AM   
ArizonaBossMan


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Status: offline 		you leftists are not only crazy, you are delusional. But you go keep selling that pile of dung. We'll see how that hope and change works out for you in 2012.

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 1:57:44 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Unlikely. The only way this would make sense is if the company were grossly mismanaged and the technology was decent. It wasn't- the tubes needed 165 cells per tube- and they weren't a lot of area. That's a lot of connections where I suspect that equivalent watts out of silicon probably needed a single panel or less. I don't know if the company was mismanaged, but having a working line and people on it, and orders would suggest that it wasn't. There just wasn't any profit in the foreseeable future given the pricing of cells with the Chinese dumping.


So there is no other kind of solar cell manufacturing process that can occur? Even with retooling? Sorry, that's not very probable. There are lots of technological overlaps in solar cell manufacture that can be leveraged. Here in new england quite a f3ew solar technology companies have already moved into and retooled premises where other manufacturing processes were occurring. In each case, I believe there was some retooling... but they certainly didn't throw out all the equipment and bulldoze the buildings.


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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 1:59:47 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

you leftists are not only crazy, you are delusional. But you go keep selling that pile of dung. We'll see how that hope and change works out for you in 2012.


CrazyTalk Old Man...
Pure CrazyTalk


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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 3:49:11 PM   
samboct


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I have a sneaking suspicion that it would be hard to retool that factory. Think about it- the cells they're producing a few cm square (or perhaps even curved.) Most solar cells on panels are in square meters these days- probably around 7, maybe 9 to 11. There's a gross mismatch between Solyndra's technology and everybody elses.

In terms of bulldozing the factory- thin film processes use clean rooms. You can't take an existing fab and put in new machinery- at least not easily. Yes, I know that people don't wear bunny suits any more, and that most class 10 processes take place on the line, rather than in the overall building, but that's for producing chips. I'll bet for PV technology, you're screwed. There's probably nothing else they could have used that building for except maybe LEDs and then you'll always be competing with a facility designed from the ground up. Some of the equipment can get auctioned off though.

Sam

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 4:26:21 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, well a republican from Texas can go fuck himself. Its undoable, we should have not let Nixon walk in that motherfucker, we should start working our own value proposition, and we should quit with the shoddy goods and build shit like we mean it.

Weeelllll ... Clinton made China's MFN trade status permanent, yanno ... 

Firm


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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 5:12:21 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, well a republican from Texas can go fuck himself. Its undoable, we should have not let Nixon walk in that motherfucker, we should start working our own value proposition, and we should quit with the shoddy goods and build shit like we mean it.

Weeelllll ... Clinton made China's MFN trade status permanent, yanno ... 

Firm



I dont think its an MFN issue, its a predatory pricing issue in violation of WTO anti-dumping rules that this administration has found the balls to challenge.

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 5:27:39 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Well,Firm, it`s either a global economy or it`s not.


You can`t argue one day that one aspect of the GE is great and then another, gripe about how it`s bad.

You take the good with the bad.


If we are going to be competitive with the Chinese,sometimes we are going to lose.

The opinion on the street for years was that silicon was expencive,would always be expencive and the supply was limmited.

Unfortunately, Chinese big business(which is mostly centrally controlled and subsidized by the Chinese communist government)kicked the crap out of the American solar market.


The only bad thing that can be said is the President lost a bet made in good faith.Both parties took their money so that aspect, is a wash.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/business/energy-environment/13solar.html

Written before the "crushing scandal" but relevant.




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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/16/2011 8:43:43 PM   
FirmhandKY


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My comment was addressing Ron's allusion to the fact that Nixon opened China.  I was saying true, but it was Clinton that made it permanent.

Not really a comment about the GE/Obama/China issue.

Firm


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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/20/2011 8:48:34 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		A bit more info

Prices on crystalline PV panels have fallen from about $1.35/watt to $1.10 per watt in the last 3 weeks. What's going on is that demand for PV panels is driven heavily by Europe which is about 80% of the global market. (Although China/Taiwan are 60% of production) European demand is softening, and panels are stacking up in inventory. At $1.35/watt- factories are basically break even- at $1.10/watt- they're losing money. This pricing pressure is depressing most other areas of the solar industry as well- thin film panels have to be about 12% lower in price.

Seems to me that the Chinese gov't is propping up companies that if they were in the US, would have failed as well. I'm not liking this math- US/European companies fail during a period of softened demand- when demand picks up, the only options are in China. Nope, not liking this one at all.....


Sam

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/20/2011 2:34:26 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

A bit more info

Prices on crystalline PV panels have fallen from about $1.35/watt to $1.10 per watt in the last 3 weeks. What's going on is that demand for PV panels is driven heavily by Europe which is about 80% of the global market. (Although China/Taiwan are 60% of production) European demand is softening, and panels are stacking up in inventory. At $1.35/watt- factories are basically break even- at $1.10/watt- they're losing money. This pricing pressure is depressing most other areas of the solar industry as well- thin film panels have to be about 12% lower in price.

Seems to me that the Chinese gov't is propping up companies that if they were in the US, would have failed as well. I'm not liking this math- US/European companies fail during a period of softened demand- when demand picks up, the only options are in China. Nope, not liking this one at all.....


Sam



Didn't the u.s. govt just give a butt load of money to some capitalist who could not make a go of it?
As I said before I am ready to purchase at least a thousand watts of stand alone pannels at that price. Where do I pick them up? I have cash in hand.

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/20/2011 3:34:07 PM   
samboct


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The price of the panel is now down to 40% or less of the cost of the equipment- never mind installation costs. Since it's a retail market- you're probably screwed. I don't see these factories selling directly to the consumer- the volumes aren't there.

And yeah- nobody's going to be able to make a go of it if the Chinese keep supporting companies that should be failing by keeping prices high in their own country.

Sam

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/20/2011 4:47:52 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Thompson

The price of the panel is now down to 40% or less of the cost of the equipment- never mind installation costs. Since it's a retail market- you're probably screwed. I don't see these factories selling directly to the consumer- the volumes aren't there.

And yeah- nobody's going to be able to make a go of it if the Chinese keep supporting companies that should be failing by keeping prices high in their own country.

Sam



You are being a little unclear here. You are pissed at the chinese for doing what the u.s. govt is doing....why???
If as you say there is a glut and they are dropping the price because they cannot sell them where does this eventually lead?

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RE: Bankrupt Solar Company A Republican Problem, Not Ju... - 9/20/2011 7:00:41 PM   
samboct


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We bellyached about $0.5B in loans to a company which is probably mostly gone. The Chinese have at last estimate, supported their factories with $30B. They can last through this downturn, and our companies can't.

Sam

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