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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/16/2011 3:29:25 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

The people who bred potatoes or corn have thousands of varieties, of which some are fugual or viral resiotiant and others grew in differing climates. For instance I think there are about five commerical varietis of corn. And one reason for the Iriah potato famine was the lack of resistance to the variety of potato the Irish had, unlike th eSouth Americans who have several thousand varsities.


And right here in new england (particularly with organic corn and potato farmers) there is a resurgence of locally bred seeds between here and bar harbor, you can find as many as 20 types of native corn and at least 5 potatoes I know of. All with their own hardiness and climate handling capabilities. New England has had a good track record over the centuries for surviving blights and insects.

quote:

And it can be as simple as the engineered salmon/eel combination they are farming in eastern Canada violating the religious taboos both Muslims and Jews have against eating eel. (Never mind the spider/goat hybrid.)


You talking about Pout Eel hybrids? They aren't allowed here and definitely won't be for a long time. With the Fishing community's back to the wall on catches. They're taking a REAL DIM VIEW of engineered fish stock. Here in Gloucester, there are some discreet moves toward farming NATIVE strains. In fact... I'm acting as a liaison between a company in the niagra area run by a friend of mine and several parties wanting to explore the feasibility of farming clams indoors. If it takes off, I am changing jobs, It would be really cool to take these old style clammers who are, because of water conditions and the state's management of the beds, MAYBE able to dig 10 days a month.
    If it was moved indoors, we could protect the historic beds (I get my clams from a culture that the natives that first contacted white settlers here started... the guy who showed it to me has had 'someone' in his family digging there for the last 300 years... there's a point named after them),
   Now imagine if those folks (4 in this generation) could work 35 - 40 hours a week for perhaps 3/4s of what they make digging now?
I am not opposed to aquaculture, but get the willies about hybridization at the genome level when it comes to fish.
   That salmon you mention, if it's the same one I hear of now and then (new foundland?).... can grow to 125 lbs and feeds aggressively like an eel as opposed to the somewhat more passive feeding of salmon.
  I don't want those big fuckers hunting my much cherished striped bass.

quote:

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something.


When it comes to supporting organic farmers, I think if you can do something, you should.
 


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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/16/2011 3:35:50 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
Here in Gloucester, there are some discreet moves toward farming NATIVE strains. In fact... I'm acting as a liaison between a company in the niagra area run by a friend of mine and several parties wanting to explore the feasibility of farming clams indoors. If it takes off, I am changing jobs, It would be really cool to take these old style clammers who are, because of water conditions and the state's management of the beds, MAYBE able to dig 10 days a month.
    If it was moved indoors, we could protect the historic beds (I get my clams from a culture that the natives that first contacted white settlers here started... the guy who showed it to me has had 'someone' in his family digging there for the last 300 years... there's a point named after them),
   Now imagine if those folks (4 in this generation) could work 35 - 40 hours a week for perhaps 3/4s of what they make digging now?

Farming clams seems doable. You need sand, salt water, pumps and a seperate tank for growing the little stuff the clams eat. Seems unlikely to be as cost effective as growing mussels on ropes though. The question is how much crowding will clams tolerate?

Any idea if farmed clams would act like farmed mussels and grow more meat than shell? That is a major reason mussel farming is so efficient.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/16/2011 5:30:30 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Here you go.
http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/envir_e/edis04_e.htm

It has always been the EU (or EC) pushing this since back in the 90's.




Still nothing to substantiate your claims of the EU wanting to dump Tuna on the US market, or that the EU is pushing Mexico.

This despite you using two links twenty years apart.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/16/2011 6:18:14 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Farming clams seems doable. You need sand, salt water, pumps and a seperate tank for growing the little stuff the clams eat. Seems unlikely to be as cost effective as growing mussels on ropes though. The question is how much crowding will clams tolerate?


Okay, the culture itself (water chemistry / substrate) isn't a real big deal, you basically cart it in from the marsh in a tank truck... The substrate you reconstruct. The big barrier to farming any seafood in a closed system is that it normally puts a HUGE strain on the local waste treatment resources. I have wrestled with this issue since almost 20 years ago in RI. It really DOES have a nasty backlash on a town's water system.
   That said, a couple of years ago, a company called Timberfish came into existence. And they do a closed loop system that is based on biotic technology similar to what they do at the Hooker Chemical Building in Niagra falls upstairs people are shitting and pissing the day away and down below, people are sitting in a wetlands environment enjoying nature.
  The system I am trying to get the local aquaculture experimenters is completely closed loop and uses timber waste products as it's main components. Were it not for the saline components you could drink this water.


quote:

Any idea if farmed clams would act like farmed mussels and grow more meat than shell? That is a major reason mussel farming is so efficient.


Actually, yeah, if you"build" you own substrate in such a way that the clams can suck up their food with less strain on the bivalve organs... yep they swell out of their shell. If you live in an area with saltwater and a sewage treatment plant that lets out into the marsh... you can dig in the black mud and pull up steamers that run up to a 1/4 lb. Eat em and you;re playing Russian roulette, but they hit that size because they have so little work to suck in nutrients. I will say this... I dig em at least once a week and use em for striper bait. I end up landing 40 - 50 inch fish when everybody else is bringing in fish that just make the 28" limit.



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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/16/2011 6:30:48 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"and he came nearly close to shoveling a law through congress that would have outlawed not only organic farming, but backyard garden growers as well."

Didn't catch that. Really ? Twenty years ago I would say you are full of shit, they would never try anything of the sort. Today I don't even need a link. Just gimme the HB number.

T^T

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/17/2011 6:43:19 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Here you go.
http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/envir_e/edis04_e.htm

It has always been the EU (or EC) pushing this since back in the 90's.




Still nothing to substantiate your claims of the EU wanting to dump Tuna on the US market, or that the EU is pushing Mexico.

This despite you using two links twenty years apart.

I presented to you two documents from the WTO that both said the EU was supporting Mexico and one detailed why. If you don't believe me do your own fucking research.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/17/2011 5:53:32 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Like I said, neither link shows anything about the EU wanting to dump Tuna in the US, nor does it show the EU wants to dictate to the US re labelling, which was your original claim.

If you are happy using some 20 year old link about Mexico as proof, then your research isnt worth a toss, is it.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/17/2011 5:58:32 PM   
cwblock


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Status: offline 		basically everything is GMO since, just not all same to level, corn started out looking more like grass, but through breeding we got corn. if you don't want gmo eat meat.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/17/2011 6:29:53 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cwblock

basically everything is GMO since, just not all same to level, corn started out looking more like grass, but through breeding we got corn. if you don't want gmo eat meat.


Too bad thats not what the "GM" in GMO means.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/17/2011 11:20:55 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"if you don't want gmo eat meat."

Oh boy.

First of all you seem to not know a couple of thngs. One of the major reasons corn is so much of an issue is not that it is one of the grains actually native to the US, it is also extremely useful. Only a small part of the corn produced reaches your diningroom. There are two MAJOR uses for it other than food, and theses are important to commerce. One is the production of ethanol and a few other chemicals. These things mean money. The ethanol stretches gasoline, but reduces fuel mileage, which works in their interest, It also is detrimental to the fuel systems in older vehicles which increases their manitenance costs, aiding the sale of new vehicles, which encourages the tax base. If cars could actually run on pure ethanol, they should, but they just can't because the modifications would cost too much.

Corn also feeds that cattle from which the meat comes. Some research says it gives cows a problem in the liver, which makes it necessary to pump them full of chemicals that are detrimental to us, possibly, hasn't been checked. And milk, ummmm, it doesn't spoil anymore because they now include a virus that kills the bacteria that used to make milk spoil. This increases shelf life. Try it for yourself, leave some milk out for some time, it does not go sour anymore, it goes bitter. Shelf life is more important than human life, but back to the subject.

Another HUGE market for corn is as a sugar substitute. See the US can't play nice with some of it's neighbors and has a slight problem with some of the sugar cane/beet producing countries. This means sugar costs more. Now goddammit, there is sugar in damnear everything in this country. But not no more. Sugar is too expensive, HFCS is cheaper. HFCS stands for High Fructose CORN Syrup. It is detrimental to human health, and anything containing it cannot wear a pareve, nor any kind of organic seal or anyting, but people don't care. It makes people fat and who knows what else it does to them. It might not be quite as bad as aspartame but it certainly isn't good.

But real sugar is too expensive. You can get a Kosher Coke with a yellow cap for about twice the price if you can find it, or you can get your Coke from Mexico where they don't have these problems. Even Campbell's tomato soup now has HFCS in it, and I swear it used to have a pareve in the old days.

But see these factors make corn a very important crop. And to have seed that not only produces sterile crops, but also are patented, gives you a captive market.

That's business American style.

T^T

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/17/2011 11:31:24 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		Ahhhh, Mexican Coke, one of the best reasons to shop at Costco in Southern Cal.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/17/2011 11:54:25 PM   
tj444


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Status: offline 		I like what this guy did... his farm "produces 1,200 tons of sea bass, bream, red mullet and shrimp each year." He is not in the US tho...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902751,00.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_barber_how_i_fell_in_love_with_a_fish.html

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/18/2011 12:26:45 AM >

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 12:06:55 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I like what this guy did... his farm "produces 1,200 tons of sea bass, bream, red mullet and shrimp each year." He is not in the US tho...

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902751,00.html#ixzz1YHhgR85T
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902751,00.html


Farmed seafood is almost indistinguishable from sea caught, and so much cheaper its ridiculous. PETA will find something to whine about though.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 1:10:39 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Seafood from the sea has more nutritional value.

There is no link to that, it is common sense because the food lives in seawater that has those minerals naturally. Farmed food is only given what it needs to grow, not what we need. It's the same fucking problem as commercial farming on land.

Nobody in this country tests for these things, most likely because they know they wil not like what they find. And there is no economical way to fix it. You want full mineral content in all your foods you will pay about five bucks per apple, ten bucks per head of brocolli, about fifty bucks a pound for beef, and so forth. It ain't happenin'. It's not even greed, it's simple reality.

So I want my seafood to come from the sea, even if the farm bred actually tastes better. I eat to live, not live to eat.

T^T

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 2:04:35 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I like what this guy did... his farm "produces 1,200 tons of sea bass, bream, red mullet and shrimp each year." He is not in the US tho...

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902751,00.html#ixzz1YHhgR85T
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902751,00.html


Farmed seafood is almost indistinguishable from sea caught, and so much cheaper its ridiculous. PETA will find something to whine about though.

Termy's made up nonsense aside, there are some issues with inland fish farms. Most notably the problem of waste disposal/handling. Some species convert feed to body weight efficiently and therefore produce relatively little weight, catfish and tilapia are two well known examples. Others do not do such a good job of converting feed and therefore produce a whole lot of waste.

Also aquaculture operations in countries without strong environmental regulations have been found to have issues with contaminants in the water and in the seafood. So buy farmed seafood from the US or the rest of the first world.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 2:06:42 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Seafood from the sea has more nutritional value.

There is no link to that, it is common sense because the food lives in seawater that has those minerals naturally. Farmed food is only given what it needs to grow, not what we need. It's the same fucking problem as commercial farming on land.

Nobody in this country tests for these things, most likely because they know they wil not like what they find. And there is no economical way to fix it. You want full mineral content in all your foods you will pay about five bucks per apple, ten bucks per head of brocolli, about fifty bucks a pound for beef, and so forth. It ain't happenin'. It's not even greed, it's simple reality.

So I want my seafood to come from the sea, even if the farm bred actually tastes better. I eat to live, not live to eat.

T^T

I wont eat farmed salmon but thats cuz i know a bit about how it is raised and i dont believe it should be farmed in the sea. Imo it is a danger to the ecosystem and to wild salmon. Even tho its grown in pens in the ocean so its "from the sea" as well, as you say you want, its proven to not be as good for you as wild salmon, and the food they feed it has coloring in it to give the farmed salmon the pink color it should have naturally but doesnt.

So.. i think it really depends on the fish/seafood you are looking to eat and also the farm that it has come from. I feel that the fish farm in Spain (my link in my post above), is as good as nature intended cuz it is nature as it was intended, its a natural ecosystem and i would not have any problem eating fishies from there... even tho it is a fish farm. That farm also grows rice and other agricultural products too, actually. Seriously... Can 250 species of hungry birdies be wrong???

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/18/2011 2:07:48 AM >

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 8:44:01 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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Status: offline 		Wilbur, you get first prize for being wrong with that statement. And I am far from a member of PETA.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902751,00.html#ixzz1YHhgR85T
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1902751,00.html


Farmed seafood is almost indistinguishable from sea caught, and so much cheaper its ridiculous. PETA will find something to whine about though.


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 10:04:22 AM   
Termyn8or


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Omnipotent as ever aren't you.

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 10:07:06 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		"I wont eat farmed salmon "

Don't tell Ken, he might barrage you with 1,000 links that say it's better for you.

From fish farms or their friends.

T^T

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RE: How safe are GMO's? - 9/18/2011 1:56:56 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"I wont eat farmed salmon "

Don't tell Ken, he might barrage you with 1,000 links that say it's better for you.

From fish farms or their friends.

T^T

No where did I say farmed salmon was any good at all. But it has nothing to do with the mineral content of the water they are raised in which is the nonsensical claim you made. It is the fact that salmon do not do well in crowded conditions and are terrible at converting feed to body weight so they wind up getting dosed with hormones and antibiotics to keep them healthy long enough to reach market weight.

However farmed catfish, mussels and a few other varieties of seafood are much better farmed than wild caught. The difference is so significant that you will basically never seee wild caught catfish or mussels in the retail market.

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