RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped?

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LaTigresse -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 4:11:59 AM)
I have found that to usually be a one sided endeavour. From where I sit, there were several parties making stellar fools of themselves.

DeviantlyD -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 4:13:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth But why would you even care? After all it's just words on a screen right? Caring and curious are two different things. But if you don't want to respond, nothing I can do about it. shrugs It just seems like you have a bee up your ass. :D

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 4:19:18 AM)
Not at all, I just found it ironic that you wrote that when in fact you've done the same thing. Why call him on his rudeness if they're just words on a screen?

NiceGuyNihilist -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 12:04:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: strongbottom88 quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Winterapple I think the questions beneath your post concern perceptions of masculinity and what could diminish a man in a womans eyes? You would like to ask women in general and submissive women in particular because you think we have the harshest and most rigid view of what a 'real man' is? That's how I read the OP, too. I also read him as - quite carefully, in fact - distinguishing between a) what women reasonably deem to be 'unmanly' and b) what their more instinctual feelings - feelings that they might not actually like about themselves - say to them. (Or call them 'prejudices', if that suits.) But most people seem to be answering the question as though it were all about what they believed to be reasonable to like or dislike. In which case, the answers seem to me to be pretty easy and obvious. Hmm. I do wish the OP would haul his arse back in here to enlighten us, though. I read it the same way. In this context it is not a completely irrelevant question, although in taking on this kind of subject it is difficult not to come off as ignorant or insensitive. I am not that inclined to compare it to a dominant man acting as a bottom as I think that is entirely different because it is consensual. As has been raised in numerous other threads I have read on these boards, in addition to being dominant, submissive, switch, etc, we are also men and women and I think there are probably at least some women who base at least some of their attraction (vanilla or bdsm) to men on their perception that they are protectors. I am not a woman, but I believe this is partly a matter of women being socialized to feel weak and vulnerable and to see men as their protectors. It is also somewhat practical as women are more subject to being targets of sexual assault or violent crime, and on average (I recognize this is far from absolute) they are more physically vulnerable and have less capacity to physically protect. It is possible that when a man has been a victim of rape that some women can't help but see the man in a more vulnerable light and less capable as a protector. To illustrate, I am close friends with a woman who is a survivor of both rape and sexual abuse. She has PTSD. Several years ago we used to hang out regularly (she has since moved out of the area) and there was a mutual attraction. It never evolved into anything romantic, in large part because in talking with her it was clear she could not engage in any type of bdsm and I had reached a point in my life where I knew bdsm had to be a significant part of any serious sustained relationship for me. She used to tell me regularly that part of the reason she was attracted to me was that I made her feel physically safe. She told me she believed that if we were ever in a violent physical situation that I could kill someone to protect her if necessary. This may or may not be true, but the thing is she needed to see me that way. Because I could ultimately tell she was disappointed that our relationship was not evolving, I told her about my love of bdsm and that I have been a bottom and physically vulnerable in many scenes. She confirmed bot that she could not emotiaonlly engage in bdsm and that this did not effect her perception of me as a protector. I can't help but feel that if I experienced something that exposed what I already know (that i am not physically invulnerable) that this would not have been a bigger surprise to her and had a bigger impact on the way she perceived me. Of course the logic is flawed and irrational. Everyone with real life experience who is thinking rationally understands that no person is exempt from physical invulnerability including rape. No man has the capacity to be even remotely close to an absolute "protector." It is also very clear that being raped does not make someone "undominate". Dominance and submission in a bdsm context are completely unrelated to non-consensual acts. At the same time, it is not completely irrelevant to ask women if this has an impact on their attraction to a man given how women are socialized and given the fact, that on average they are the more physically vulnerable sex and in most societies they are subject to more violent crime and may desire to feel "protected." Again, the probelm is that it is almost impossible to ask this type of question without coming off as insensitive and offensive given peoples real life dramatic experiences with rape) As a sub male I can look at this in reverse. I am attracted to emotionally strong women. In a bdsm relationship I desire moments of feeling emotionally protected and cared for. I am even very drawn to scenes where I willingly am put into a physically vulnerable position in part because it reinforces a bond of trust where I can see the dominant as emotionally protective of me when I'm most vulnerable. In contrast, despite being a feminist, outside of that type of scene, I have never been in an adult relationship where I saw the woman as the primary physical protector in the relationship. Sub or not, I have always seen myself as the primary physical protector in the relationship if we are ever subject to a serious threat of violence. I am a man who has been socialized this way, and as a practical matter I have always been the one more physically equipped to "protect" in my relationships - at least to date. I can only imagine the effect that being raped would have on that part of my identity - inlcuding the ability to feel attractive to women. I am unhappy with myself feeling that way and realize it is ignorant and irrational, but that does not make it not so. I've chosen to quote this entire block of text because all three posters not only fully grasped the purpose of my question, but reflected me in such a way that I think I now better understand my motive for asking it. I don't mean to imply, by the way, that anyone who missed the point is at fault. I'm the writer, and it falls on me to make myself impossible to misunderstand. There's an analogy I thought about using in my first post to clarify the meaning of my question, but I proofread myself and wrongly thought there was no need. I'll share it now. In Orson Scott Card's How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy, Card presents the beginning of an unfinished story. A young woman sees a young man for the first time and thinks he looks pretty good. Later, while traveling through space with her, he pukes all over himself, causing her to lose her attraction. The last line of the piece poignantly captures the bit of female nature I've been trying to coax out of its hiding place, if it's there at all: Maybe he couldn't help it, but neither could she. If it is possible to love and lust against one's will, then there is certainly a dark corollary. Why is it so hard to admit it? Why should you, the woman whose deepest instinct cringes at the thought of mating with a male bitch--an inferior protector--be any more ashamed of what you can't help than a man should be of his forcibly penetrated asshole? I only use such ruthless language in an attempt to speak directly to the part of a woman's psyche that is itself ruthless--an animal, a gene-propagator, a relic of epochs before morality and rationality. Yes, yes--I know you love your Dom sincerely, or would if you had one. I believe you when you say you'd see him as a survivor, not a victim, for emerging from such hell strengthened rather than weakened by his scars. But I think that's your rational brain talking. Your morality. If there's an amoral, reptilian part with other ideas, and you're aware of it, I'm brazenly asking you to cop to it. Not revel in it, unless you want to--just cop to it.

LaTigresse -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 12:12:07 PM)
Very interesting and thank you for coming back and explaining as you did. It also sheds some light on some aspects of stuff within my past relationships.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 12:19:46 PM)
Thanks for coming back - again - to clarify. My response hasn't changed though, if my Dom had a rape in his past, I wouldn't see him as any less capable as a Dom. Just for fun, I would't have changed my feelings for him if he puked on himself. [;)] [8D]

gungadin09 -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 12:45:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NiceGuyNihilist If it is possible to love and lust against one's will, then there is certainly a dark corollary. Why is it so hard to admit it? Why should you, the woman whose deepest instinct cringes at the thought of mating with a male bitch--an inferior protector--be any more ashamed of what you can't help than a man should be of his forcibly penetrated asshole? I only use such ruthless language in an attempt to speak directly to the part of a woman's psyche that is itself ruthless--an animal, a gene-propagator, a relic of epochs before morality and rationality. Yes, yes--I know you love your Dom sincerely, or would if you had one. I believe you when you say you'd see him as a survivor, not a victim, for emerging from such hell strengthened rather than weakened by his scars. But I think that's your rational brain talking. Your morality. If there's an amoral, reptilian part with other ideas, and you're aware of it, I'm brazenly asking you to cop to it. Not revel in it, unless you want to--just cop to it. OP- a couple of things. First, i think you're at fault for not expressing yourself clearly in your OP, and then not getting in back on track when it went off course. Second, thread drift often happens anyway. Threads take on lives of their own around here. It used to bug me, but now i've accepted it. Frequently, the discussion will take an interesting turn, even though it's a departure from the OP. Thirdly, i would like to discuss the subject you intended, but this thread seems to be at an end. Perhaps You would consider starting a new thread? It is an interesting topic that merits discussion. pam

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 12:49:00 PM)
ffs Pam he accepts responsibility for that when he wrote this: quote: I don't mean to imply, by the way, that anyone who missed the point is at fault. I'm the writer, and it falls on me to make myself impossible to misunderstand.

gungadin09 -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 12:49:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth ffs Pam he accepts responsibility for that when he wrote this: quote: I don't mean to imply, by the way, that anyone who missed the point is at fault. I'm the writer, and it falls on me to make myself impossible to misunderstand. i know he did. It's just that i agree with him (that He's at fault). i mean, since He mentioned it and all. pam

PeonForHer -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 1:23:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth ffs Pam he accepts responsibility for that when he wrote this: quote: I don't mean to imply, by the way, that anyone who missed the point is at fault. I'm the writer, and it falls on me to make myself impossible to misunderstand. i know he did. It's just that i agree with him (that He's at fault). i mean, since He mentioned it and all. pam I'm with you on that, Pam. A lot of ink was spent ripping up the OP's own question and what people, apparently now erroneously, thought were his motives. Not to mention that some bad feelings all round were created going down all kinds of alleys. His intervention a lot earlier would have been helpful. And it really would have been interesting to see this rephrased topic addressed before this thread began to look as though it was on its last legs. Right. To all: This comment itself could take us off course. Apologies for that - suffice to say it's the last time I'll bring it up.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 2:07:32 PM)
quote: The last line of the piece poignantly captures the bit of female nature I've been trying to coax out of its hiding place, if it's there at all: It's not, at least not here among us four. Sorry. quote: Why should you, the woman whose deepest instinct cringes at the thought of mating with a male bitch--an inferior protector--be any more ashamed of what you can't help than a man should be of his forcibly penetrated asshole? Projecting again. [8\|] This is what you think a woman's deepest instinct should cringe at in order to validate your own ideas as to what constitutes a proper man. And you are still presenting your premise as an established fact and wanting us to agree with you that we shouldn't feel shame for feeling that way. Some women will feel that way, and others will not. And the one's who do have some pretty serious mental and emotional issues they need to deal with in my opinion. All this question really is, is a quest for validation for your own feelings of revulsion for the men in the documentary you saw, you don't see them as "whole" anymore, and you are trying desperately to find people who will tell you that you are right, and you are doing so because deep down you know you're not. quote: If there's an amoral, reptilian part with other ideas, and you're aware of it, I'm brazenly asking you to cop to it. Not revel in it, unless you want to--just cop to it. I did. I copped to it and explained to you the reaction I get. It's just that my instinctual drive doesn't do things the way you want it to in order to validate your machismic view of what is and isn't a "real" man. Guess what, that's because you are doing exactly what I said you are, you are trying to force others to fit into your own ill-concieved preconceptions of what we are and how we function. I am constantly amazed at how wrong men are about what motivates women, how they construct these wonderful fairytale scenarios wherein women want just the sort of men that they are, or to be more precise, the sorts of men they like to think they are, and then ask us to confirm their imagined outcomes. Do some reading and listening instead of day dreaming and pud-pulling, maybe then you won't so deeply misjudge what motivates women and misunderstand the biological and evolutionary drives behind those motivations.

PeonForHer -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 2:29:29 PM)
Just in case you weren't aware, NGN, I'm not going to interpret you a second time around. You'll have to get off your butt and do it yourself this time. And . . . just in case this cap fits your or anyone else: No one person here gets to be amateur shrink while the rest of us play the role of lab-rats for him or her. [;)]

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 5:53:37 PM)
quote: No one person here gets to be amateur shrink while the rest of us play the role of lab-rats for him or her. You're right, no one person gets to. We all get to. [:D]

CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 6:03:08 PM)
quote: If it is possible to love and lust against one's will, then there is certainly a dark corollary. Why is it so hard to admit it? Why should you, the woman whose deepest instinct cringes at the thought of mating with a male bitch--an inferior protector--be any more ashamed of what you can't help than a man should be of his forcibly penetrated asshole? ***** But I think that's your rational brain talking. Your morality. If there's an amoral, reptilian part with other ideas, and you're aware of it, I'm brazenly asking you to cop to it. Not revel in it, unless you want to--just cop to it. Yes, I have both loved, and lusted others, at different times against my will before. It's possible because we have to go to school with other people whether we like it or not, and we cannot choose our neigbors or workmates to avoid this either. If a problem comes up we are caged, and the attractions escalate if we cannot put them in the past, behind us. I have been miserable and nobody knew, until next year when I was moved to a different state and a new school, or else changed jobs or shifts to avoid contact with that person. It is a royal bitch to have an attraction to a married person, or to someone who is truly beneath you. That covered my thoughts on your first sentence, and as for the rest in that first paragraph... Not everyone is hardwired the way you think. My inner reptile was influenced by how I grew up; around males who were supposed to be protectors but were abusive instead. Somehow, I flunked learning that males are supposed to be protectors...this is part of my instinct now, not to trust men with power until they have proven themselves to me. No lover has ever protected me before. Not even my feelings. I am with someone entirely different from any past lover or male family member. Unlike the others who could have filled the role, physically, of protector but had no emotional motivation to ever do so...my sub is the opposite. His mining injury was severe and a punch to the head or jaw could kill him, or worse. (I cannot risk enjoying face slapping, and have to be careful not to otherwise jerk his head around on his neck when I grab a fist full of his hair and pull on it.) At the same time, it is so very hard to get used to...and believe what I clearly see...that all of his instincts roar loudly to protect me, especially from any male aggression. While some may see his injury as making him an "inferior protector" I cannot possibly see him as...less. I might have to channel his feelings into a more safe outlet of expression, but at the same time my inner beast is so surprised and awed to have found someone who is truly my knight in every way that counts the most. He is something I had given up on ever finding...kind of like when I was a little girl and believed in winged dragons, unicorns, and faeries...and then had to grow up and see that they were just the stuff of fantasies. Imagine my disbelief when I discovered my real, live "unicorn"...my rational brain is throwing fits over this, but there is no way I can invalidate that he exists, and I have to get used to having my world tip upside down. By someone that others might consider inferior because of the trauma he had survived. Besides, his own PTSD (remember that a mountain caved in on him, breaking his skull and other bones as well as scarring up internal organs...being a suvivor does not mean that someone has a weak character) has made him able to read me...in almost a psychic way...so that he serves my best interests better. He doesn't see me as broken or weak for being a survivor, or as any less dominant just because I have been raped in the past, or put into a position where I had to submit to survive. My past has given me a lot of strengths that I bring into our relationship, and how my brain misfires sometimes and starts a chemical cocktail called a panic attack is just something we have to deal with. To show you how nonsensical they can be, I had one earlier today...triggered by my bending over the bathtub to get an empty bowl of water I leave there for my cats and filled it up. During my last visit to my sub, I was sitting at his computer chair, one hand teasing his dangly bits while I had his arse in my face...so I could keep biting it. I was having a great time, and the panic attack hit me from out of nowhere. I told him immediately and had him turn, bend down and hug me and pet my back for twenty minutes until the nasty adrenaline was reabsorbed. I would send my sub into this thread and have him answser this question from the point of view of, "Would you be less inclined to submit to a Domme who'd been raped?" if that would interest you. This can cut both ways as I HAVE had male subs see me as less because I am a survivor. Some have been unable to see my strengths because my past history gets in the way, and they have seen panic attacks as evidence that I am a broken person who needs more counseling to "cure" me. I have scars, not fresh wounds. There is no fairy godmother who can wave her magic wand, erasing past horrors so completely that her beneficiary is transformed into someone else...a person whose life has never been touched by the evil of others. <rant over> [;)] As for this part: If there's an amoral, reptilian part with other ideas, and you're aware of it, I'm brazenly asking you to cop to it. I find it immoral that the reptilian part of my brain, my instincts, assume the worst can happen in every possible situation. It is the moral, rational part of my brain that forces me to balance this out with an almost childlike Polyanna mindset. I cannot exist in a world where I am caged in by my seige mentality, so "expecting the worst, but hoping for the best" works for me and keeps me in balance/harmony with the world. When I loan money, it is done with the complete acceptance of never getting it back...if it comes back to me I am almost surprised, as well as joyful. When entering a relationship, I cop to...expecting the worst...besides, why should I be one of the few exceptions in this world who find true happiness and love that lasts? I hope for something more...but at the same time, it is very scary to risk everything by setting one's hopes too high. I am not masochistic enough to do that to myself again; been there, done that when I was a teenager. My internal reptile learned to be biased and wary during childhood, when my father/protector beat me half to death over the most trivial things, and from my first boyfriend who got tired of my trying to talk things through with him one day and decided to strangle me until I was passing out just to shut me up. My internal beast is a very wary one...and yes, I am indeed coping to that, without any apologies for being unfair and even prejudiced when it comes to deciding if I want a certain man in my life. Since my boy cannot help but push a great many bad buttons of mine, it is a testament to how damned good his courtship...and his intent and motivation...that he is getting around my vanilla side and is making me trust him more than I thought was even possible. Of course for every major step forward, my reptilian brain makes me take two steps back until I am okay with the new territory gained. For those who see me as less dominant after admitting all this...oh well. [:D] I am who I am and manage leadership relationships anyway; my greatest strengths arise...from all my broken places.

PeonForHer -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 6:25:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: No one person here gets to be amateur shrink while the rest of us play the role of lab-rats for him or her. You're right, no one person gets to. We all get to. [:D] Indeedy.

Winterapple -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 7:06:04 PM)
How much credence should a person give to the reptile beneath? My inner reptile like a true reptile is only interested in survival and hedonism. As the slithery symbol of my id it's a poor judge of anything and everyone. If we followed our most primitive instincts we would club people over the head for looking at our food.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 8:54:45 PM)
quote: My inner reptile like a true reptile is only interested in survival and hedonism. Exactly. And to me, my response to a person who has been raped and has overcome that trauma is to perceive them as strong and capable, a person in control of life. To me those things are appealing, those are the sort of attributes that appeal to my survival instinct. Attach myself to such a person and I will be more likely to survive. On the other hand, if they allowed the rape to overwhelm them and to continue to control them, then that leads me to perceive them as weak and incapable and a person who allows life to control them. Those things trigger a rejection response in my depths. Attach myself to such a person and I probably decrease my chances of survival. So, despite the OP and Peon's insistence otherwise, I did in fact understand his question, and, despite the OP's insistence otherwise, I did answer it as honstly as any of us can. I put it that way because I have to extrapolate from my reaction to women who have been raped, not being at all attracted to men and never having knowingly met a man who was raped. Again, the problem with the OP and this whole thread is not that the OP didn't explain it right the first time, since his redefinings of his position in no way differ from his original to my eye, they say the same thing to me, and I clearly got it the first time. The problem is that the OP has already decided what our answers should be, he has decided that we feel the way he wants us to, and wants us to admit it. He dismisses a response such as mine as dishonest, or at least not really answering his question. He says so openly in his latest post. quote: I believe you when you say you'd see him as a survivor, not a victim, for emerging from such hell strengthened rather than weakened by his scars. But I think that's your rational brain talking. Your morality. If there's an amoral, reptilian part with other ideas, and you're aware of it, I'm brazenly asking you to cop to it. Not revel in it, unless you want to--just cop to it. He categorically refuses to believe that anybody might indeed be reaching as far down as they can to gauge their most basic reaction, and not coming up with the answer he wants us to. I'm sorry but I simply do not have the reaction he has decided we must have.

gungadin09 -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 9:27:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather I'm sorry but I simply do not have the reaction he has decided we must have. Neither do i. i'm sure i have as many low, base reactions as the next woman, but that does not happen to be one of them. If it were, i would have no problem admitting it. pam

GracieN -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 9:34:49 PM)
No, I would be more inclined to submit to him.

Winterapple -> RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd been raped? (9/19/2011 9:40:03 PM)
I don't believe I would have a negative reaction either. What I meant was we can react to things out of fear and ignorance. I also have a strong instinctive response to people who have survived horrors. I see strength and courage even if their still struggling with what happened to them.

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