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Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going too far? - 9/22/2011 11:15:01 PM   
secretbadgirl525


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/3/2011
Status: offline 		I should start out with... my previous Owner NEVER actually physically forced me to do anything I didn't agree to. He NEVER threatened me with punishment or leaving me if I wasn't willing to do something outside my established limits. So please don't think that I was abused into doing something I didn't want to do, because I wasn't.

The problem is, like most slaves, I LIKE TO PLEASE MY MASTER (I also like some hinted level of force or coercion in my M/s relations). So when he would ask me to do something I didn't like... I would bend over backwards to TRY to be at least OK with it on some level because I wanted to please him. As such, I ended up doing (and agreeing to do others that in his defense, he never actually made me do) some things WAY outside my limits. I hate to admit it, but I am still ashamed of some of the things I did. When I was still with him it was easy to not focus on the couple of bad times but instead I focused on all the wonderful experiences he DID give me (some of them were initially outside my comfort zone, so not ALL his limit pushing was bad)

The problem I am having is that he and I split (for various reasons I don't really want to get into). Now I am conflicted. There is a LARGE part of me that loves and NEEDS to let my submissive side out but when I start talking to potential Masters/play partners I start getting REALLY skittish. I'm still relatively new to this world, so I some of my limits are not yet completely defined but when I start talking about letting someone else push/define my limits... I start to freak on the inside. I lose part of my desire to submit, scared I'll submit into doing things I regret... again.

What I'm asking here is, has anyone else experienced this? Been scared by a close call or bad relationship with a Master (or even just a play partner)? If so, how did you deal with it? Any tricks on being able to trust yourself or another Master again?




***On a side note, I understand my previous relationship wasn't perfect, and there are loads of things that didn't go right (and that perhaps I got involved with the wrong Master) but I really don't want to hear about all that . I'm trying to move on and just asking for some advice on that. I only give the background so you have an idea where this is coming from.***
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/22/2011 11:33:15 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		No. i have gone too far on occasion, but it was my own fault for not knowing where to draw the line.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/22/2011 11:35:15 PM >

(in reply to secretbadgirl525)
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RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/22/2011 11:48:49 PM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		No, because I always communicated my list of limits with my partner BEFORE we started playing together.

He'd get the list of "I don't really like it but I'll do it for you", the "I hate it but I'll do it for you" and the "I will never, ever do this so don't even fucking try".

By the time we got into play, sometimes he forgot. So I'd remind him. That's what safewords are for.

The first list he'd push on regardless. The second list he'd push more gently, and back off if it got too much all in one go. And the third list - he wouldn't ever go there. If he did, everything would stop and we'd have a damn good talk about mutual respect.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk


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RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 5:06:46 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		I agree with the bunny.  I'll add that I'd suggest that you focus on someone that you feel you can trust.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to myotherself)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 5:25:10 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		OP - the responsibility is on you to get these lists clear in your head and establish boundaries.

quote:

He'd get the list of "I don't really like it but I'll do it for you", the "I hate it but I'll do it for you" and the "I will never, ever do this so don't even fucking try".


Or you can be willing to try something and then evaluate if it is for you. For example, I allowed a former D to manage my income for about 6 months, decided it wasn't for me, and renegotiated. Also, I'm now clear on under what circumstances I will and will not be with women.

I did feel coerced at times and take responsibility for not saying Stop when it was time to stop. (Hint - when you move from happy to please to resentment it's time to have a discussion.)

(in reply to secretbadgirl525)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 7:16:55 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: secretbadgirl525

I should start out with... my previous Owner NEVER actually physically forced me to do anything I didn't agree to. He NEVER threatened me with punishment or leaving me if I wasn't willing to do something outside my established limits. So please don't think that I was abused into doing something I didn't want to do, because I wasn't.

The problem is, like most slaves, I LIKE TO PLEASE MY MASTER (I also like some hinted level of force or coercion in my M/s relations). So when he would ask me to do something I didn't like... I would bend over backwards to TRY to be at least OK with it on some level because I wanted to please him. As such, I ended up doing (and agreeing to do others that in his defense, he never actually made me do) some things WAY outside my limits. I hate to admit it, but I am still ashamed of some of the things I did. When I was still with him it was easy to not focus on the couple of bad times but instead I focused on all the wonderful experiences he DID give me (some of them were initially outside my comfort zone, so not ALL his limit pushing was bad)

The problem I am having is that he and I split (for various reasons I don't really want to get into). Now I am conflicted. There is a LARGE part of me that loves and NEEDS to let my submissive side out but when I start talking to potential Masters/play partners I start getting REALLY skittish. I'm still relatively new to this world, so I some of my limits are not yet completely defined but when I start talking about letting someone else push/define my limits... I start to freak on the inside. I lose part of my desire to submit, scared I'll submit into doing things I regret... again.

What I'm asking here is, has anyone else experienced this? Been scared by a close call or bad relationship with a Master (or even just a play partner)? If so, how did you deal with it? Any tricks on being able to trust yourself or another Master again?




***On a side note, I understand my previous relationship wasn't perfect, and there are loads of things that didn't go right (and that perhaps I got involved with the wrong Master) but I really don't want to hear about all that . I'm trying to move on and just asking for some advice on that. I only give the background so you have an idea where this is coming from.***


Cripes. This is a great post, and one that should be read by M/S alike. I love the way you describe the mental dynamics that can go into limit stretching, and sometimes breaking.
Comments from the flip side of the kneel.
-It's MHO that, (and I mean this with absolutely no criticism at all of your prior owner. I don't know the circumstances or what occurred of how etc...but I do know that masters ain't perfect, that I sometimes make the wrong call and sometimes misjudge situations, reactions so I'm extending the benefit of doubt here) what you are discussing is one of the primary responsibilities of being a dominant. Subs like to please. It's who they are, what they do.And sometimes that desire to please can cause them to blur lines, do things they ordinarily wouldn't do.
And there are times that's a wonderful thing.
And others not so much.
It's on me as the one in charge to be cognizant of this, to be cautious in how I approach things, be aware of how she ticks internally and how she is reacting. And it's also on me to know her lines and her values, because there are times (Like when shes flying deep in subspace) when I'm a better judge for her than she.
And I'm a guy who likes to push limits. A lot. To the point where I am a "She has no limits but those I allow" sorta guy
My rule of thumb is simple-if it betrays who and what she is, is something that's going to cripple her spirit or involve tearing down her values, I don't do it. Pretty straightforward. If it's something that's gonna drop a weight on her she'll carry for the rest of her life, I don't do it.
Course, I also think a huge part of being dominant means that I do what's best for her within the parameters of our relationship. I think BDSM isn't about forming cages that enclose the spirit, but allowing folks to shed their inane outer images and shells and fly free as who and what they really are, which is a kinda amazing thing.

All that said, some of what you are saying is pretty common stuff that newbies wrestle with. There is a dichotomy that's involved in service, the burying of self, the blurring of lines and sometimes identities that takes time to sort out.

Lastly, to answer the questions at the end, build relationships on trust. It sounds trite, and is certainly way way easier said than done, especially now that you have some trust issues kicking around in the background, but in the end, it's the only way this thing that we do works over the long haul.

Just my 2 cents.


_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to secretbadgirl525)
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RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 8:48:20 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		Every time I see a Dom who says he likes to 'push limits' I see a giant red 'douchebag' sign over his head. You set a limit for a reason, if they respect you, they'll respect the limit. If they don't... then clearly they don't.

Now I have allowed certain limits to be 'talked down' or worked on, but only once I entered into a stable relationship and I knew that my partner was fine leaving my limits alone. The reason they were pushed is because -I- was ready for them to be pushed, and let him know that. Anyone who's more concerned with trying to break my limits instead of developing a deeper relationship with me first, is immediately off my list.

It might be a knee-jerk reaction but I have never once regretted tossing out the wankers without a second thought.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 9:15:41 AM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		If Master ever forced me past my hard limits he would not be my Master anymore.  I love him, but i need to be with someone who will respect the few hard  limits i  have.  Master also knows my soft limits the ones he can push, but he gos slow with them.  It works out though because the hard limits i have are thing Master is not into so we don't go there.

As for trust it takes time once burned twice shy.  Don't rush things meet them see what they are like you don't have to make firm commitment to any until you find one you can trust.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to ProlificNeeds)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 9:18:52 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds

Every time I see a Dom who says he likes to 'push limits' I see a giant red 'douchebag' sign over his head. You set a limit for a reason, if they respect you, they'll respect the limit. If they don't... then clearly they don't.

Now I have allowed certain limits to be 'talked down' or worked on, but only once I entered into a stable relationship and I knew that my partner was fine leaving my limits alone. The reason they were pushed is because -I- was ready for them to be pushed, and let him know that. Anyone who's more concerned with trying to break my limits instead of developing a deeper relationship with me first, is immediately off my list.

It might be a knee-jerk reaction but I have never once regretted tossing out the wankers without a second thought.


You don't see the contradiction here?

Chuckles.
I mean really.

Not to pick on ya, but going off on a small tangent using your comments as a springboard.
If we are talking limits, (Which in and of itself is kinda silly. Find two folks with common value systems, who care about and value about each other, know how they mesh, and it's amazing how the concept of limits never arises), there's only one way to have em and that's all the way. Either we do this, or we don't. No negotiation, serious, hard limits.

As in I don't fuck kids.
That's a good one cuz under no circumstance am I gonna have sex with a minor.

No amputations.
Another good one.

Nothing that will land me in prison.

But soft limits??? C'mon.
Either it is, or it's not.

The reason I don't really care for limits is that experience has shown me that there are things I really dig with some people...that I have hated doing with others. And vice versa.
And the only way we can discover what does and does not work for us is experimentation, which involves openmindedness.
And yep, occasionally mistakes will occur. I may push a button I don't know exists, or say or do the wrong thing.  But that's life.
I'm a dominant. That doesn't mean I'm perfect, whatever the Uber's may think.
When I fuck up, I own my mistake, apologize (Yep-a master can apologize to a slave. Earthshaking I know), do what I can to set my error right and we move on. Together.

That takes time to learn, for interactions to grow, for a flow and a feel to develop. And yeah, that takes, and leads to, and builds, trust.

So I tend to be careful about the word limits, because I've often found that the only thing they limit is the relationship and its potential.

(And as for her telling me, I repeat telling me, when she is ready to have them expanded-if that's the case I gotta wonder who's wearing the pants in the relationship. I mean, I'm a simple boy, on a good day I'm about as deep as a puddle in a drought, but to me domination means she does what I say and it's that straightforward. Not I ask her. Not I wait for her to tell me what to do, but I say, she does, end of story.)


And before anyone jumps on me about being unreasonable, read my comments in the prior posts about not doing things that tear her down internally etc...

< Message edited by Kana -- 9/23/2011 9:33:00 AM >

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to ProlificNeeds)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 12:38:40 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Course, I also think a huge part of being dominant means that I do what's best for her within the parameters of our relationship. I think BDSM isn't about forming cages that enclose the spirit, but allowing folks to shed their inane outer images and shells and fly free as who and what they really are, which is a kinda amazing thing.



....and the poet returns.
This is perhaps the most beautiful thing I've read on the boards in a quite a long while.


_____________________________

When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 1:22:16 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		My limits are not pushable. They are to protect my health: physical, mental and emotional. Anyone who doesn't care more about my well being than a certain activity is not someone I am compatible with.

Beyond that, it's always been - these things I am willing to try later on when I feel okay trying them out with you but I need to be the one who decides when it's the right time. Again, a man who pushed me on that when I wasn't ready would probably wind up ending the relationship.

Because when people force, coerce or manipulate me into doing things, I come to resent them. And relationships cannot thrive when filled with resentment. So rather than have resentment and regret, I would rather end the relationship first.

Which brings me to my point. Your boundaries are your responsibility. You need to say no, never to something and accept that if it's his fav thing then this isn't the relationship for you. And you need to develop better screening tools in order to pick people who care more about you then checking off activities on their life list as though it was a new bird they had traveled to see. I've done that with a birder, it's boring but not unhealthy for me. With things that are unhealthy for me, I won't do that. And I explain it first.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 3:05:18 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

talking limits...there's only one way to have em and that's all the way. Either we do this, or we don't. No negotiation, serious, hard limits...But soft limits??? C'mon. Either it is, or it's not.


In one sense, I agree with you. A limit is a limit is a limit. Its a hard, inflexible "No! Not now, not ever!" To say that something is a "soft limit" is, in essence, an oxymoron. A limit that is soft...well...that's not really a limit. But I think, in all honesty, that your beef is primarily with semantics. When most people use the term "soft limit," they are using the term to describe a set of actions they are willing to try out, but VERY scared to do so. They are using the term to tell their dom, "Hey, this is an issue for me so tread carefully." Or, they aren't sure if they'll like or dislike the activity...perhaps they don't have enough experience to know the activity is hard limit for them, but suspect that this is the case, and are essentially saying, "For the love of god USE CAUTION." Is the term "soft limit" a bad descriptor for these activities? Meh. I guess. But I see no wrong in communicating your fears to your dom. That can only help him act responsibly, right? If a sub told you "Here are my hard limits" but nothing else, not the things she loves and hates, no distinguishing between things that could scare her shitless and the stuff she's experienced, wouldn't you feel a little like you're in dark water? Having "soft limits" is just a way to communicate some of that.

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 4:48:34 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21

quote:

talking limits...there's only one way to have em and that's all the way. Either we do this, or we don't. No negotiation, serious, hard limits...But soft limits??? C'mon. Either it is, or it's not.


In one sense, I agree with you. A limit is a limit is a limit. Its a hard, inflexible "No! Not now, not ever!" To say that something is a "soft limit" is, in essence, an oxymoron. A limit that is soft...well...that's not really a limit. But I think, in all honesty, that your beef is primarily with semantics. When most people use the term "soft limit," they are using the term to describe a set of actions they are willing to try out, but VERY scared to do so. They are using the term to tell their dom, "Hey, this is an issue for me so tread carefully." Or, they aren't sure if they'll like or dislike the activity...perhaps they don't have enough experience to know the activity is hard limit for them, but suspect that this is the case, and are essentially saying, "For the love of god USE CAUTION." Is the term "soft limit" a bad descriptor for these activities? Meh. I guess. But I see no wrong in communicating your fears to your dom. That can only help him act responsibly, right? If a sub told you "Here are my hard limits" but nothing else, not the things she loves and hates, no distinguishing between things that could scare her shitless and the stuff she's experienced, wouldn't you feel a little like you're in dark water? Having "soft limits" is just a way to communicate some of that.

I see where you are coming from, but there's a world of difference between a limit and I'm scared/unsure/etc.. about what you are discussing doing.
One's communicating a fear, the other is drawing a line in the sand.


_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 4:49:26 PM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: secretbadgirl525

What I'm asking here is, has anyone else experienced this? Been scared by a close call or bad relationship with a Master (or even just a play partner)? If so, how did you deal with it? Any tricks on being able to trust yourself or another Master again?



It's quite normal, a learning curve if you will. As far as kink related relationships are concerned, Brooke had some personal issues from her past that took time to work through. It was not something I knew about until after she had become a part of my home. This was a problem because we are poly, and a failure on my part for not digging deep enough into who she was, and what her experiences were. I believe others have allready stated this, so I will just reiterate it here : Trust. You can't move forward in a relationship without it, and even when you do have it, if it is not respected to the maximum then a train wreck is on it's way.

Communication, and sharing some personal difficulties I experienced helped to build this bridge and open our relationship up. I am in complete agreement with Kana :

quote:


I think BDSM isn't about forming cages that enclose the spirit, but allowing folks to shed their inane outer images and shells and fly free as who and what they really are, which is a kinda amazing thing.


< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/23/2011 4:56:10 PM >

_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to secretbadgirl525)
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RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 5:16:48 PM   
secretbadgirl525


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/3/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you everyone for the responses. I really do appreciate them. I always suspected it would just take a lot time and patience to build that level of trust again in my next relationship. Its nice to have some confirmation to my suspicions! Hope you all have a WONDERFUL weekend.

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 7:00:03 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		I have never been coerced or forced into doing anything. I have done a LOT of things that I was not comfortable with doing and things I hated doing, but I don't regret doing any of them, and quite a number have turned out to be things I really enjoy.

(in reply to secretbadgirl525)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 7:13:00 PM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

You don't see the contradiction here?



I never used the term soft limits, because mine are hard limits as in "do this to me and it's over." limits. That doesn't mean I am not willing to talk about them.
I set limits not just based on morality and physical safety, but also for mental sanity based on my personal baggage. Yes I have it, and I deal with it, sometimes by omiting certain things or activities from my life.

If one day I over come that baggage, I no longer need that limit to keep me sane and well balanced. I don't expect you to understand it, but I understand it perfectly well. People change, if a persons likes can change, so can their limits.


Like I said before, someone who can't respect your limits won't respect you either.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/23/2011 9:09:40 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		You said he did nothing wrong and I'm going to take your word on that.

Having said that, the person you are having trouble trusting isn't any of these guys you have been talking to. The person you are having trouble is YOU.

You did things with this guy that maybe you only did to please him and 20/20 hindsight is telling you that maybe you would have not done those things. Nothing wrong with that. It can take time and experience to find your voice and develop assertiveness when it is needed.

Now you worry that your desire to please will cause you to do things you aren't sure you want to do and you will feel that shame again. The word "no" is not necessarily forbidden to s-types. It will take time to learn to trust yourself again and lesson number one is don't beat yourself up when you get nervous talking to someone. Just be honest with them. Tell them about what you told all of us and let them know that all your limits are going to be hard and "don't go there" types until YOU decide you are ready and only after a discussion (totally outside of play, like over coffee) has occurred.

Don't worry, you will get there. But get there on YOUR terms in YOUR time. Someone who understands that will go a long way towards helping you learn to trust yourself again and a guy worth your time and energy.

(in reply to secretbadgirl525)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/24/2011 7:35:34 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: poise


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Course, I also think a huge part of being dominant means that I do what's best for her within the parameters of our relationship. I think BDSM isn't about forming cages that enclose the spirit, but allowing folks to shed their inane outer images and shells and fly free as who and what they really are, which is a kinda amazing thing.



....and the poet returns.
This is perhaps the most beautiful thing I've read on the boards in a quite a long while.



I agree poise (gee what a surprise). I want to keep this post somewhere so that when a man asks me what I'm looking for I can pull it out and say. "this". Hey Kana if you cook and clean you may just be perfect.


_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Have you ever been 'forced' or coerced into going t... - 9/25/2011 8:09:44 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth


quote:

ORIGINAL: poise


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Course, I also think a huge part of being dominant means that I do what's best for her within the parameters of our relationship. I think BDSM isn't about forming cages that enclose the spirit, but allowing folks to shed their inane outer images and shells and fly free as who and what they really are, which is a kinda amazing thing.



....and the poet returns.
This is perhaps the most beautiful thing I've read on the boards in a quite a long while.



I agree poise (gee what a surprise). I want to keep this post somewhere so that when a man asks me what I'm looking for I can pull it out and say. "this". Hey Kana if you cook and clean you may just be perfect.




Errrrr, trained chef, including 4 years as a Sous Chef and soup Nazi at a 4 star french restaurant.
And yeah, I'm neat, like finicky neat so I clean (read organize) frequently.
Ta-Da!
Perfection made flesh=Kana :-)


_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 20
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