quote:


The part that I find interesting is the need for limits inside a close relationship. Any limits. How can I give myself over to anyone that didn't have the understanding that some things would affect me in a hideously debilitating manner, or that would cause me to want to leave?

I don't need to protect myself from him.....He's on my side!

To US, having any limit would be saying that I don't trust him to understand or care. It doesn't need spelling out in the form of a set of limits.

This, actually, IS the crux of our version of being in an M/s relationship, of being owned.  If I'd had a need for limits then he would have said *no* when I asked to be his because it'd be clear that we didn't know each other well enough.

agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

FR
Just like love can be blind, submission can be stupid.
I have a hard time saying no to people who have actual power over me as well, or who I respect, trust or like. I am working on that, or atleast on making someone wait a day before I answer so I have time to think it over- but it is still there and led me to things I regret.
It is a good tactic- asking the Dom if you can think on it first when they ask you something, explaining that you may otherwise say yes to something you are not comfortable with.
If they are a good person in general, they should not only accept but encourage that. If they are an asshole... well they are an asshole.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

How can I give myself over to anyone that didn't have the understanding that some things would affect me in a hideously debilitating manner, or that would cause me to want to leave?
<snip>
This, actually, IS the crux of our version of being in an M/s relationship, of being owned.  If I'd had a need for limits then he would have said *no* when I asked to be his because it'd be clear that we didn't know each other well enough.

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And I do not consider it particularly flaky. I am capable of standing up for myself, especially in the beginning of things. I simply run into the problem the more I come to like/respect someone. That only becomes a problem when someone is particularly good at hiding who they really are and pushy enough to try and convince me of things they know I am not comfy with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

I did say I am working on it. 
And I do not consider it particularly flaky. I am capable of standing up for myself, especially in the beginning of things. I simply run into the problem the more I come to like/respect someone. That only becomes a problem when someone is particularly good at hiding who they really are and pushy enough to try and convince me of things they know I am not comfy with.

Drinking also really affects this, and some guys will use that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

I did say I am working on it. 
And I do not consider it particularly flaky. I am capable of standing up for myself, especially in the beginning of things. I simply run into the problem the more I come to like/respect someone. That only becomes a problem when someone is particularly good at hiding who they really are and pushy enough to try and convince me of things they know I am not comfy with.

Drinking also really affects this, and some guys will use that.

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ORIGINAL: Kana

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ORIGINAL: talltxsub

There is not a contradiction here. It is frustrating to talk with dominants who seem to have the impression that their goal, upon finding something that a submissive defines as a limit (or hard limit?), must be to overwhelm that particular limit. When the sub then asserts that a limit is a limit, he/she gets called names and told that they are not really submissive.

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ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds

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ORIGINAL: Kana

You don't see the contradiction here?

I never used the term soft limits, because mine are hard limits as in "do this to me and it's over." limits. That doesn't mean I am not willing to talk about them.
I set limits not just based on morality and physical safety, but also for mental sanity based on my personal baggage. Yes I have it, and I deal with it, sometimes by omitting certain things or activities from my life.

If one day I over come that baggage, I no longer need that limit to keep me sane and well balanced. I don't expect you to understand it, but I understand it perfectly well. People change, if a persons likes can change, so can their limits.


Like I said before, someone who can't respect your limits won't respect you either.

Huh? I in no way shape or form stepped down the road you are paving for me.
My goal in a relationship is to have fun, enjoy the presence of a nice female, spend time w/someone I like, cause some terrific screams, share some bodily fluids. It's certainly not to sift through her life seeking out "limits" and then trying to break them, for no purpose than because I think it's a good idea.
I don't go smashing through peoples limits for no reason and I seriously don't go around calling folks less than sub/slave for having them.

Fuck. I have limits. All sane people do. It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to heckle someone for having them.

So please don't go putting words in my mouth cuz I said nothing even close to what you are implying.

I see a contradiction for a simple reason-I don't believe in soft limits. Either one is willing to do something, or they're not. It's that simple.

Once again, repeat after me. A limit is a limit is a limit. There is no fucking around. Limits are things like, No amputations. No chainsaw sex. No minors. No sex with aliens/dinosaurs/muppets/ different family/genus/species sort of stuff. You know, acts that in a million years for a million dollars one wouldn't do

Otherwise it's something they don't like doing, but under the right circumstances/situation/mood/person they will...which to my mind is not a limit. That's just a preference.

In this case the poster said first that she had limits, they were there for a reason and if the dominant tried to move through them then it was a red flag and he was an asshat douchebag.
Ok, I can accept that.
In the very next breath, she said, however, that at a certain point, she was willing to let limits be "talked down" or worked on.
No contradiction here eh?
Let's try that once more. If a guy talks to her about breaking limits he's an selfish jerk, but it's also acceptable to be talked down. Huh?
The two sentences defy each other. Hence, they are contradictory.

And as for the she tells him when she's ready for limits to be broken/move ahead...if that's the case, then I have to wonder who's wearing the pants in the relationship cuz it certainly sounds as if the sub is setting terms and timetables, and that's not exactly what I see as submission.
JMHO and all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl



I would consider it flakey. You haven't really explained WHY you do it, you just have sort of said *submissive is stupid*. That's not really a great explanation and not many doms worth their salt would dive into that without a fair amount of reservation.

Drinking affects perception, fullstop. Sure it gets used.Ever heard of the *Two'o'clock shag?* * Beer goggles?* etc etc?

A clue....... M hasn't hidden who he is...Hint, nor have I. Hint..it is actually possible to bypass all that by realising that *liking and respecting* someone means something more than *pleasing them* to satisfy being *submissive*.

You run into a problem when you like and respect someone...AND when you're pissed.

Can guys do this when you've spent a year or so getting to know them?

agirl

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ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

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ORIGINAL: agirl



I would consider it flakey. You haven't really explained WHY you do it, you just have sort of said *submissive is stupid*. That's not really a great explanation and not many doms worth their salt would dive into that without a fair amount of reservation.

Drinking affects perception, fullstop. Sure it gets used.Ever heard of the *Two'o'clock shag?* * Beer goggles?* etc etc?

A clue....... M hasn't hidden who he is...Hint, nor have I. Hint..it is actually possible to bypass all that by realising that *liking and respecting* someone means something more than *pleasing them* to satisfy being *submissive*.

You run into a problem when you like and respect someone...AND when you're pissed.

Can guys do this when you've spent a year or so getting to know them?

agirl

No, I said it CAN be stupid. Please try to keep things within context instead of warping them in some superior chip on the shoulder.
It was actually in reference to when I was 18 and new to this world, and believed a lot of what men trying to get into my kinky pants told me. I believe it is similar to what I hear of as sub frenzy, when you are desperate to get your kink seen to, and do not think everything through. While I went through that phase, it was still stupid, and I can call it such if I wish.
I have made tons of mistakes, many of which happened when I was with someone I thought I could trust, and it turned out not to be so. People can be quite deceiving or even change over time to someone completely diferent from the one you trusted

As for can guys do this after a year or so... Absolutely yes. I was with my last boyfriend for nine months before he stole my credit and debit cards while I was stuck in the wheelchair. Up to this point he had been a great and sweet man, who I trusted completely. Apparently he had developed a gambling problem and turned from someone who I respected and trusted to someone who was beneath contempt and always looking to be the victim.

But go ahead with your snarky better than thou'ness. It's funny.

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Drinking also really affects this, and some guys will use that.

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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Drinking also really affects this, and some guys will use that.

Don't drink and drive, drink and dive, or drink and be dominated.

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ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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Drinking also really affects this, and some guys will use that.

Don't drink and drive, drink and dive, or drink and be dominated.

You forgot drink and walk in crutches in the mud.

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ORIGINAL: agirl

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ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

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Drinking also really affects this, and some guys will use that.

Don't drink and drive, drink and dive, or drink and be dominated.

You forgot drink and walk in crutches in the mud.

Do you live in Scotland, specifically central Glasgow?.......lol

agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


It's on me as the one in charge to be cognizant of this, to be cautious in how I approach things, be aware of how she ticks internally and how she is reacting. And it's also on me to know her lines and her values, because there are times (Like when shes flying deep in subspace) when I'm a better judge for her than she.

And I'm a guy who likes to push limits. A lot.To the point where I am a "She has no limits but those I allow" sorta guy My rule of thumb is simple-if it betrays who and what she is, is something that's going to cripple her spirit or involve tearing down her values, I don't do it. Pretty straightforward. If it's something that's gonna drop a weight on her she'll carry for the rest of her life, I don't do it.
Course, I also think a huge part of being dominant means that I do what's best for her within the parameters of our relationship.

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ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Either you trust me not to break your spirit or you don't.

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ORIGINAL: devilsmuse

OK, so I have gathered that many of you feel that limits are something that should always be completely respected, never pushed or even discussed about pushing (if the SUB themselves did not bring it up). I pose this question to those of you who share that opinion....

Assuming we define a limit as something that truly troubles you and would affect you very negatively mentally (or physically)

How did you find those LIMITS initially? If you say limits should never be tested, how do you know where your limits lie? How do you know the difference between something you just don't like, something you are scared of and something that is truly a limit?

I ask this because this was my first Master, I trusted him, and to this day we still talk from time to time. We parted because our vanilla lives were keeping us apart not the fact that he pushed my limits. I will say when he and I first started playing, my limits were very tight. Things like whips, canes and floggers scared me. I also had no idea what to think about things like hard bondage, like breath play (As controversial as that is) I had them all initially as limits (one of them a "hard" one at that). My former Owner, knowing me well pushed these as he saw fit. Personally *I am glad he did*, because now those exact things I was scared of, or thought I didn't like, I have found I truly enjoy them. I started this forum because for all the limits I loved him pushing, there were a couple I did not enjoy. (I did post this in a rather emotional state, we had just broken up a couple days prior)

So again I pose:

How did you find those LIMITS initially? If you say limits should never be tested, how do you know where your limits lie? How do you know the difference between something you just don't like, something you are scared of and something that is truly a limit?

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ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

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ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Either you trust me not to break your spirit or you don't.

i think that's the crux of the matter.
i can't imagine using the word "owner" for someone i couldn't trust in this way. it does make me wonder why people do it if they can't.