RE: Prenups (Full Version)

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Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:11:04 PM)

I had a case where this happened, and it was horrible. Relatively young guy was killed in an accident, and his insurance policy still had a former girlfriend as the beneficiary, not his current wife. Had it been a former wife, the beneficiary would have changed by operation of law. But since the ex and he were not married, she ended up getting the proceeds of the policy, or most of it anyway. It sucked.
So the automatic assumption is that a preen up is just to keep a spouse from taking what is "yours". It can also be a way to protect them, too, particularly in second marriages where there are adult children.
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

It really is amazing to talk to a guy and hear that his will or insurance policy still names his first wife as beneficiary, and that he just never bothered/got around to changing it.. Imo, that happens a lot. Great for his first wife tho, not so great for his present one...


That TO ME more than anything else tells me a lot about him and nothing good. I can understand take a bit of time to get it done. How long had it been since the divorce?




Arpig -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 12:17:24 AM)

quote:

The beauty of youth and romance is the idea that "love conquers all" and the feelings one has on their wedding day (and that time immediately preceding it) will last forever.
And the ugliness of age is that all too often romance, love, and the other things that make life worth living get forgotten and buried under loads of resentment, suppressed anger, cynicism and self centered materialistic greed.





tazzygirl -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 12:23:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Not true. Depends upon the terms. The court will try to reconcile them, and actually the later document may control. A well written will and prenuptial done as part of a coherent estate plan will work together. And prenupsnoften have provisions that say they terminate upon the death of one of the spouses. At which point the will will control. Or, the prenuptial wil determine what property a decedent has to distribute under a will.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Whichever was written first... as in all legal documents.




Yup, something Angel brought up in a later post and something I agreed with.




tazzygirl -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 12:51:05 AM)

~FR

I see prenups as a protection of sorts... like insurance.

Great to have, both parties are protected.

One party can protect assets at a future date, depending on how its written.

With respect to financial issues ancillary to divorce, prenuptial agreements are routinely upheld and enforced by courts in virtually all states. There are circumstances in which courts have refused to enforce certain portions/provisions of such agreements. For example, in an April, 2007 decision by the Appellate Division in New Jersey, the court refused to enforce a provision of a prenuptial agreement relating to the wife's waiver of her interest in the husband's savings plan. The New Jersey court held that when the parties executed their prenuptial agreement, it was not foreseeable that the husband would later increase his contributions toward the savings plan.

A sunset provision may be inserted into a prenuptial agreement, specifying that after a certain amount of time, the agreement will expire. In a few states, such as Maine, the agreement will automatically lapse after the birth of a child, unless the parties renew the agreement. In other states, a certain number of years of marriage will cause a prenuptial agreement to lapse. In states that have adopted the UPAA (Uniform Premarital Agreement Act), no sunset provision is provided by statute, but one could be privately contracted for. Note that states have different versions of the UPAA.

Choice of law provisions are critical in prenups. Parties to the agreement can elect to have the law of the state they are married in govern both the interpretation of the agreement and how property is divided at the time of divorce. In the absence of a choice of law clause it is the law of the place the parties divorce, not the law of the state they were married that decides property and support issues.

In drafting an agreement, it is important to recognize that there are two types of state laws that govern divorce – equitable distribution, of which there are 41 states and 9 states that are some variation of community property. An agreement written in a community property state may not be designed to govern what occurs in an equitable distribution state and vice versa. It may be necessary to retain attorneys in both states to cover the possible eventuality that the parties may live in a state other than the state they were married. Often people have more than one home in different states or they move a lot because of their work so it is important to take that into account in the drafting process.
There are several ways that a prenuptial agreement can be attacked in court. These include lack of voluntariness, unconscionability, and a failure to disclose assets.[7]


This type of law fascinates me.

quote:

In NJ, a spouse can NOT be disinherited, not by will or pre-nup. They will get 1/3 of the estate. A pre-nup will not supercede a will and in most cases, the most recent legal document is the one that takes precedence, not the first written. If that were the case, people would never be able to change their wills.


3. What is the elective share?

If a spouse dies, then the surviving spouse may elect to take a one-third share of their estate. This is called an elective share. Basically, a spouse can't be disinherited. The surviving spouse has a right to an elective share of the deceased's estate. The only way that a surviving spouse can be completely disinherited is if the parties execute a prenuptial agreement. In a prenuptial agreement both spouses can agree to waive any claims to an elective share of each other's respective estates.

Your Elective Estate not only includes property in your name alone, but it also includes most assets with beneficiary designations such as bank accounts, securities, IRA accounts, your interest in jointly held property, annuities, certain interests in trusts, the cash value of life insurance, and even property that you might transfer to a child during the one-year period preceding your death. In other words, you cannot easily ignore your spouse's rights to his or her elective share of your estate. Many clients ask me how the surviving spouse will be able to claim his or her share if the assets are left in trust for a child. The answer is that the surviving spouse can file a probate proceeding, and then force the child to return the assets to satisfy the elective share obligation.


http://www.divorcesource.com/NJ/ARTICLES/sliwinski62.html

The elective share is New Jersey law. So it seems the 1/3 isnt iron clad




projectneedles -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 12:59:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Well I would agree with that except that I have been told I am narrow minded, pig headed, too young to understand, selfish, self centered, ignorant, hypocritical, purposely obtuse, and a few other things for not seeing things the way others do, so it would seem that there are a few people who are indeed quite interested in having me change my opinion.



Ya know, I can't wait for your poly relationship to disolved and everything around you to turn to shit and watch you backpeddle your ignorance a bit and grow some. You are narrow minded, childish, self centered, and entirely too fucking stupid to fucking understand anything. If I could have a gag it would be to shut you the fuck up so maybe you'd learn to listen to others instead of attack them.

However since its still very likely you, arpig and the other 3 fuckwats are all just part of arpigs multiple personality disorder, its kind of impossible to figments in one very tiresome and pathetic little mans imagination to disolve in such a way I guess Ill just have to keep dreaming.




Epytropos -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:05:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: projectneedles

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Well I would agree with that except that I have been told I am narrow minded, pig headed, too young to understand, selfish, self centered, ignorant, hypocritical, purposely obtuse, and a few other things for not seeing things the way others do, so it would seem that there are a few people who are indeed quite interested in having me change my opinion.



Ya know, I can't wait for your poly relationship to disolved and everything around you to turn to shit and watch you backpeddle your ignorance a bit and grow some. You are narrow minded, childish, self centered, and entirely too fucking stupid to fucking understand anything. If I could have a gag it would be to shut you the fuck up so maybe you'd learn to listen to others instead of attack them.

However since its still very likely you, arpig and the other 3 fuckwats are all just part of arpigs multiple personality disorder, its kind of impossible to figments in one very tiresome and pathetic little mans imagination to disolve in such a way I guess Ill just have to keep dreaming.


You seem very invested in that rather unpleasant fantasy. Something you'd like to share with the group?




Arpig -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:07:56 AM)

And we should pay attention to an obvious sockpuppet for exactly what reason? [:D][:D]
Why don't you have the balls to post your opinions under your regular name?




tj444 -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:08:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
The beauty of youth and romance is the idea that "love conquers all" and the feelings one has on their wedding day (and that time immediately preceding it) will last forever. Some do marry until deat, some happily, others sticking it out because of the vow even though everyone is miserable.


Imo, some (many?) young people have that idealized fantasy version of love, marriage, etc and that colors their view. I think its all Disney’s fault, Cinderella, Lady & the Tramp, Prince Charming, etc, little girls are brainwashed by those fairy tales. When they get older, more brainwashing via Harlequin Romance novels and all the sappy chick flicks and tv movies. (ugh!!!)

It would be interesting to know if there is a correlation between if parents staying married (happily) and parents divorcing (bitterly) and the use of prenups by their grown children. I wonder how the reality of a nasty parental divorce affects how they deal with their own marriages later on. And I wonder if parents with happy marriages that last give their grown kids a different outlook and perhaps don’t consider the possibility of their own marriage failing.




projectneedles -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:12:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos

quote:

ORIGINAL: projectneedles

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Well I would agree with that except that I have been told I am narrow minded, pig headed, too young to understand, selfish, self centered, ignorant, hypocritical, purposely obtuse, and a few other things for not seeing things the way others do, so it would seem that there are a few people who are indeed quite interested in having me change my opinion.



Ya know, I can't wait for your poly relationship to disolved and everything around you to turn to shit and watch you backpeddle your ignorance a bit and grow some. You are narrow minded, childish, self centered, and entirely too fucking stupid to fucking understand anything. If I could have a gag it would be to shut you the fuck up so maybe you'd learn to listen to others instead of attack them.

However since its still very likely you, arpig and the other 3 fuckwats are all just part of arpigs multiple personality disorder, its kind of impossible to figments in one very tiresome and pathetic little mans imagination to disolve in such a way I guess Ill just have to keep dreaming.


You seem very invested in that rather unpleasant fantasy. Something you'd like to share with the group?



Because I'm tired of every thread on this entire forum that the twatwaffles post on becomeing a clusterfuck. Im tired of the constant derailment because of either arpig running to the rescue to one of his personalities. Or all the other bullshit. A thread that would have lasted maybe 8 pages is now close to double again. Why? Because heather or one of the fuckwits of her "family" is always right, they know all, and thats it the end of it. And everyone who has a difference of opinion will be attacked until they just give up because its not worth it.

Frankly I think its time the little fucks get a taste of their own bitter medicine so they stop the antics that are destorying the forums.




Arpig -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:16:56 AM)

Translation: Hannah called me on my bullshit.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:26:43 AM)

Well, this thread really has jumped the shark. The fact is, I have not read anything that has convinced me not to do a prenuptial when I remarry. I think it is essential, for many reasons, even though I believe my love is an honorable person. I also will continue to advise my clients to do one when they get married. It would be malpractice to do otherwise. The fact that some people, who obviously have no assets to worry about and who don't seem to have much relevant experience, think it shows a lack of trust has not persuaded me otherwise.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:32:23 AM)

Sigh. Why does every thread on here eventually turn into a discussion about either the fearsome foursome or Kevin?




Epytropos -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:33:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Sigh. Why does every thread on here eventually turn into a discussion about either the fearsome foursome or Kevin?


Seriously.




Arpig -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:34:24 AM)

Because there are some people who take these forums far too seriously.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:45:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

The beauty of youth and romance is the idea that "love conquers all" and the feelings one has on their wedding day (and that time immediately preceding it) will last forever.
And the ugliness of age is that all too often romance, love, and the other things that make life worth living get forgotten and buried under loads of resentment, suppressed anger, cynicism and self centered materialistic greed.




You would know all about that. You are old, ugly, angry, resentful, cynical and self centered. Such a shame that defending the youngins still doesn't make them want to have sex with you.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:51:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


The elective share is New Jersey law. So it seems the 1/3 isnt iron clad



Chances are other states follow the same rule, it is just that NJ is my home state and where I worked, so I'm most familiar with their laws.

If memory serves, one of the reasons that law was enacted was to protect women from husbands who left them destitute. It is the same reason that in NJ, a husband and wife can not purchase a primary residence deeded to just one spouse.




tazzygirl -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:52:42 AM)

Noticed that.. and its a good thing that the only way a spouse can be disinherited is that they have to agree to be.




Arpig -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:55:37 AM)

[sm=rofl.gif][sm=rofl.gif]




LafayetteLady -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 1:56:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
The beauty of youth and romance is the idea that "love conquers all" and the feelings one has on their wedding day (and that time immediately preceding it) will last forever. Some do marry until deat, some happily, others sticking it out because of the vow even though everyone is miserable.


Imo, some (many?) young people have that idealized fantasy version of love, marriage, etc and that colors their view. I think its all Disney’s fault, Cinderella, Lady & the Tramp, Prince Charming, etc, little girls are brainwashed by those fairy tales. When they get older, more brainwashing via Harlequin Romance novels and all the sappy chick flicks and tv movies. (ugh!!!)

It would be interesting to know if there is a correlation between if parents staying married (happily) and parents divorcing (bitterly) and the use of prenups by their grown children. I wonder how the reality of a nasty parental divorce affects how they deal with their own marriages later on. And I wonder if parents with happy marriages that last give their grown kids a different outlook and perhaps don’t consider the possibility of their own marriage failing.



It would be an interesting question, and definately not a statistic I ever paid attention to. I can say that my parents were happily married until my father's death, and if I were to ever get married again, I would consider a pre-nup and I have several friends who also had parents who were happily married that would as well. Of course, we are older and have been married once before.

I think for the standard young people who get married and haven't aquire anything, they don't consider a pre-nup. Among first marriages, pre-nups are still among those who have "stuff" and the wealthy. After all, when you don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, what is there to protect?




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 2:17:23 AM)

Actually, Washington has something similar in that a disinherited spouse can make a claim for the medical home, regardless of title and in spite of a will




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