RE: Prenups (Full Version)

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Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 10:45:14 AM)

I Stand corrected aileen. I honestly hope it works out for you. Still doesn't affect my opinion, though.
Just out of curiousity, what if shorey wanted one? That's his name, right? Would you consider it an affront and refuse to marry him?
n.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

That's in the case of a will, not a prenuptial. So no. Although I suppose a judge can always ignore a prenuptial too. That is why god invented appeals courts and that is where the case would go it that happened.
Arpig, thanks for your opinion and all, but like I implied earlier, who cares what someone who has made it clear they have no assets to protect thinks about the topic? Someone in your shoes should probably pray that their potential spouse doesn't ask for a prenuptial. The only reason I mention that is because the way this discussion seems to have largely broken down is that, those with nothing to protect think prenups are unnecessary and insulting. Those who have been around the block and have built or inherited some things of value, think they are important. Coincidence? Probably not.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

So, much as I said way back at the beginning of the thread, they can be set aside if the judge deems it appropriate to do so.....



I didn't have assets when I got married back in 1991.
I do now. I own a home, my own business, a car, artwork, expensive camera equipment.
I still wouldn't want a prenup.



Aileen1968 -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 10:50:31 AM)

Based on what he knows about me, my divorce and how it went, I'd be incredibly surprised if he'd even bother to ask.
And like I said, I would never even think of trying to go after his assets.
My father would smack me upside the head if he were alive and I did anything like that.

edited to add....it's not Shorey's style to have one either.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 10:54:14 AM)

Actually, reading your previous post about how you only got 20% of the assets from your first marriage is not really a good advertisement for not doing a prenuptial, now that I think about it. My clients would be pissed if that is how their divorces went. NOw, if you had said, i was treated so absolutely fairly in my divorce, and things were divided up so completely fairly, that a prenuptial would have been superfluous, that would have been a good advertisement. Actually, that is exactly how if felt about my divorce. Still would get a prenuptial now though. Glad you are still friends, though my ex and I are too.
I wish you much happiness and success. But what if he did ask?
I would actually take the time to go through and tally the results as to who believes in prenups, and what assets they have, in order to support my statement, which i still believe is generally true. Sadly, though, I have to go to work, I am getting ready for a three hour mediation in a divorce. They have fought about everything from the family home to inheritances. The mediation is because they are fighting about the firewood. Seriously. Shoulda had a prenuptial, would have made the divorce a lot cheaper.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Based on what he knows about me, my divorce and how it went, I'd be incredibly surprised if he'd even bother to ask.
And like I said, I would never even think of trying to go after his assets.
My father would smack me upside the head if he were alive and I did anything like that.




Arpig -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 10:58:20 AM)

quote:

One of those links took me to aneznoz, who didn't say what he or she has in terms of assets.
Who, according to what she has posted elsewhere on these boards in unrelated contexts is quite wealthy, certainly on a level beyond that of the average poster on these boards.
quote:

One went to Aileen, who said she didn't have much.
No, what she said was that she walked away from her previous marriage without much...you are assuming that there wasn't much in order to bolster your argument.

Now I won't go into detail on how Suze "apparently" has assets, because that would be being a white knight, and goodness knows we wouldn't want to upset her snottiness LaT, but I can't help but wonder if you worded it this way so as to call the existence of those assets into question, the better to dismiss the opinion.

quote:

I also said that is the way it has largely broken down, which acknowledges some exceptions.
I just went through the entire thread, and there were 9 people who expressed an opinion against pre-nups, and of those 9, 5 have assets and of the remaining 4, at least one probably had assets in the marriage to which she referred.

So you breakdown is in fact, 55%  or more of those opposed have assets worth preserving. So much for your impression being accurate, eh?

I don't suppose your advocacy of prenups has anything to do with the fact that you make your living writing them up does it?

ETA: reading Aileen's latest posts, I will amend the numbers to read: 6/9, which makes your contention even less related to reality.



Aileen1968 -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 10:59:15 AM)

The 20% was all my own doing. It's all I wanted. It created stability in my daughters' lives at a really bad time.
I could have taken half of the assets but that would have meant selling the home we literally built together and where my daughters were conceived and raised.
It was important for me that that home remained.
Plus, there's a huge sense of satisfaction in doing shit on your own without handouts.
I was treated well in my 18 year marriage and we have kids together. Why would I want to make his life miserable just out of spite.

If Shorey asked I would just because I know it would never be an issue. I would never go after his things so it doesn't matter if there's one in place.



Aileen1968 -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:01:25 AM)

Now if I can just get him to Vegas and get him drunk at one of those little white chapels.... [:D][:D][:D][:D]



Aileen1968 -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:08:29 AM)

And on a funny note...we got divorced without lawyers. Imagine that.
We did it so that third and forth parties of people didn't rape us dry.

I highly recommend that people don't use lawyers and just sit down and talk to each other and try to remember that they are dealing with someone that at one time they must have loved enough to marry.



windchymes -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:15:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Actually, reading your previous post about how you only got 20% of the assets from your first marriage is not really a good advertisement for not doing a prenuptial, now that I think about it. Glad you are still friends, though.
I wish you much happiness and success. But what if he did ask?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Based on what he knows about me, my divorce and how it went, I'd be incredibly surprised if he'd even bother to ask.
And like I said, I would never even think of trying to go after his assets.
My father would smack me upside the head if he were alive and I did anything like that.




Not everyone goes after marital assets like a barracuda [:)]. First time I got divorced, I just wanted a quick, clean break and let him keep the house. It wasn't worth much anyway, and he ended up taking a loss on it when he did sell it. I took my own car, the kids (though on paper I had custody, we had more of a shared-custory, informal arrangement), and the washer & dryer. And my own personal possessions, of course. It was all I wanted, and it was way less than 20% of the assets. (He kept the outstanding debt, too, his choice.)

Second time, it was kind of the opposite. He was the one who wanted out quickly and he took it upon himself to sign the house we had bought together over to me, and he took what he came into the marriage with, and a couple of things we had bought together that I didn't want.

Maybe I was just lucky....?



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:21:27 AM)



LOL. Glad someone took the time to do that. I am only going to respond to one of your statements, just because I really don't care what you think. If my initial impression as to who believes in prenups was wrong, so be it. Feel better now that you have "won"? The fact remains, there are some people whose opinions I consider more valuable than others.
Still, I am willing to modify my opinion to this extent. I don't think you need a prenuptial if you are a)bill gates (or arpig, apparently. Oops, I used that word "apparently"again. Must mean I think he is a liar) b) have no assets, aNd likely will never have any assets or c) are willing to take some financial risks and won't sue me for malpractice if it doesn't work out.
I am not advocating that anyone get a prenup, at least anyone that is not paying for my advice. Since I doubt I will be doing anyone on heres prenuptial agreement, and because, truthfully, contested divorces are where the real money is, no, the fact that I write prenups for a living is not why I am advocating them. It also isn't why I would and will sign one myself. My love actually is much better off financially then I am. I still don't want him or his adult daughter to feel like I am some kind of gold digger. In my case, I think a prenuptial will improve my chances of a successful and happy marriage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

One of those links took me to aneznoz, who didn't say what he or she has in terms of much...you are assuming that there wasn't much in order to bolster your

quote:

I also said that is the way it has largely broken down, which acknowledges some exceptions.
I just went through the entire thread, and there were 9 people who expressed an opinion against pre-nups, and of those 9, 5 have assets and of the remaining 4, at least one probably had assets in the marriage to which she referred.

So you breakdown is in fact, 55%  or more of those opposed have assets worth preserving. So much for your impression being accurate, eh?

I don't suppose your advocacy of prenups has anything to do with the fact that you make your living writing them up does it?

ETA: reading Aileen's latest posts, I will amend the numbers to read: 6/9, which makes your contention even less related to reality.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:24:04 AM)

I got divorced without a lawyer also. I also took thenfirst offer he made me, because it was completely fair. As for your recommendation, I recommend that too. Sometimes it is just not possible, in the heat of the moment. People get married for different reasons. Sometimes it has little to do with love.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

And on a funny note...we got divorced without lawyers. Imagine that.
We did it so that third and forth parties of people didn't rape us dry.

I highly recommend that people don't use lawyers and just sit down and talk to each other and try to remember that they are dealing with someone that at one time they must have loved enough to marry.



kalikshama -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:30:22 AM)

quote:

I highly recommend that people don't use lawyers and just sit down and talk to each other and try to remember that they are dealing with someone that at one time they must have loved enough to marry.


My ex husband and I went to mediation, made an agreement, and when we were in the elevator leaving the lawyer's office, he said "Fuck that, I'm not doing that." [8|]

He spent a lot of money on a lawyer and would have gone to jail for acting on the bad advice he received had I not pleaded with the judge to give him time and not throw him in jail that day as intended.

I don't think his second lawyer did him much good, either, but at least did him no harm.



LaTigresse -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:32:50 AM)

I wish I could have gotten divorced without an attorney. It would have been a great deal less expensive. The boy I married got lost in the man I divorced, due to drugs and alcohol. When that mess was over my kids and I had our clothes, their toys, and a few kitchen items. Everything else had disappeared with the ex.

From where I sit, it was a fair deal. He cleaned us out financially and materially. My kids and I got our lives.



Termyn8or -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:42:06 AM)

FR

Y'all seen "War Of The Roses" ?

T^T



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:52:36 AM)

Actually, responsibility for debt can also be another good reason for a prenup.  A lot of younger people have huge student loans.  If their marriage fails, is it fair that this be considered a community debt?  I don't think so, but of course, this is just my opinion.
I had a friend whose husband ran up 25K in credit card debt as a result of gambling.  A prenup would have gone a long way in an argument that she was not liable for this debt under a community property analysis.  But alas, she didn't have one.  Oh well, she paid it off eventually.

Really, I wish more people would just work things out in their divorce and put their children first, for god sakes.  Then, there wouldn't be a need to waste (and yes, I often think of it as a waste) money on an attorney.  Now that very few people have substantial equity in their homes, it is hard to see what they are fighting about, half the time.  But they so often don't think rationally in the heat of the moment.  Which is why I probably will not practice family law for my whole career, sometimes it is really hard not to tell people they are fucking idiots and very selfish when it comes to taking care of their children. 





LaTigresse -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:52:52 AM)

When our 'war' was over......I seriously just wished he would OD and be done with it.

From what little I hear now.....his brain is fried, he is homeless unless some kind person tries to save him from himself on occasion, and he rarely talks to his children and has not, will never, meet his grandchildren.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:54:50 AM)

God that is sad.  Did he change during the marriage, or did you just not see what he was like when you were "dating"?

I am happy to say that my ex and I have both prospered after the divorce.  He seems happy, I KNOW I am happy.  I am convinced our split was the right thing to do.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

When our 'war' was over......I seriously just wished he would OD and be done with it.

From what little I hear now.....his brain is fried, he is homeless unless some kind person tries to save him from himself on occasion, and he rarely talks to his children and has not, will never, meet his grandchildren.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 11:57:03 AM)

Yep.  I also read "Bleak House", which is about a will contest, not a divorce.  Still, that book does a very good job of describing how devastating an extended legal contest can be, emotionally and financially.   I try to get other people to read it before they start these little wars, but usually to no avail.  I still feel that Dickens said it best.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Y'all seen "War Of The Roses" ?

T^T



windchymes -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 12:03:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Actually, responsibility for debt can also be another good reason for a prenup.  A lot of younger people have huge student loans.  If their marriage fails, is it fair that this be considered a community debt?  I don't think so, but of course, this is just my opinion.
I had a friend whose husband ran up 25K in credit card debt as a result of gambling.  A prenup would have gone a long way in an argument that she was not liable for this debt under a community property analysis.  But alas, she didn't have one.  Oh well, she paid it off eventually.




Technically, one party "taking" the debt is only a sort-of gentleman's agreement, because it's not enforceable. If you are the co-signer on a debt, you are still ultimately responsible for it if they reniege (sp?) on the agreement. The loan company does not care that the other party is responsible due to a divorce agreement. They want their money, and YOU signed for it, and though they're sympathetic (yeah right), they will come after you just as hard and it will affect your credit rating just as hard.

Same with "quit-claim" deeds. Signing one of those only takes your name off of the deed, you cannot be taken off the loan unless the other party buys you out or refinances without you.



LaTigresse -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 12:08:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

God that is sad.  Did he change during the marriage, or did you just not see what he was like when you were "dating"?

I am happy to say that my ex and I have both prospered after the divorce.  He seems happy, I KNOW I am happy.  I am convinced our split was the right thing to do.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

When our 'war' was over......I seriously just wished he would OD and be done with it.

From what little I hear now.....his brain is fried, he is homeless unless some kind person tries to save him from himself on occasion, and he rarely talks to his children and has not, will never, meet his grandchildren.




Both. We were young. He had a history of some drug and alcohol abuse. When we were dating, there was nothing that would indicate the extent that would evolve later. And again.......we were VERY VERY young and I was hugely naive. I saw the world through filters of things and people either being good or bad. For a long time, if people were good on the surface, I took that at face value. They had to be blatantly horrible for me to believe they were. Very little middle ground. It was a very black and white view of things. I assumed that maturity would lead to......maturity. It didn't for him and did for me.

Still, at this point in my life, I have no regrets. Except perhaps, for the difficulties my kids suffered because of him. For myself, no regrets at all. I was 50% of that relationship regardless of what he did or did not do.

For reasons not worth going into here, a prenup would have been worthless in that relationship. Breaking one more law, especially one so unimportant to him, would have meant nothing to him. After all, his business cohorts were the likes of Anthony and Michael Spilotro.



AneNoz -> RE: Prenups (9/26/2011 12:15:54 PM)

quote:

Still, I am willing to modify my opinion to this extent. I don't think you need a prenuptial if you are a)bill gates (or arpig, apparently. Oops, I used that word "apparently"again. Must mean I think he is a liar) b) have no assets, aNd likely will never have any assets or c) are willing to take some financial risks and won't sue me for malpractice if it doesn't work out.
Remove from your conclusion the points both A and B and there is merit in what you say, else it is but petulance.

Be at peace
Aneka



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