RE: Prenups (Full Version)

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HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:09:35 AM)

quote:

I put all I have on the line. Things I hold in trust for others, I would not.
If you truly trust him, then there's no line to put things on.



LaTigresse -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:10:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And as a mother, a mother of two children I cannot say for an absolute fact I would trust with valuable family pieces(as painful as that is to acknowledge)...I would understand a prospective partner of mine taking that into consideration via a pre-nup. She may trust me without question, but my kids.......her assets should not be in question when it comes to their less that perfect decisions.

It really is a lot more complex than some people would like to pretend it is.

It really is. I mean, Ideally I don't ever want to ask a woman to sign a prenup, but the reality is first of all, I have a loyalty to my family. Not just its present members, but the future as well. Funny thing is, it isn't even about not trusting her, it's about keeping my commitment to my father and respect for his and prior generation's hard work. Full stop. And I wouldn't stay with a woman who expected me to disregard that commitment.


And I couldn't be IN a loving trusting relationship with a woman that would disregard that commitment.

To ME, it is about personal integrity. It is about things much bigger than ourselves. Things more important than selfish emotions and being butt hurt about perceptions of trust.



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:10:39 AM)

FR

Interesting thing, I started out as adamantly anti-prenup but as this thread has progressed I've come to see that there are good reasons for having one. Personally I wouldn't be the least bit insulted if the man I loved were to want one to protect family stuff, after all they built it up long before I got there and it/they should be protected, it just makes good sense. Romantic views are all well and good but well shit happens and it makes no sense to risk what the family built up.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:11:20 AM)

quote:

And I wouldn't stay with a woman who expected me to disregard that commitment.
So, you promised your father and grandfather that you would get a pre-nup?



CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:11:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

But it's not about trust or not trusting. It's about not putting assets on the line that I didn't earn.
But it is all about trust and trusting, if you see it as putting those assets on the line, then you don't trust her not to try get them.

It is not about whether or not I trust her in any way, shape, or form.

I may trust her and believe with all my heart that she will never try and get the assets, that our marriage will last forever and ever, amen. But it's not about me. It's about an entire family who shares a heritage - it's about protecting assets that do not belong to me. I didn't earn them. My father will obviously not have the same trust in her as I do; he deserves to have his assets protected, irrespective of my feelings.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:12:12 AM)

that is interesting zephyr.
i don't know what my opinion really is. i can see where heather is coming from, and i can see where cerise is coming from. both opinions make sense from each person's own particular world view.
i don't believe either is more right than the other, though.



LaTigresse -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:13:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

And I wouldn't stay with a woman who expected me to disregard that commitment.
So, you promised your father and grandfather that you would get a pre-nup?


Heather you really are coming across as very small minded and pig headed about this.

What part of honour and responsibility, greater than two people, are you really not understanding here?



CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:14:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And as a mother, a mother of two children I cannot say for an absolute fact I would trust with valuable family pieces(as painful as that is to acknowledge)...I would understand a prospective partner of mine taking that into consideration via a pre-nup. She may trust me without question, but my kids.......her assets should not be in question when it comes to their less that perfect decisions.

It really is a lot more complex than some people would like to pretend it is.

It really is. I mean, Ideally I don't ever want to ask a woman to sign a prenup, but the reality is first of all, I have a loyalty to my family. Not just its present members, but the future as well. Funny thing is, it isn't even about not trusting her, it's about keeping my commitment to my father and respect for his and prior generation's hard work. Full stop. And I wouldn't stay with a woman who expected me to disregard that commitment.


And I couldn't be IN a loving trusting relationship with a woman that would disregard that commitment.

To ME, it is about personal integrity. It is about things much bigger than ourselves. Things more important than selfish emotions and being butt hurt about perceptions of trust.

Exactly. Despite my romantic idealisms, it's not about me.



LaTigresse -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:17:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

that is interesting zephyr.
i don't know what my opinion really is. i can see where heather is coming from, and i can see where cerise is coming from. both opinions make sense from each person's own particular world view.
i don't believe either is more right than the other, though.



I understand both also. Perhaps it is my advanced age, my greater experience with the world. My understanding of people and how things really do work in our world.

As I said before. I've never had, nor signed a prenup. However, given the need, I would not be insulted to have been asked, nor given the need, would I refrained from asking.

A prenup is no more anti trust than a will or living will. It has simply gotten a bad rap and a misconception of "I don't love you enough or trust you enough....yada yada."



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:17:28 AM)

quote:

it's about protecting assets that do not belong to me.
If they don't belong to you, then how are the assets even involved. If they belong to somebody else then she can't touch them anyway.

Look, I have no problem with anybody wanting to protect assets, I just wouldn't marry somebody who didn't trust me with those assets. If they don't trust me with them, then they shouldn't be marrying me, I'm not the person they should be marrying. It's that simple.



LaTigresse -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:19:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

it's about protecting assets that do not belong to me.
If they don't belong to you, then how are the assets even involved. If they belong to somebody else then she can't touch them anyway.

Look, I have no problem with anybody wanting to protect assets, I just wouldn't marry somebody who didn't trust me with those assets. If they don't trust me with them, then they shouldn't be marrying me, I'm not the person they should be marrying. It's that simple.



And one would hope they have the personal strength and fortitude to not be swayed and capitulate.



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:21:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

If you care more about the assets than her, then you are right, you are not meant to be.


That is beautiful in theory.  If everything lasted forever, I would agree with you 100%.

When I was your age, I thought that to be fact too.

You are such a smart young lady.  I would love to have this discussion with you in 20 years.  I suspect your views will have changed.

Now I will sit and wait for Arpig to come and call me a moron for playing the age card.

[:D]



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:22:09 AM)

quote:

What part of honour and responsibility, greater than two people, are you really not understanding here?
What part of honour and responsibility even enters into this? Why does my desire to marry somebody who trusts me completely somehow entail a requirement that they compromise anything? Please explain to me how I am asking anybody to breach any trust or promise or commitment by not marrying them unless they trust me as much as I do them?



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:24:01 AM)

quote:

Now I will sit and wait for Arpig to come and call me a moron for playing the age card.
You don't have to wait, I'll say it now. You're a moron for playing the age card.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:25:29 AM)

quote:

And one would hope they have the personal strength and fortitude to not be swayed and capitulate.
Swayed and capitulate? What would they be capitulating to?



CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:25:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

it's about protecting assets that do not belong to me.
If they don't belong to you, then how are the assets even involved. If they belong to somebody else then she can't touch them anyway.

Look, I have no problem with anybody wanting to protect assets, I just wouldn't marry somebody who didn't trust me with those assets. If they don't trust me with them, then they shouldn't be marrying me, I'm not the person they should be marrying. It's that simple.


The assets don't belong to me because I didn't earn them. I share in them because my father shares with his children, but I worked for none of it.

Fair enough you wouldn't want to marry them. It's difficult to get across though that it's nothing to do with trust. Not in the least. Whether or not I trust her with the assets is completely irrelevant.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:28:55 AM)

quote:

The assets don't belong to me because I didn't earn them. I share in them because my father shares with his children, but I worked for none of it.
Earning them or not has no relevance to who they belong to. Suze didn't earn the money she inherited, but it belongs to her all the same.
quote:

It's difficult to get across though that it's nothing to do with trust. Not in the least. Whether or not I trust her with the assets is completely irrelevant.
It is entirely 100% about you not trusting her. If you trusted her, you wouldn't feel the need to protect things from her. You would want a pre-nup because you don't trust her to not try get the assets you want to protect.



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:30:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Now I will sit and wait for Arpig to come and call me a moron for playing the age card.
You don't have to wait, I'll say it now. You're a moron for playing the age card.


How adorable.  You are really too smart to absolutely think that anyone who does not see things the same way you do has no valid point.

Thing is, in 20 years. should you not be too senile to remember conversations like this one, you will realize that, some times, the folks older do have more life experiences in some things, that do make a difference and mean something. 

Or, you may still be the close minded, know it all ,my way is the only kinda chickie.

Whichever, good luck with that.

Good thing you are young and cute. That aint gonna last forever



tj444 -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:31:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth
Still no reason to have a pre-nup the will takes care of that.

Imo, people need a variety of tools-
prenups or co-habitation agreements,
partnership agreements if owning assets jointly (even if its your spouse/partner),
wills (which need to be updated regularly and when major changes occur),
regularly updating the name(s) of beneficiaries on insurance policies, RRSPs/IRAs, etc (lots of people have one of their ex's still listed!!!),
and creating trusts as well. I think anyone with a lot of assets should utilize trusts (in the US estate taxes can be very detrimental).

People need each for various situations, imo.

But that is my opinion. It doesnt matter to me if the person i come to live with has more assets than me when we meet, I want it clear that i would not be with him for what he has and he can name whoever he wants as beneficiary of policies and his will (as is his right regardless anyway lol). I also expect the reverse to be true..



tiggerspoohbear -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 11:31:47 AM)

It doesn't even have to be a pre-nup or a will.  When my mum passed away, my sister went through the house with my dad and took a lot of stuff that I would have liked to have.  Costume jewelry that meant nothing to her, she took then gave to a friend who just threw it out.  Those pieces were very sentimental to me and I knew their history.  Same with kitchen articles that my mum had had for years.  Some I would have liked for myself.  But again, she took it all.  My dad was too distraught at the time to even consider asking me if I wanted anything.  By the time I found out it was too late and he wouldn't ask her.  He also gave Christmas pieces that I had given them to his girlfriend's family, pieces I had done myself, without asking.  Again, no thought to my wanting them or even giving me the choice.  It's all too late now.  I can never get those back and I feel like a part of my history has been take away.

You can bet that now I'm going to tell him exactly what I want and I'd like it down on paper so that I get the sentimental pieces that mean so much to me.  The watch that he was given when he retired, the pocket watch from his grandfather, and a few other pieces.  I know if I don't ask for them, my sister will be there first and they'll go to her boyfriend.  I like this guy, but he's not family.  Yes, I'm female, and I won't be able to wear them, but they mean so much to me.  I'm the daddy's girl, I'd be heartbroken not to have them.



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