RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (Full Version)

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StrangerThan -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 10:03:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The business owner is... part of us, taz. I don't get this, don't want to help out taxpayers thing. It's like saying the business owner pays no taxes, when by far the vast bulk of business owners in this country aren't GE, Microsoft, or Walmart. And by golly, they do pay taxes. Not only do they, but they did before they were ever business owners. They took part in building that road, and take part in maintaining it.


And by golly you should check the GAO report I posted.


The quote that gave no reason for companies not paying taxes?

Let's see... 99.7percent of corporations are small businesses in America.

For 2008, we have 10 percent of employer firms failing.

An estimated 627,200 new employer firms began operations in 2008, and 595,600 firms closed that year. This amounts to an annual turnover of about 10 percent for entry and 10 percent for exit. Nonemployer firms have turnover rates three times as high as those of employer firms, mostly because of easier entry and exit conditions

Also

In 2008, there were 29.6 million businesses in the United States, according to Office of Advocacy estimates. Census data show that there were 6.0 million firms with employees in 2006 and 21.7 million without employees in 2007 (the latest available data). Small firms with fewer than 500 employees represent 99.9 percent of the 29.6 million businesses (including both employers and nonemployers), as the most recent data show there were about 18,000 large businesses in 2006.

Note the vast majority are non-employer firms which have a 3 x failure rate of non-employer firms. So if I look at 2008, I have roughly 10 percent of small businesses failing that hire employees, thirty percent who don't hire employees failing, and the rest falling at some margin between failure and success. Where in that margin?

Seven out of ten new employer firms last at least two years, and about half survive five years.

50 percent don't fail because they're making trillions of dollars. How about looking at the GAO report in terms of real businesses, in that half failed over the course of that time? Is that too hard?

Just admit, you're after the Walmart's and GE's of the world, but are vilifying business in general to do it, and will pursue an agenda that makes it harder for the vast majority of businesses trying to take root, to do so.

And you wonder, why business doesn't want to invest under this administration? 



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 10:17:54 AM)

Well, perhaps I took the OPs question a bit too literally. It is true what people say here about small, family businesses. Those types of business are service type or small retail, and they do struggle while paying their fair share of taxes. The type of a business that builds a factory, a high capital, high land use issue facility would definitely be corporations and extremely well capitalized ones. Companies who have more time and capital than a closely held, family company could have. It takes years of permitting to build manufacturing facilities, and they do disproportionately affect the local resources. Companies like GE. So goddamn right they should pay more taxes.



tazzygirl -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 10:33:40 AM)

And yet you did not address the 66% or the 67% who do not pay taxes.

Doesnt surprise me.



tazzygirl -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 10:34:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well, perhaps I took the OPs question a bit too literally. It is true what people say here about small, family businesses. Those types of business are service type or small retail, and they do struggle while paying their fair share of taxes. The type of a business that builds a factory, a high capital, high land use issue facility would definitely be corporations and extremely well capitalized ones. Companies who have more time and capital than a closely held, family company could have. It takes years of permitting to build manufacturing facilities, and they do disproportionately affect the local resources. Companies like GE. So goddamn right they should pay more taxes.


Thank you! Finally someone else sees what is being said.



Lucylastic -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 10:38:42 AM)

FR
It seems t me that they dont want to invest or hire under any administration.
Losing 8 million jobs in 2008/9 was them registering complaint about Obama only??
The kochs have made more and more money every year, yet they recently let more than 13,000 go....why???
to make more money for their companies? NO they arent investing it back, they are kicking out how many people to line their pockets, greed is good, fuck the workers!!!!! HOw Dare they complain!
its a shame your claims dont meet reality



StrangerThan -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 10:52:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And yet you did not address the 66% or the 67% who do not pay taxes.

Doesnt surprise me.


Well, if 50 percent fail, I can assume that accounts for a good chunk of 66 percent. Unless of course, the GAO only took into account those businesses that spanned the entire reporting period.





SternSkipper -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 11:35:13 AM)

quote:

I don't get the vilification. It's like 'You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate'? Really? Well, who's going to hire them if the business owner doesn't?


Part of the reason for your not 'getting' this 'vilification' you're alluding to might be that you or whomever does your stats for you, is conveniently switching out the actual parties that a)the opposition actually objects to when it comes to this debate. And b)the misleading impression given by the GOP and the tea party that ALL small businessmen or even a clear majority are in their court.
   Fact is, there is a rather large percentage of democrat and liberal leaning independents that don't but the GOP 'story' or their line of BS.Many of us who either run small multi-employee businesses or work self-employed feel differently.
    The GOP hasn't been listening to the small businessman since before Reagan in my opinion.

And I can swipe the same list and insert my opinion just as easily:


From the small business administration:
Small firms:
•    Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
•    Employ half of all private sector employees.
•    Pay 44 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
•    Generated 65 percent of net new jobs over the past 17 years.
•    Create more than half of the nonfarm private GDP.
•    Hire 43 percent of high tech workers ( scientists, engineers, computer programmers, and others).
•    Are 52 percent home-based and 2 percent franchises.
•    Made up 97.5 percent of all identified exporters and produced 31 percent of export value in FY 2008.
•    Produce 13 times more patents per employee than large patenting firms.

      Americans by and large don't revile or vilify the small businessman. It's the the Large scale multi-national corporations that engage in practices such the long, slow offshoring of America's wealth. Anti-labor practices that run rampant during periods of GOP control. Based on the statistics above, I  say we find a way to give small business a better footing to compete with big business a need clearly reflected in the disparity regarding exports, tech staffing, etc.
   There are those of us who feel the focus shouldn't be on corporate welfare, but rather efforts to make it fair for the small businessman to compete with the Business ENTITY. Like making large corporations pay their fair share of taxes so small businessmen don't have to do that for them. The above bullet list supports just about any school of thought.

"Lizzy" as you put it (feigning familiarity with her) is actually very much pro small business and is currently enjoying a decent infusion of cash into her campaign. Why? Cause we all know from his behavior since taking office, is ignoring his constituents, and voting as dictated by parties who are not Massachusetts residents which appear to favor no one but a party agenda of gridlock.  And call us all crazy but we're told early on in our political lives here that both legislative houses are REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT. The rest of the country will just have to forgive us for taking our seat back and giving it to someone who will respond to our political wants and needs.

   Hey, look on the bright side, Scotty's one of those guys who'll ditch a state in a heartbeat for a job, maybe somebody out the re can get him to move to their state and vote him in. Just don't expect more than an 'autoreply' from the guy once he's in.





tazzygirl -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 11:43:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And yet you did not address the 66% or the 67% who do not pay taxes.

Doesnt surprise me.


Well, if 50 percent fail, I can assume that accounts for a good chunk of 66 percent. Unless of course, the GAO only took into account those businesses that spanned the entire reporting period.





I suggest you go back and find that post. Oh hell, never mind... Ill provide it for you.

The GAO study did not investigate why corporations weren’t paying federal income taxes or corporate taxes and it did not identify any corporations by name. It said companies may escape paying such taxes due to operating losses or because of tax credits.

Unless you can identify which tax system those small businesses use, your argument is very short.

http://www.worldlawdirect.com/article/951/structuring-your-small-business-pay-fewer-taxes.html



SternSkipper -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 11:52:11 AM)

quote:

The type of a business that builds a factory, a high capital, high land use issue facility would definitely be corporations and extremely well capitalized ones.


Bingo, it's GOP doublespeak attempting to scare the electorate of massachusetts BEFORE they actually have a chance to get a look at her platform or actually have her as a candidate. Typical GOP/Typical Brown. Last time around Brown campaigned in a victim's role when the opposition was BARELY even running ads.
    Sensible people know the practice as lying. And it's far from hatespeak to call liars what they are. And Brown is the biggest one of em. A guy who promises representative government who heads straight for the Koch Bros. teat.

http://youtu.be/gI-50t0oWxw

"Running Scared" with Scott Brown...

http://youtu.be/RKV4fLlNY0I



HardHum -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:09:53 PM)

I know, he didn't even mention how those assholes produced and delivered the things we want and need. Those lousy bastards paid workers to perform these acts of aggression also. How much more can we be expected to tolerate? I'm eternally grateful for the benevolent and vigilant government we have in Washington providing us with the important things in life. Without them, noble pillars of the community like Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan might not have been showered with trillions of our dollars so they may continue "doing God's work" How would Washington continue to enage in the aggressive, horrible and pointless wars that protect our precious freedom to be arrested for dancing at the Jefferson Memorial?
Who would force us to wear seatbelts? Who would tell us what we can and cannot smoke? Who would indoctrinate our children with government sponsored propaganda? Who would grope our genitals in public so that we may fly in safety? Who would allow private, secret bankers to debase our currency thus protecting us from the business cycle and unemployment? Who would prop up failing, uncompetitive industry?
I don't know what others may say, but as for me, give me security and beat me to death.




Lucylastic -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:13:11 PM)

You think private corporations and business have YOUR best interests at heart??
LMAO look at how much they are doing so much better
let them run your cuntry in the ground.OOPS I forget they did that and thats why there is 8 million extra unemployed.
Koch brothers are so much better running your lives.



StrangerThan -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:15:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And yet you did not address the 66% or the 67% who do not pay taxes.

Doesnt surprise me.


Well, if 50 percent fail, I can assume that accounts for a good chunk of 66 percent. Unless of course, the GAO only took into account those businesses that spanned the entire reporting period.





I suggest you go back and find that post. Oh hell, never mind... Ill provide it for you.

The GAO study did not investigate why corporations weren’t paying federal income taxes or corporate taxes and it did not identify any corporations by name. It said companies may escape paying such taxes due to operating losses or because of tax credits.

Unless you can identify which tax system those small businesses use, your argument is very short.

http://www.worldlawdirect.com/article/951/structuring-your-small-business-pay-fewer-taxes.html


Exactly. The GAO did no accounting as to why, no accounting to how many failed, no accounting to how many even had operating losses. Just who paid and who didn't, when it is demonstrable that a large percentage do fail. It is the kind of shoddy work that leaves the door open to arguments just like this, where one screams we're being taken advantage of by business, and the other can look around and say, who? Me?

The point is taz, I don't mind going after companies that rake in tons of money and use gimmicks to avoid taxes. That's not what this is really about though, nor what will come from it. It will again, be some blanket legislation that makes doing business harder. Someone up above wrote that sadly, cities use tax breaks and the like to lure business.

Shit, you wonder why? We cut our friggin throat when it came to manufacturing with virtually nothing to replace it. You want to go after CitiCorp, GE, Warren Buffet, have at it. I got no skin in the games they play. But when you start posting numbers that have no real research behind them, you're grouping every mom and pop operation in America in the same boat as companies with revenues in the billions, when half of them fail to make it two years down the line.




tazzygirl -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:18:49 PM)

And you have no accouting as to how many of those small business are S Corporations, LLC, Partnerships, Sole Proprietors, ect. I do believe the woman said Corporations.

Do get back to me when you have those numbers. Until then, small businesses are just that.



StrangerThan -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:33:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And you have no accouting as to how many of those small business are S Corporations, LLC, Partnerships, Sole Proprietors, ect. I do believe the woman said Corporations.

Do get back to me when you have those numbers. Until then, small businesses are just that.




There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there — good for you!

But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that maurauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea — God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.

But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

That's your quote. Find corporation for me. Corporation didn't enter the game really until you posted your GAO report, which in the quote you used, used corporation and company interchangeably.

Why don't you get back to me when you have some semblance of being able to keep your argument straight, and have sources that actually represent the quote you started with.



tazzygirl -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:35:13 PM)

Built a factory. Dont know too many small businesses who can afford that.



tazzygirl -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:39:32 PM)

not only that.. but the big, huge assumption here is that this factory/business actually survives and makes any money.. which considering the stats, is not the fate for the majority of new businesses (especially under 5 years)... which means the $$ invested and put at risk is borne by the owner of the business/factory/corporation.. The owner doesnt get to collect unemployment insurance either, he had better have an emergency fund if he doesnt want to end up homeless on that nicely paved street..

Someone from your side brought up corporations before I did. [;)]



StrangerThan -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:42:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

not only that.. but the big, huge assumption here is that this factory/business actually survives and makes any money.. which considering the stats, is not the fate for the majority of new businesses (especially under 5 years)... which means the $$ invested and put at risk is borne by the owner of the business/factory/corporation.. The owner doesnt get to collect unemployment insurance either, he had better have an emergency fund if he doesnt want to end up homeless on that nicely paved street..

Someone from your side brought up corporations before I did. [;)]


Ok, lol. My side? That would the side that doesn't see Fred the mechanic as the evil bitch slayer of the American dream and oppressor of Stulevaliet, child of Mark and Amy who think Fred is a billionaire and should build Stully a new school?





HardHum -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 12:50:56 PM)

They don't have to have my best interests at heart. They merely have to buy muscle in Washington and force me to patronize them. However, if Washington guns weren't legislating and regulating per the orders of these so-called businessmen, if they weren't subsidized and loop holed with benefits from Washington, then their only hope of making a buck would be to cater to the demands of consumers.
I agree with you though, the status quo in Washington is what permits these charlatan goons to thrive.
Showering Washington with tax dollars and power will never protect you. It is the source of the problem.



SternSkipper -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 1:08:14 PM)


sigh



Lucylastic -> RE: Elizabeth Warren quote (9/24/2011 1:12:29 PM)

deeper sigh



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