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Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 12:46:30 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
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Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-leader-rejects-intl-peace-blueprint-153300108.html

Ok, Wilbur and Sam, you guys are this week's winners.


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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 12:53:21 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Please explain to me why it would have been in his interest to say yes....without an agreement to halt building settlements?
Please explain to me why he,remember from his point of view ,should enter into more negotiations without an agreement in hand which says that the '67 borders is the basic starting point for the negotiations?
Really no surprise here....most ballplayers having reached free age cy actually explore free agency,rather than just signing with their old team

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:14:40 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		If he thinks he'll get a better deal after forcing the US to veto the SC resolution to admit the Palestinaians to the UN he is dumber than I thought.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:36:19 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Well.. Just throwing this out there, but he COULD say that he tried to negotiate in good faith for the establishment of modified borders starting from the 67 map, so he has no other option than to just declare the new state's borders AT the 67 lines, and then unveil his new country's flag.

THEN The State of Israel will be forced to declare war on The State of Palestine.

Now we have an international war. And all the settlements are in enemy territory.

At least the stalemate is broken.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/24/2011 1:37:01 PM >

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:38:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well.. Just throwing this out there, but he COULD say that he tried to negotiate in good faith for the establishment of modified borders starting from the 67 map, so he has no other option than to just declare the new state's borders AT the 67 lines, and then unveil his new country's flag.

THEN The State of Israel will be forced to declare war on The State of Palestine.

Now we have an international war. And all the settlements are in enemy territory.

At least the stalemate is broken.


Except "declaring it" doesnt make it a State. They would have to declare war on Israel and win it. Not a chance in hell. They would rather strap bombs on teens and old women.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 9/24/2011 1:39:15 PM >

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:40:10 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Now we have an international war... At least the stalemate is broken.

Now that's what I call optimism.

K.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:40:33 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Israel hasn't annexed the territory in question. THE PEOPLE there can certainly form any government which best suits their interest.

You might want to consider The United States Declaration of Independence for some background and potential precedent.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:41:49 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Now we have an international war... At least the stalemate is broken.

Now that's what I call optimism.

K.



Hey, I'm a "One Stater". I'd PREFER it if The Israeli Government just annexed the territory, but people freak the fuck out when you propose it.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:51:53 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Israel hasn't annexed the territory in question. THE PEOPLE there can certainly form any government which best suits their interest.

You might want to consider The United States Declaration of Independence for some background and potential precedent.


Annexation has nothing to do with it. As I said, declaring it doesnt make it so. I declare myself owner of all of the coastal land in Southern California. Want to buy a house?

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 1:57:11 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Well, do you have (a) public support (b) a flag and (c) an army to wearing that flag? How about (d) Civil Law enforcement (e) Criminal Law enforcement and (f) courts?

You get enough people to go along that you're Emperor, and I'll buy real-estate in your country...

They live there... It's THEIR LAND. Since going the UN route hasn't resolved this border dispute, maybe it's time to go back to the tried-and-true methods.

If the UN wants to then intervene in this international war, it's a lot less ambiguous that "The State of Israel vs. Various Non-State Entities" it's "The State of Israel" vs. "The State of Palestine".

We KNOW how to handle those kinds of wars, don't we?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 9/24/2011 1:58:39 PM >

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 2:11:24 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

We KNOW how to handle those kinds of wars, don't we?

What's this fucking "we" shit?

First of all, it wouldn't be the State of Israel versus the State of Palestine. It would most likely, and quickly, become the State of Israel versus the States (plural) of Palestine, Iran, Egypt, and Turkey. And the Christian Right "End of Days" crowd here in the US will be all over it to get us involved in a big way, because to them it will mean Armageddon (hallelujah, at last!) and the return of Christ (Praise Jesus!).

No thanks, fuckwit. I'd much rather y'all just go on killing each other until you're finally fed up with yourselves.

K.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 2:12:22 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"We" being "The UN".

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 3:40:50 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Drat- something I'd have rather not won....

Mike- the '67 borders are unworkable- everyone knows this because Israel was basically bifurcated. Therefore if Palestine is going to become a country, there needs to be a free hand in coming up with some new borders for both Israel and Palestine.

Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership is running true to form- never failing to shoot itself in both feet...Arafat did the same thing. A deal would look imminent and then some impossible condition would be laid down prior to continuing talks.

Looks like Abbas is going down the same road as Arafat- his popularity has gotten bolstered- but there's nothing substantive here.

Like I said- I wish I wouldn't have won this bet....

Sam

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 3:48:41 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

- never failing to shoot itself in both feet...Arafat did the same thing.


Its no accident.

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 5:17:17 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership is running true to form- never failing to shoot itself in both feet...Arafat did the same thing. A deal would look imminent and then some impossible condition would be laid down prior to continuing talks.

To understand Arafat and Abbas you need to get hold of reliable translations of what they say to their own press. They frequently reference things in the Qu'ran that some take to mean that lying to and cheating non muslims is ok. One frequently referenced story is of Muhammad negotiating with the Quraysh.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 6:57:12 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Drat- something I'd have rather not won....

Mike- the '67 borders are unworkable- everyone knows this because Israel was basically bifurcated. Therefore if Palestine is going to become a country, there needs to be a free hand in coming up with some new borders for both Israel and Palestine.

Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership is running true to form- never failing to shoot itself in both feet...Arafat did the same thing. A deal would look imminent and then some impossible condition would be laid down prior to continuing talks.

Looks like Abbas is going down the same road as Arafat- his popularity has gotten bolstered- but there's nothing substantive here.

Like I said- I wish I wouldn't have won this bet....

Sam


Now I understand Israel might have exceeded it's agreed borders due to the influx of immigrants, but if a country is full, i.e, if there is no place for people to live, why not just say stop and stop immigration ?

Or is it, because of some religious heresay everyone who is of a certain faith has the right to live in a certain country, all of them at the same time ? If that is the mentality, Palestine might comfort itself in the fact that they as Arabs are not a particular target as such, but it is the fact that they stand in the way of what might become a one religion state, encompassing far more than the lands that Palestine occupies?

That being, is that why other Islamic states fund those who oppose Israel, because they know Palestine is the battle front between an aggressive state and them?


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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 7:56:57 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"Now I understand Israel might have exceeded it's agreed borders due to the influx of immigrants, but if a country is full, i.e, if there is no place for people to live, why not just say stop and stop immigration ?"

I suggest that you do a little research on the subject. Checking wikipedia you'll find that of the 13.4 million Jews globally, 42% live in Israel, about the same percentage live in the US, with the remainder split between Canada and Europe. So where is this massive influx of immigrants supposed to come from- the US? Of course, in previous decades, there used to be thriving communities in cities like Baghdad and Damascus, but Muslims don't seem to like Jews living in their countries- so those folks did emigrate to Israel, often with some urging from their former neighbors.

And yes, the Israeli constitution is that anyone who is a Jew may claim Israeli citizenship no matter their national origin. This is just a pragmatic notion, not rooted in any genocides that of course, never happened, and has been done just to piss off the Arabs.

In case you haven't been paying attention in other threads- some of us have been advocating for a Palestinian homeland, because of the apartheid nature of Israel. Its just that the '67 borders are untenable, and there has to be some horse trading to keep Israel viable, and to set up a viable Palestinian state.

Of course, if the Palestinians are blameless, and the whole problem is just the fault of the Jews, well, then Israel should just disappear, now shouldn't it....


Sam

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 9:46:38 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Like I said- I wish I wouldn't have won this bet....

Sam


You didn't lose your bet.

There was no peace plan to be rejected.

There was a document prepared that was to be the basis for a resumption of the peace talks. Not a peace plan. Not even a framework. Not even the bare bones of a peace plan.

The document prepared by the Quartet was a suggested basis for resuming negotiations, which might at some vague point in the future produce a peace plan. To describe this as a "peace plan" is at best misleading. To claim or even imply that by rejecting this document, the Palestinians rejected a peace plan is to engage in pure fiction.

As the document didn't even mention the substantive reason why negotiations failed - Israel's illegal colonisation of the West Bank (let alone suggest a solution to that particular impasse) - it was never going to fly anyways. The document was so useless that Abbas would be in a stronger position had he resumed the negotiations without any preconditions than had he accepted this piece of paper.

As there was never any chance of this move succeeding, many observers have surmised that it had more to do with the US saving face and trying to avoid using its veto than anything in the ME.

Does anyone seriously believe that, after 18 years of delivering nothing, the peace process as currently constituted is going to deliver a result? To me it's far more likely that this week will mark the death of the not only the 'peace process' but of US influence and stewardship of the process. As Sarkozy pointed out, it's clear that the US is too partisan. And the process was going backwards under American sponsorship.

At some point in the immediate future, Israeli colonisation of the West Bank will have reached a critical mass and the Two State solution will no longer be a viable option. If indeed it hasn't already reached that point.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 9:55:50 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		It's simple, you get your own country but we can take any of the land we want at any time. Why wouldn't they go for that ?

L O L

T^T

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 10:15:29 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Yup. As Sam explained, someone with the most tenuous connection with the region - or even no connection for many centuries, if ever - can get off a plane at Ben Gurion Airport and instantly become a citizen with full rights.

While the indigenous people and landholders have zero rights and exist subject to an apartheid system under a brutal military occupation.

And some people profess surprise and outrage when the indigenous people refuse to accept their lot ...... Serfs ain't wot dey used to be hey?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/24/2011 10:16:31 PM >

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