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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 10:29:29 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yup. As Sam explained, someone with the most tenuous connection with the region - or even no connection for many centuries, if ever - can get off a plane at Ben Gurion Airport and instantly become a citizen with full rights.

While the indigenous people and landholders have zero rights and exist subject to an apartheid system under a brutal military occupation.

And some people profess surprise and outrage when the indigenous people refuse to accept their lot ...... Serfs ain't wot dey used to be hey?


Too bad you dont know who the indigenous people are. Hint: it isnt Arabic Muslims.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/24/2011 10:55:47 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Too bad you dont know who the indigenous people are. Hint: it isnt Arabic Muslims.

Uh oh...

Hijack music, please.

K.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 2:17:13 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Nice link, gonna ripit later.

BTW, anyone have any idea what that dude means by indigenous ? That word has more definitions than the population of California.

T^T

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 5:30:28 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Tweak

You've lost me here. Who said anything about a peace plan? Netanyahoo is willing to sit at a table and talk to Abbas- Abbas won't do that unless preconditions are met. The quartet of the US, the EU, Russia and the UN all are calling for talks to begin- no preconditions. Seems to me that the US has happily passed off being the prime spokesman for Israel to the UN which can now take the lead. In short, Abbas has most of the civilized world calling for him to sit down and talk with Netanyahoo- and he won't do it. This isn't to say that he couldn't have a reasonable list of demands including no further settlements- but that can and should be part of talks. Why does he get to come up with preconditions that nobody else does?

Sam

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 8:05:28 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Hi Tweak

Netanyahoo is willing to sit at a table and talk to Abbas- Abbas won't do that unless preconditions are met. The quartet of the US, the EU, Russia and the UN all are calling for talks to begin- no preconditions.


The document to which I'm referring listed a number of concessions that the Pals had to make - inc. recognising Israel as a Jewish State - as a basis for resuming negotiations. It didn't even mention the colonies - the reason the talks had broken down. That's the document Abbas rejected.


The Palestinians would be crazy to re-enter negotiations while the colonies are being built. They are illegal. How can anyone accept the good faith of a party that insists on committing crimes against you as you talk? That's a ridiculous demand to make. No sane person would ever agree to such a set up.


quote:

Seems to me that the US has happily passed off being the prime spokesman for Israel to the UN which can now take the lead.


I have no idea where you got this impression from, but I do wish it was true. The UN couldn't do a worse job than the US. Just in passing, does this mean an end to the absurd Israeli claims of alleged "bias" against it by the UN?

quote:

In short, Abbas has most of the civilized world calling for him to sit down and talk with Netanyahoo- and he won't do it. This isn't to say that he couldn't have a reasonable list of demands including no further settlements- but that can and should be part of talks. Why does he get to come up with preconditions that nobody else does?

Sam

Most of the civilised world wants Israel to stop using the Palestinians as target practice, as evidenced by the 80 odd Resolutions the civilised world has passed condemning Israeli behaviour at the UN. The only nations to oppose Palestinian membership are Israel and the US.

Why does Israel insist on building colonies on land it will have to surrender to a Palestinian State, if there ever is one? Even the US agrees the colonies are criminal. Negotiations without the settlements stopping has been described as like discussing dividing a pizza with someone who's eating the pizza as you talk about it. Pointless.

Israeli refusal to stop expanding the colonies caused the impasse. Israel had a choice - peace talks or continue stealing the West bank. Israel didn't choose the path of peace. When this is rectified, the Palestinians will have some reason to accept Israeli good faith and can reasonably be expected to resume negotiations.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/25/2011 8:20:12 AM >

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 9:22:05 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Drat- something I'd have rather not won....

Mike- the '67 borders are unworkable- everyone knows this because Israel was basically bifurcated. Therefore if Palestine is going to become a country, there needs to be a free hand in coming up with some new borders for both Israel and Palestine.



This is the cowardly Israeli Governments way of avoiding saying "We're taking all of Jerusalem", but since the government doesn't have the balls to just annex the territory, they're going to play all sorts of games to delay ANY progress.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 10:43:25 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Hi Tweak

Careful, you're on dangerous ground here. Remember that we said we could agree that both sides have bloody hands? Yes, the Palestinians can bellyache that building settlements against international law is provocative.... Israelis can point to a terrorist attack in Aug 2011 where Hamas claimed responsibility....From my perspective, neither side is walking down the path of peace. Claiming that one side or the other is really pursuing peace but the other guys just won't let them, well that probably hurts the possibility that productive peace talks can begin.

Neither side can claim a moral high ground now- and therefore preconditions on talks are not helpful, since preconditions amount to claiming moral superiority.

While the Palestinians can with some justification say that US attempts at brokering peace fail because the US is in Israel's pocket, they can no longer say that about the quartet of the UN, the US, Europe and Russia. Note however, that the quartet did not pose any preconditions on talks-it just laid out a timetable. In short- I don't see how Abbas has many excuses walking away here. Its just my cynical nature that I thought he would walk (and no, I didn't find anybody to bet with, so I'm not making any money here.)

Cheers,

Sam

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 2:07:44 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
Neither side can claim a moral high ground now- and therefore preconditions on talks are not helpful, since preconditions amount to claiming moral superiority.

While the Palestinians can with some justification say that US attempts at brokering peace fail because the US is in Israel's pocket, they can no longer say that about the quartet of the UN, the US, Europe and Russia. Note however, that the quartet did not pose any preconditions on talks-it just laid out a timetable. In short- I don't see how Abbas has many excuses walking away here. Its just my cynical nature that I thought he would walk (and no, I didn't find anybody to bet with, so I'm not making any money here.)

Thats true Sam. There is no way the Quartet is pro-Israel. Russia, Europe and the UN have been very supportive of the Palestinians. BTW Oslo II, to which the PLO signed, said the settlements were to be part of the final status arrangements. They constitute just 2% of the West Bank and no new settlements have been officially recognised for a long time.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 5:05:31 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Neither side can claim a moral high ground now- and therefore preconditions on talks are not helpful, since preconditions amount to claiming moral superiority.


It is a reasonable expectation that if one enters into a negotiation with another party, that other party does so in good faith.

How can Palestinians accept good faith where Israel is continually dispossessing them, stealing their land, using it to expand colonies that Israel argues are "facts on the ground" that it doesn't have to return to the Palestinians.

The Palestinians have been saying this since colonisation started and the numbers of colonists was tiny. There is now over half a million colonists. Their stated goal is explicitly preventing a Palestinian State ever.

Every brick built into the colonies is a further obstacle to peace. Every brick is a crime. Why should any one accept good faith when Israel insists on placing further obstacles between the current situation and peace? Expanding the colonies is self-evident incontrovertible evidence of BAD FAITH.

The colonies are there with the explicit purpose of preventing a Palestinian State. The fear is that we have already reached the point where they have succeeded in that goal. I don't see them being completely dismantled without risking an Israeli civil war.

IF you're contesting this analysis, then you need to explain why Israel insists on expanding settlements it knows it will have to surrender in any peace deal. Why does Israel choose to stop peace talks rather than stop the colonies? Doesn't that tell you that the colonies are more important to Israel than peace? What else could it possibly mean? Why does Israel waste the money, the time, the energy if the colonies are not for keeps? To look at the colonies any other way simply doesn't make sense.

Palestinians have been saying this consistently for over 20 years. What's the point of talking if no one is listening?



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/25/2011 5:13:44 PM >

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 6:07:30 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The point is, whilst there are settlements in Palestinian territory, if ever it came to peace talks, is will be what the Israelis want at the expense of the Palestinians, the furthest settlement will be the new border, else why extend one's border so far into another's lands ?

As to what Defines Israel, well the virgin UN created that, so why not the UN finishing the job it started, seeing as the two concerned can't sort it out ?

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 6:10:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The point is, whilst there are settlements in Palestinian territory, if ever it came to peace talks, is will be what the Israelis want at the expense of the Palestinians, the furthest settlement will be the new border, else why extend one's border so far into another's lands ?

As to what Defines Israel, well the virgin UN created that, so why not the UN finishing the job it started, seeing as the two concerned can't sort it out ?


No. The UN did not create Israel's original borders.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 6:13:24 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Who created the UN then ?



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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 6:21:43 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Who created the UN then ?




the League of Nations in the Palestinian Mandate of 1922.

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Hear the lark
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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 6:50:42 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		You were gone awhile, and here was I waiting with baited breath ?

And whom did the league of nations become ?

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 9/25/2011 6:51:37 PM >

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 7:08:11 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Tweak

You're still focusing on the big bad Israelis. Hashing out rights/wrongs of both sides has been done to death- with no real progress. I've never understood how lobbing rockets at civilians is supposed to bring people to the bargaining table thinking that you're a reasonable person to begin with- seems to me that you're now negotiating with murderers. Your bellyache about the settlements- different sides of the same coin.

I'd also suggest not to get too hung up on the settlements- this region has a history of red herrings and false starts. As an academic point-wasn't there some slow down in settlement construction a couple of years ago that Hamas ended with a couple of rocket attacks? Furthermore, at the start of the Oslo accords, weren't there something like 100,000 settlers about 20 years ago? These types of demands have a history of surfacing, some grudging accommodation is made- and then the killing resumes and the "process" begins anew. Seems like a cycle to me- an endless cycle.

I'm getting more convinced that the only way to make headway in the region is for the moderates to support neither side. A "peace process" measured in decades is a sick joke, not a solution. One could view that assembling the quartet to listen to you is making real progress- but then you have to follow the rules that the quartet lays down.

FYI- I'd have no problem writing to my congressman suggesting that aid to Israel be reduced if the Israelis walk away from a bona fide attempt at peace brokered by the quartet. What's the penalty for the Palestinians? OK, we can cut their aid too, but I think the oil producing countries can easily make it up.

Sam

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 7:15:22 PM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		H'mmm seems to me why countries draw their sides, old ties and money on one side and old ties and oil on the other, we need the money and we need the oil, so we are stuck with the two factions whether we like it or not.

Someone for the sake of the world and all it's blameless inhabitants, please come up with some viable energy source that does not require us to pander to ancient enemies to thrive, let alone survive.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 7:18:42 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

You were gone awhile, and here was I waiting with baited breath ?

And whom did the league of nations become ?


Very different organizations with very different purposes and charters, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt thats what you had in mind.

I would not give the same credit to most others here, because they desperately want the 1947 UN Resolution to have created Israel because the borders were so much smaller than under the Mandate, and dont want to admit how severely Israel was diminished in 1947. I would have loved to hear Netanyahu respond to Blowbama's 1967 borders comment with "Lets start negotiating at the 1922 borders".

The anti-Zionists also want to ignore the very clear reasons for its creation spelled out so clearly in the Mandate, including:

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country and

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and cooperating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist Organization, so long as its organization and constitution are, in the opinion of the Mandatory, appropriate, shall be recognized as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

_____________________________

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 7:55:15 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Cool the zionists got what they wanted, so now are we going to sort put all the other dissposessed claimants elsewhere in the world, or is it charity does not extend that far ?

There is a precedent, so why not sort out the worlds wrongs including the Native American's claims, or is it they don't count?

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 7:58:33 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Cool the zionists got what they wanted, so now are we going to sort put all the other dissposessed claimants elsewhere in the world, or is it charity does not extend that far ?

There is a precedent, so why not sort out the worlds wrongs including the Native American's claims, or is it they don't count?


We have different definitions of charity apparently.

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RE: Abbas just says... No - 9/25/2011 8:06:55 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The anti-Zionists also want to ignore the very clear reasons for its creation spelled out so clearly in the Mandate, including:

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country and

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and cooperating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist Organization, so long as its organization and constitution are, in the opinion of the Mandatory, appropriate, shall be recognized as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

Article Six of the Mandate states close Jewish settlement is legitimate, particularly on public and waste land, and since Article 80 of the UN Charter prevents the UN from altering the decisions of the League of Nations, the settlements seem legitimate under international law, and it casts doubt on the right of the UN to allocate any land to a Palestinian state.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 9/25/2011 8:09:51 PM >

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