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Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:08:46 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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Status: offline 		One of the biggest (if not the biggest) aspects of a successful civil society and nation is the legitimacy of the government to govern.

Lack of legitimacy generally indicates a government in trouble and subject to increasing levels of attack (either political or physical) and unrest by the population.  In the end, this often leads to either growing repression or a major loss of power of the government (overthrow is not uncommon).

One of the foundational differences for the US Government was the basis for that legitimacy.  That it should be primarily based on the will of the "People", and not due to the "divine right of kings", the "law of the jungle - might makes right", or due to the birth, wealth and education of an oligarchic group.

Over the last few decades, this "will of the People" legitimacy in the US seems to be dissolving, however. 

Two recent polls suggest how bad this is getting.  One of the polls is a Rasmussen poll.  The second is a Gallup poll.

Extract from the Rasmussen poll:

Fewer voters than ever feel the federal government has the consent of the governed.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 17% of Likely U.S. Voters think the federal government today has the consent of the governed.  Sixty-nine percent (69%) believe the government does not have that consent. Fourteen percent (14%) are undecided.

The number of voters who feel the government has the consent of the governed - a foundational principle, contained in the Declaration of Independence - is down from 23% in early May and has fallen to its lowest level measured yet.

Extract from the Gallup poll:

    * 82% of Americans disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job.

   * 69% say they have little or no confidence in the legislative branch of government, an all-time high and up from 63% in 2010.

   * 57% have little or no confidence in the federal government to solve domestic problems, exceeding the previous high of 53% recorded in 2010 and well exceeding the 43% who have little or no confidence in the government to solve international problems.

   * 53% have little or no confidence in the men and women who seek or hold elected office.

   * Americans believe, on average, that the federal government wastes 51 cents of every tax dollar, similar to a year ago, but up significantly from 46 cents a decade ago and from an average 43 cents three decades ago.

   * 49% of Americans believe the federal government has become so large and powerful that it poses an immediate threat to the rights and freedoms of ordinary citizens. In 2003, less than a third (30%) believed this

You can read the individual polls at the links, and even find the questions for each survey.

Why do we have this growing lack of legitimacy in the US?  Is it situational, where the more left of center people were disappointed with 8 years of Bush-Republican governance, and the right of center are disappointed with the three years of Obama-Democratic governance?  In other words, strictly situational?

Or is it something deeper, structural with the current US government?

Firm



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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:14:14 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Let me ask you, Firm.... is there any significant differences between the Bush administration and the Obama administration in those numbers? Meaning... did they change significantly with the changing of the guard?

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:31:52 AM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Why do we have this growing lack of legitimacy in the US?  Is it situational, where the more left of center people were disappointed with 8 years of Bush-Republican governance, and the right of center are disappointed with the three years of Obama-Democratic governance?  In other words, strictly situational?

Or is it something deeper, structural with the current US government?




Its the impact of money and lobbying on the legislative process.  Money that the majority of those represented in the country do not have, and that a few in the elite minority have excessive amounts of. 

Its more of a "divine right of the king makers" problem.

40.2% of all new wealth created from 1983 to 2009 went to the top 1%, and another 41.6% went to the next richest 4% and only 18.2% of the wealth went to the bottom 95%.  That puts alot of political influence into the hands of a few regardless of who is elected.

That is why if you rob a bank with a gun, you get a needle in the arm or a stay in a privatized for-profit prison.  If you rob a bank using derivatives, you get tax cuts.




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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:35:20 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Let me ask you, Firm.... is there any significant differences between the Bush administration and the Obama administration in those numbers? Meaning... did they change significantly with the changing of the guard?

My reading is that they have continued to deteriorate.

Firm


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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:37:32 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I have no doubt they havent, Firm. Im speaking of a significant difference.

Public Officials Held in Low Esteem

Americans' confidence in the people who run for or serve in office is also at a new low; however, the decline has been more recent, dropping from 66% in 2008 to 49% in 2009 and 45% today. For most of the history of this trend, Americans had much more positive views of those seeking or holding public office, but that changed in 2009, and the balance of opinion has since remained more negative than positive.

Americans Particularly Critical of Domestic Policy

At 43%, fewer Americans today than at any time in the past four decades say they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the federal government to handle domestic problems. That is significantly lower than the 58% average level of confidence Gallup has found on this since 1972, including a 77% reading shortly after the 9/11 attacks. Gallup did not ask the question between 1976 and 1997, however, and thus may have missed low points during the recessions that occurred in the early 1980s or at the time of the House banking scandal in the early '90s.

By contrast, faith in Washington to handle international problems (57%) is currently better than the 51% all-time low recorded in 2007, during the Iraq war, and not far off from the 65% average seen since 1972.

Nearly Half Now Say Government Poses Immediate Threat

Americans' sense that the federal government poses an immediate threat to individuals' rights and freedoms is also at a new high, 49%, since Gallup began asking the question using this wording in 2003. This view is much more pronounced among Republicans (61%) and independents (57%) than among Democrats (28%), although when George W. Bush was president, Democrats and independents were more likely than Republicans to view government as a threat.'



So, what would be interesting to see is if people would change their views if the hypothetical question were asked.... how would these change if so and so were elected? Would they?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/27/2011 6:42:21 AM >

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:45:52 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
One of the biggest (if not the biggest) aspects of a successful civil society and nation is the legitimacy of the government to govern....

Why do we have this growing lack of legitimacy in the US?  Is it situational, where the more left of center people were disappointed with 8 years of Bush-Republican governance, and the right of center are disappointed with the three years of Obama-Democratic governance?  In other words, strictly situational?

Or is it something deeper, structural with the current US government?

I believe it is situational.

Consider how many times in just the past year or two when GOP politicians have opposed legislation initiated by the Democrats that are practically word-for-word identical to legislation they supported when proposed by the GOP during the Cheney/Bush administration.

Example from yesterday's news (9-26-11):

GOP shifts away from payroll tax cut

quote:

As applause broke out in the House chamber, Scott P. Brown rose to his feet to join an ovation for President Obama. But the enthusiasm came from just half the chamber - the Democratic side - and the lanky GOP senator from Massachusetts was a lonely figure standing in a sea of seated, stony-faced Republicans.

The one-sided ovation during Obama’s Sept. 8 speech pitching his $447 billion jobs plan came after the president proposed extending last year’s payroll tax cut, an idea that had once garnered bipartisan support but this year has received a tepid reception from many Republicans...

Some observers attribute such a change of heart not to questions of its economic efficacy but to politics.

“What has changed about the idea? Nothing, really,’’ said Richard K. Kaplan, a tax law professor at the University of Illinois. What has changed, he said, is a Congress that is more polarized and vituperative, with an upcoming election prompting Republicans to oppose any proposal that might boost Obama.

“It’s not much more sophisticated than ‘I’m against it, because he’s for it,’ ’’ Kaplan said.


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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:47:02 AM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting times...

Shipping powders back and forth
Singing black goes south and white comes north.
In a whole world full of petty wars
Singing I got mine and you got yours.
And the current fashion sets the pace,
Lose your step, fall out of grace.
And the radical, he rant and rage,
Singing someone's got to turn the page.
And the rich man in his summer home,
Singing just leave well enough alone.
But his pants are down, his cover's blown...
And the politicians throwin' stones,
So the kids they dance
And shake their bones,
And it's all too clear we're on our own.
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.


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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:48:14 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Let me ask you, Firm.... is there any significant differences between the Bush administration and the Obama administration in those numbers? Meaning... did they change significantly with the changing of the guard?


Excellent question.

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:50:58 AM   
SternSkipper


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Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

I believe it is situational.

Consider how many times in just the past year or two when GOP politicians have opposed legislation initiated by the Democrats that are practically word-for-word identical to legislation they supported when proposed by the GOP during the Cheney/Bush administration.

Example from yesterday's news (9-26-11):

GOP shifts away from payroll tax cut


Perhaps situational going on 40 or 50 years maybe... Situational because it gets worse as the days roll on... Situational because the American people realize they're i n a real fucking bad SITUATION free and clear of their economic worries.
I'll agree it's THAT kind of situational



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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:52:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Let me ask you, Firm.... is there any significant differences between the Bush administration and the Obama administration in those numbers? Meaning... did they change significantly with the changing of the guard?


Excellent question.


Just seems to me, by the graphs on Gallup, that all but one took a nose dive after the election.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 7:02:00 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have no doubt they havent, Firm. Im speaking of a significant difference.

A "significant" difference is not definable, except personally, or if you are talking about outside of the margin of error.

In other words, other than statistical math, the question is subjective, I think.

Firm


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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 7:38:13 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I dont believe they gathered enough responses to make any significant calls on all this.

1000 respondents.

I always did have problems with such pollings. 1000 out of.. I think the voting population is around 230 million?

Situational? yes. People are angry and tired of waiting for the answers to their problems.. and all they see is the petty sniping from both sides.

I also believe its political... Dems blaming Repubs, Repubs blaming Dems

Majorities of Democrats (65%) and Republicans (92%) are dissatisfied with the nation's governance. This perhaps reflects the shared political power arrangement in the nation's capital, with Democrats controlling the White House and U.S. Senate, and Republicans controlling the House of Representatives. Partisans on both sides can thus find fault with government without necessarily blaming their own party.

Republicans blame the WH and Senate, Dems blame the House.. and the Independents blame everyone

Americans' sense that the federal government poses an immediate threat to individuals' rights and freedoms is also at a new high, 49%, since Gallup began asking the question using this wording in 2003. This view is much more pronounced among Republicans (61%) and independents (57%) than among Democrats (28%), although when George W. Bush was president, Democrats and independents were more likely than Republicans to view government as a threat.


In the Gallop poll that is the only time Independents were even mentioned.

As far as Rasmussen, since they started charging, I cant be bothered to even look at their numbers. Hell, sometimes you cant even SEE their numbers unless you pay.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 7:49:33 AM   
EternalHoH


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Kinda interesting that this chart




sorta corresponds to this chart.





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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 7:58:15 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol.. yeah it does.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:02:28 AM   
EternalHoH


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Status: offline 		No wonder we loved 'bubble boy' running the Fed.

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:06:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		It makes sense though. When the economy is good, people dont truly care why its good. They are making money.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:11:14 AM   
tj444


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Status: offline 		I personally dont think those two charts correspond at all.

But,.. imo, the dissatisfaction in the first chart corresponds to 911 when the rights of not only Americans but the entire world was taken away by the US govt. That is when the US govt went ape shit and the realization that they want a file on and control of every human on the planet became apparent. They want to control the world and dictate how other countries should govern themselves, they invade when it suits them, they are corrupt and mad with the power they hold. Since 911, they have just been much less secretive about it all (& that shows up by dissatisfaction increasing dramatically)..

Its too bad, cuz they are driving this country into the ground, in 10 or 20 years, they will have lost their powerful grip on the world and their #1 position.. Imo, who is the President (bush, Obama) doesnt matter, that they are puppets does...

So much more to say about it but I would guess some will take offense and I am not going to debate on this, you are entitled to your opinions as i am to mine....

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:27:30 AM   
StrangerThan


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Status: offline 		Interesting. Note, Obama talked about Ghaddafi needing to step down because he had lost his legitimacy to govern.




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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:31:36 AM   
lobodomslavery


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Status: offline 		of the people , by the people , for the people is a load of tosh, its empty rhetoric, if that was the case , people would be consulted on a range of issues that affect PEOPLE, like should politicians salaries be as high as they are, do we need both president and prime minister in the case of ireland in a time when we can least afford it, and should the social welfare benefit be increased for those on the margins rather than decreased, but NO we dont we get questions put to us by POLITICIANS that suit THEM, suit the elite, and to hell with the rest of us, like who do we want as next president of ireland etc, i couldnt give a monkey s at this stage, personally i do NOT think we should have a president because we CANNOT afford it. NO its not of the people by the people for the people it is of the POLITICAL ELITE by the tax payers money, ie all of us for the POLITICAL ELITE and im sure its similar in America and the UK
kevin

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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:32:24 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Or is it something deeper, structural with the current US government?

Firm




I think that it is the army of bureaucracy that exists.  It is not elected officials creating laws and regulations it is agencies.  The legislative process has been usurped by these agencies and so it is not the 'will of the people' but the 'will of the civil servants.'


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