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RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 10:41:43 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

This is pretty much what turned me off religion in my teens, after being a churchgoer since early childhood.

However - the bible is the problem. It was written by people with their own personal influences and prejudices and I just can't see how that can't have been added into the bible. Stuff like the nonsense about gays being the bad guys, or women being inferior. I can only see that as being influenced by the way things were then, rather than the way they should be.

I can't live by the words of the bible, but I can live by the intent of Jesus, which is to be the best possible person you can be. I think, for me, that's the best way.


The stuff I bolded is part of what turns me off to any sort of organized Christian religioun. Add to it, the translations by people with their own agendas and the massive amount of stuff that was left out..........what's left is pretty much worthless to ME. It means nothing. It's just a copy of a historical remnant of insecure power hungry men, creating a fear based outline to use in controlling the masses.

I have my own morals. In many ways, a lot stricter than any bible thumping christian. In other ways, that same bible thumping christian would scream themselves purple in the face about how I am going to hell. Bully for them, I don't believe in either heaven or hell as a place to go to, so meh.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to myotherself)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 12:05:49 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself
This is pretty much what turned me off religion in my teens, after being a churchgoer since early childhood.
However - the bible is the problem. It was written by people with their own personal influences and prejudices and I just can't see how that can't have been added into the bible. Stuff like the nonsense about gays being the bad guys, or women being inferior. I can only see that as being influenced by the way things were then, rather than the way they should be.
I can't live by the words of the bible, but I can live by the intent of Jesus, which is to be the best possible person you can be. I think, for me, that's the best way.

The stuff I bolded is part of what turns me off to any sort of organized Christian religioun. Add to it, the translations by people with their own agendas and the massive amount of stuff that was left out..........what's left is pretty much worthless to ME. It means nothing. It's just a copy of a historical remnant of insecure power hungry men, creating a fear based outline to use in controlling the masses.

I have my own morals. In many ways, a lot stricter than any bible thumping christian. In other ways, that same bible thumping christian would scream themselves purple in the face about how I am going to hell. Bully for them, I don't believe in either heaven or hell as a place to go to, so meh.

As someone who tries to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (and not the teachings of Paul, televangelists, Popes, etc.), I have encountered the "translation" question frequently - but with a twist.

Recently, on an vanilla Internet forum discussion of welfare, I quoted the Book of Matthew, Chapter 25 'Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for Me'… 'Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did not do for Me.'”. A self-identified “Christian” conservative responded that the quote was incorrect due to it being intentionally mis-translated by liberal socialists in a fraudulent attempt to make people feel guilty if they didn’t help those less fortunate than they are. (His source for the “fraudulent translation conspiracy theory”, he wrote, was something he heard the host say on an Evangelical Protestant talk-radio show.)

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 12:08:37 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		If he wasn't having content that can be traced to errors in translation, I hope he had no time for that "virgin birth" nonsense that crept in between the Latin and Greek versions, then.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 12:28:32 PM   
AneNoz


Posts: 263
Joined: 4/26/2011
Status: offline 		This struggle is not uncommon among those who do not have understanding of the nature of what is. If this teaching is counter to your heart then you have but to follow a different God or Goddess. The Nameless claims uniqueness, this blasphemy is but his madness, for he too, like all Gods, was created.

The Torah, Bible and Quran are indeed his revealed teachings and reflect his ever changing will, the reason for the prejudices and hatreds therein is that they are those of the Nameless God. He is a hateful, vengeful, and angry God, he himself admits so in saying "I am a jealous God". As well, he is mad, and thus the contradictions and megalomania in his words, also as well thus that he has wars among his followers on such a scale as an institution. He has a great need for power and has also as well a love of strife, blood, destruction and suffering. He is driven to this madness by his lust and jealousy.

What must be recalled always is that no God has the power or dominion claimed by the Nameless, he is but one among many, many hundreds of Gods. His power is great, perhaps even greater than any other, yet he has not all power nor does he rule all the world. None is supreme, none has such power, not yet even He Who Dreamed, who alone is uncreated and who, in his blindness, created all that is when he dreamed the Dream. For though the Dream is his, even he can not prevent the corruption of the Dream that is within the nature of it's realization inherently.

Thus if the teachings of the Nameless sing not with joy in your soul, you have but to seek a different path. That which is in your heart and your soul are the true guide, it is that which you must heed.

Be at peace
Aneka

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 12:42:16 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AneNoz

Ħajja huwa qasir


Gesundheit. 

(in reply to AneNoz)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 12:45:57 PM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

Very few people seem to know that those few words about it were not in the actual bible until King James held the crown. He was a homosexual himself and there were those that wanted the crown taken from him. Those few lines were added in a hopes that people would view their king as being sinful and they would then toss him out(or hang him) It was not an error in translation it was just a play for power that for a very long time people have failed to see the light about. There are actually a few other things like this in the bible as we now know it...but it takes a great deal of study to find them, and understand why man made the changes they made.


/Fires up Google/

Nothing on point yet, but this is an interesting analysis:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm

In order to understand what the Bible has to say on heterosexual activity, we could consult the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts, dividing all of the references to heterosexual sex into different categories:

rape;
sexual abuse of children;
ritual sex in Pagan temples;
prostitution;
sexual orgies;
non-exploitive, consensual, monogamous sex in a loving relationship, etc.


The final category above is the only one that would help us understand what the Bible teaches about heterosexual activity in a loving committed relationship. After all, a verse which describes how an army kidnapped some female virgins for use as sex slaves does not tell us anything about the role of sex in marriage today. A verse that discusses temple prostitution during the worship of Pagan gods does not instruct us about feelings of romantic love between a man and a woman.

Similarly, in order to comprehend what the Bible says about gay and lesbian relationships, we must pass over the references to homosexual rape, male sexual abuse of boys, and homosexual prostitution, same-sex orgies by heterosexuals, Pagan sexual rituals in temples, etc. We would be left with only those references relating to consensual sexual activities within homosexual partnerships. There may not be any of these. The Bible may be as silent on loving, committed same-sex partnerships as it is about planes, trains and automobiles.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 12:52:36 PM   
AneNoz


Posts: 263
Joined: 4/26/2011
Status: offline 		I thank you for the well wishes, and I pray health for you as well.

Be at peace
Aneka

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 12:56:11 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe we've just translated the dang book too many times and that guy didn't do that great of a job.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi1.htm

Take Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, for example. A word-by-word analysis of these two verses by the National Gay Pentecostal Alliance (NGPA), showed that the passages do not prohibit all same-sex behavior; they do not even prohibit all male same-sex activities. They merely control where male-male intercourse is allowed. It cannot be performed in a woman's bed, because that location is sacrosanct. Only the woman, and under certain circumstances a man, may occupy it. Otherwise, a serious defilement would result. 2

The New International Version (NIV) currently translates Leviticus 18:22 as:

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

The New Living Translation (NLT) widens the translation to also include lesbians:

"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Imagine what would happen to Bible sales if the interpretation by the National Gay Pentecostal Alliance (NGPA) was used. Translators might render this verse as:

"Two men must not engage in sexual activity on a woman's bed; it is ritually unclean.

By reading various translations of the Bible, generations of Christians have been conditioned to expect this verse to condemn all homosexual behavior -- or at least all male same-sex activity. They expect that it will be morally condemned as "an abomination" or at least as a "detestable" act. But this new translation does not prohibit male to male sexual behavior; it only limits where the act can be performed. And it does not say that this conduct, if done on a woman's bed, is to be morally condemned. It only says that it is ritually unclean, like coming too close to a dead body, or eating shellfish, or getting a tattoo. The readers would assume that the translation is defective and that the translators were distorting the original meaning of the passage in order to be politically correct and not offend gays and lesbians. The readers would be disinclined to buy the Bible. Thus, a truly accurate Bible would probably be a financial failure, and would never see the light of day.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 1:00:45 PM   
AneNoz


Posts: 263
Joined: 4/26/2011
Status: offline 		If you were not meant to be homosexual you would not have been created so. It is not by error that one is so, it is by design.

Be at peace
Aneka

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 1:14:49 PM   
Fightdirecto


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Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AneNoz
If you were not meant to be homosexual you would not have been created so. It is not by error that one is so, it is by design.
Be at peace
Aneka

Whenever anyone says to me, "People just aren't born gay. Being gay is a learned behavior", I always say "I was born straight and never had to "learn" to be sexually attracted to women. I liked girls before I even knew what to do with one. If I can be born straight, why can't someone else be born gay?"

Heck, I grew up in the theater, surrounded by gay men and lesbians. If exposure to gays must "turn" a person gay - what went wrong with me? Actually I liked being straight in that environment. My only competition for the girls in the cast were the lesbians. The more gay guys - the more straight and bisexual women for me...

But we digress from the primary subject of this thread...

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to AneNoz)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 1:20:30 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		My son has a somewhat unique take on this issue.  Once when arguing homosexuality with a pastor, my son blurted that the admonishment is kind of silly if you think of it terms of anatomy--it is physically impossible for a man to lie with a man in the way he lies with a woman.  

(in reply to AneNoz)
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RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 1:21:54 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
My son has a somewhat unique take on this issue.  Once when arguing homosexuality with a pastor, my son blurted that the admonishment is kind of silly if you think of it terms of anatomy--it is physically impossible for a man to lie with a man in the way he lies with a woman.  


Oh my god, that's funny.

pam

(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 1:26:36 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I firmly believe in "other beings who are spiritually higher than me."

Angels, Gods, Mere Fantasies of My Imagination, call them what you will.

In my mind I have experienced them, so they are real and true (oh geeze, sometimes I can't help myself).

I spent my 20s and 30s reading all the great holy books, at least the ones that have been translated into English: the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, the Tao Te Ching (a personal fav), the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Prophet, The Dhammapad (Buddhist), etc.

I studied the religions of the world for a solid decade and came to one conclusion, all organized religions are comprised of philosophies filtered through the eyes of it's adherents. There is some good in all of them, and some things I will never agree with. The process brought me much closer to an important realization about religion: no one religion suits me. I have formed my own personal spiritual philosophy, and that is enough for me.







_____________________________



(in reply to AneNoz)
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RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 1:57:05 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		It's hard to find and though I didn't find it on the net I can try to find it for you if you want me to. I do know I did not find it in the history of the bible though, I found it in the history of King James.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 1:59:40 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		Ain't it though.  BTW, my son was 15 when he came up with that.

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 2:09:42 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:



lol-"New Testament"...

L'shanah tovah, y'all!


Heh ... wrong week to be wrestling that question ... anyway, Happy New Year


_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 2:10:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
My son has a somewhat unique take on this issue.  Once when arguing homosexuality with a pastor, my son blurted that the admonishment is kind of silly if you think of it terms of anatomy--it is physically impossible for a man to lie with a man in the way he lies with a woman.  


Oh my god, that's funny.

Maybe it's God's way of saying that he encourages anal sex for the married folk? 

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 2:55:06 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		This is something I have been struggling with lately, not over the position on homosexuality, but on a broader issue of good vs. evil.

I was born and raised Catholic, I wouldn't say I was devout, but I was happily Catholic and more or less believed. I never really questioned or bothered with the teachings to much, I'd just go to confession and do my penance and be on my way. However, recent events have caused me a crisis of faith. I have thought about it, prayed about it, and talked about it with my priest, the Archbishop, my parents, my grandparents. I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot reconcile the idea of a loving and beneficent omnipotent Creator as taught by the Church with the events in my life. And so I have decided to renounce, not only the Church, but also my faith in God.

I don't know if God exists, but if He does, He is certainly not the kind and caring God we are taught about. Any God who could allow what happened to Valerie is not a God I could respect, let alone worship.

I hope you can find some answer that brings you peace, LadyP, and I'm certainly not going to argue with or urge you to follow my path, it is a painful and unpleasant process. That being said, I really do advise you to think long and carefully about the teachings of your church. Ask yourself honestly if the God your church or faith preaches is one who deserves your worship. I suspect that you will find He doesn't.

C.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 3:30:19 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Curious.... why would you renounce your faith in "god" based upon the actions and words of others?

Has "god" personally told you he was disappointed in you, that you are sinning, that you are wrong?

I have often wondered why people dont just start their own congregation. Base it upon the teachings of Jesus, and leave the rest behind.

Matthew 18:20. "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Deciding to not believe in something without proof, without facts, based just upon the opinions of others is just as perplexing as those who believe in something for the same reason.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/29/2011 3:31:31 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 4:18:52 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline
quote:

Curious.... why would you renounce your faith in "god" based upon the actions and words of others?
I answered that in my post.
quote:

I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot reconcile the idea of a loving and beneficent omnipotent Creator as taught by the Church with the events in my life.
quote:

Any God who could allow what happened to Valerie is not a God I could respect, let alone worship.
I don't know if I believe in a God or not, but one way or another, I have no faith in any God.

God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet he allowed my friend to be senselessly slaughtered for no reason whatsoever. If He is indeed omnipotent, then that means He wanted it to happen. Why did He want to punish us all, why did He want to cause Valerie's family such horrendous pain? Why does he cause such pain and suffering to so many people across the world, surely they are not all so evil that they deserve to have their children slaughtered? Such things are NOT compatible with the concept of God as taught by the Christian religions. And since the events are indisputably real, it's the Christian God that must be false.

The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.

I don't know if I am an atheist or not, I am still thinking about that, but what I do know is that I don't believe in the Christian God. He is a lie. Perhaps, like ChatteP it's time for me to start reading the books and teachings of other religious traditions. Who knows, maybe I will end up a Hindu.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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