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RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 4:31:52 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Im not looking for an argument, just an exchange of ideas and thoughts.

quote:

God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet he allowed my friend to be senselessly slaughtered for no reason whatsoever. If He is indeed omnipotent, then that means He wanted it to happen. Why did He want to punish us all, why did He want to cause Valerie's family such horrendous pain?


Do you really want a god deciding what you do or not do?

quote:

Such things are NOT compatible with the concept of God as taught by the Christian religions. And since the events are indisputably real, it's the Christian God that must be false


I disagree under the basis of free will. If you know something is going to happen, but you promised to never interfer, do you?

quote:

The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.


Has he damned you? Or were you told he has?

quote:

I don't know if I am an atheist or not, I am still thinking about that, but what I do know is that I don't believe in the Christian God. He is a lie. Perhaps, like ChatteP it's time for me to start reading the books and teachings of other religious traditions. Who knows, maybe I will end up a Hindu.



I was raised by my parents as a christian.... by my grandparents to believe in "the circle of life" kinda deal (easiet way to explain it), so I have no issue with you not believing... I dont either. I do believe in a much higher power. But my nonbelief didnt come about as the result of what others did or did not tell me.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/29/2011 4:32:46 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 5:00:20 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		As far as Mary's virginity, this is an interesting site:

http://carm.org/did-mary-have-other-children

luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 5:19:16 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline
quote:

Im not looking for an argument, just an exchange of ideas and thoughts.

I don't mind discussing it with you or anybody else, but I don't really think this is the appropriate thread to be holding this discussion in, as my reasons for my decision really aren't what LadyP was asking for. I will answer you here, but if you want to continue the discussion I think we should do so in a separate thread, so we don't derail and take over LadyP's thread.
quote:

quote:

God is supposed to be omnipotent, yet he allowed my friend to be senselessly slaughtered for no reason whatsoever. If He is indeed omnipotent, then that means He wanted it to happen. Why did He want to punish us all, why did He want to cause Valerie's family such horrendous pain?


Do you really want a god deciding what you do or not do?

It is not a question of my wanting a God to decide or not, it is simply that as an omnipotent God, everything that happens is by His will, He wants it to happen otherwise He would prevent it. So He chose to allow her death and to cause us all such pain, and that just isn't something that I can reconcile with the idea of a just and loving God. Such a God simply would not do that to innocent people.

quote:

quote:

Such things are NOT compatible with the concept of God as taught by the Christian religions. And since the events are indisputably real, it's the Christian God that must be false


I disagree under the basis of free will. If you know something is going to happen, but you promised to never interfer, do you?
He interferes again and again throughout the Bible, usually to smash and destroy somebody or something, He is constantly punishing people and demanding things from them, so this theory of free will and a a "hands off" God who is somehow bound by a divine Prime Directive simply doesn't coincide with the scriptural basis for the beliefs.

quote:

quote:

The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.


Has he damned you? Or were you told he has?
It is in His laws. It is in His book. it is in the teachings of those that profess to follow Him.

As well, I can't reconcile the idea used to explain the presence of disease, suffering, etc. either. At some point at the dawn of time, two people broke a commandment of God's, so as a result all subsequent generations, who are completely innocent of the sinful deed, are condemned to a life of suffering and struggle and pain. This is not my idea of a "just" action, it is more an act of vengeance run wild, to punish all the descendants of those two for all eternity.
quote:

quote:

I don't know if I am an atheist or not, I am still thinking about that, but what I do know is that I don't believe in the Christian God. He is a lie. Perhaps, like ChatteP it's time for me to start reading the books and teachings of other religious traditions. Who knows, maybe I will end up a Hindu.


I was raised by my parents as a christian.... by my grandparents to believe in "the circle of life" kinda deal (easiet way to explain it), so I have no issue with you not believing... I dont either. I do believe in a much higher power. But my nonbelief didnt come about as the result of what others did or did not tell me.

Valerie's murder was the catalyst that started me doubting and questioning, as I said I have spent a lot of time thinking, praying, and talking about these issues. It has not been a pleasant or comfortable process, nor have my decisions been reached lightly. And as I have said, I don't know if I believe in A God or not, I just don't believe in THAT God.



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:14:35 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hiya LP,

Several years ago, when I was doing some introspection I did some in depth self study of theology and philosophy, both Western and Eastern. It took a while to find it again, but this is something I found very enlightening on this subject:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh2.htm

Take care,
Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:23:53 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

The Bible is pretty clear on how it views the issue.



Actually it is not very clear, depending on what you consider to be the bible, the translation you are reading, and the particular topic that was being influenced by those that actually compiled it.

quote:


It is also fairly clear on a number of other ideas. Thomas Jefferson, who most view as a deist, wrote that in the words of Jesus were "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man".


This is very true, if you take all the direct quotes attributed to Jesus, and discard all the other interpretational stuff.

Judge not lest you be judged" (Matthew 7:1). "Do not take the mote from your brother's eye until you have removed the beam from your own"


Might I suggest a reread, and then also look at other passages that speak of the same thing. It is speaking of hypocricy:

1Judge not, that ye may not be judged;

2for with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you.

3But why lookest thou on the mote that is in the eye of thy brother, but observest not the beam that is in thine eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Allow [me], I will cast out the mote from thine eye; and behold, the beam is in thine eye?

5Hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine eye, and then thou wilt see clearly to cast out the mote out of the eye of thy brother.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mathew%207&version=DARBY

Hope this helps, it is one of the passages I so often see misquoted and the actual lesson not learned. We all commit hypocricy, but we should strive to apply the standards to others as we would ourselves.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:25:49 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
This is something I have been struggling with lately, not over the position on homosexuality, but on a broader issue of good vs. evil.

I was born and raised Catholic, I wouldn't say I was devout, but I was happily Catholic and more or less believed....

So your problem isn't with God per se, but with the human-invented dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. That's a different issue entirely.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:27:30 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

So your problem isn't with God per se, but with the human-invented dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. That's a different issue entirely.



K.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:41:27 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
The fact that He made me a lesbian and has also damned me to eternal suffering for acting on the urges and desires He gave me is just further proof to me that the God professed by the Christian faith is not one I can worship or accept. To condemn me to a life of loneliness and solitude, or to expect me to refrain from any physical intimacy with those I love, is not the act of a kind and loving God, it is the act of a cruel and capricious God. So if He exists, I reject Him and all He stands for.

IMO, God created you a lesbian just like God created me a heterosexual male. And, if you pardon the bad joke, we could probably become good friends because we have something in common – we both like women.

However, God did not "damn" you. The Roman Catholic Church dogma you were raised in "damned" you, individuals who sanctimoniously assume they know better than anyone else what God thinks "damned" you, and possibly you may be "damning" yourself, based on those human-created dogmas of the Church you were raised in. As a child, you were brain-washed to believe something that humans created, not something created by God - that being anything other than heterosexual was evil. Naturally you would have a hard time rejecting years of conditioning. I'm poly - and it took a long time for me to overcome the feeling that loving more than one woman at the same time was "wrong". I had to fight years of societal conditioning and well-intentioned brainwashing.

My youngest child is transgendered. Biologically born a girl, Patrick now lives his life as a man. Individuals may "damn" him, organized churches may "damn" him but I do not - and I do not believe God is "damning" him either.


_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:41:50 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline
quote:

So your problem isn't with God per se, but with the human-invented dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
No it's not, it's with the whole concept of God as seen by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Read all of her post and her replies to tazzy.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 7:52:37 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
quote:

So your problem isn't with God per se, but with the human-invented dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
No it's not, it's with the whole concept of God as seen by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Read all of her post and her replies to tazzy.

Get a Bible, one in which every word reported to have been said by Jesus Christ is printed in a different color (usually Red)

Read every word printed in that different color - and see if Jesus Christ said you are damned if you were born homosexual (or that ministers, priests or pastors must be celibate [a Roman Catholic dogma] or that unmarried couples of opposite genders cannot dance together [a Baptist dogma], and so on).

Any teaching of any organized church group that is not based on those words printed in that different color does not come from God or from Jesus Christ - they are dogma invented and created by men and women - some well-meaning, good intentioned men and women and some authoritarian control freak men and women who get an orgasm by forcing others to follow their rules (like a bad Dom or Domme).

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 8:30:34 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		And every one of those words written in red was written down by somebody with an agenda to push long after Jesus was supposed to have lived, so your entire premise is flawed.

Also, I refer you to Cheri's remark in post # 43:
quote:

I don't mind discussing it with you or anybody else, but I don't really think this is the appropriate thread to be holding this discussion in, as my reasons for my decision really aren't what LadyP was asking for. I will answer you here, but if you want to continue the discussion I think we should do so in a separate thread, so we don't derail and take over LadyP's thread.
Start a thread and Cheri will discuss it with you, otherwise just drop it.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 8:35:03 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

And every one of those words written in red was written down by somebody with an agenda to push long after Jesus was supposed to have lived, so your entire premise is flawed.

Also, I refer you to Cheri's remark in post # 43:
quote:

I don't mind discussing it with you or anybody else, but I don't really think this is the appropriate thread to be holding this discussion in, as my reasons for my decision really aren't what LadyP was asking for. I will answer you here, but if you want to continue the discussion I think we should do so in a separate thread, so we don't derail and take over LadyP's thread.
Start a thread and Cheri will discuss it with you, otherwise just drop it.

Just returned from a jazz gig and catching up in my hotel room on my laptop. Apparently I didn't go back far enough.

My bad...

Need to get some sleep anyway - tickets on the Red-Eye plane for home in a few hours...

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 11:03:45 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

He interferes again and again throughout the Bible, usually to smash and destroy somebody or something, He is constantly punishing people and demanding things from them, so this theory of free will and a a "hands off" God who is somehow bound by a divine Prime Directive simply doesn't coincide with the scriptural basis for the beliefs.


The bible, to me, is a beautifully wriiten story... not much more than that. Some facts are tossed in among some of the stories that were handed down first by word of mouth then to written form, transcribed into other languages, then dictated by the powers in charge.

I dont believe god turns someone into a pillar of salt, for example. I bet if there were a god, he would laugh at that one as much as I do.

Much of the bible was written to guide the morality of the times. A burning bush that talks? I dont have much faith in that either. The parting of the red sea is now known to have been a natural phenomenon ... some of the stories were written/told to explain things to the masses that they couldnt explain themselves.

Yes, I do have a cynical view of the Bible.... I dont about Jesus... go figure... lol. Again, the Bible is a great story... just that, written by man, for man, about things man could not explain. I do believe there was a Jesus who was a carpenter who was also a great teacher to many, giving hope to the masses. I also believe in his messages. That is where I concentrate. The figure jesus crosses into too many other religions for me to discount him.

quote:

It is in His laws. It is in His book. it is in the teachings of those that profess to follow Him.

As well, I can't reconcile the idea used to explain the presence of disease, suffering, etc. either. At some point at the dawn of time, two people broke a commandment of God's, so as a result all subsequent generations, who are completely innocent of the sinful deed, are condemned to a life of suffering and struggle and pain. This is not my idea of a "just" action, it is more an act of vengeance run wild, to punish all the descendants of those two for all eternity.


See above.

quote:

Valerie's murder was the catalyst that started me doubting and questioning, as I said I have spent a lot of time thinking, praying, and talking about these issues. It has not been a pleasant or comfortable process, nor have my decisions been reached lightly. And as I have said, I don't know if I believe in A God or not, I just don't believe in THAT God.


Valerie's murder was a tragedy, no doubt about it.. for her family as well as her friends. But it was an act of a person... I dont believe god is as the Bible describes him to be.

Perhaps that should be your journey... discovering the truth in that regard?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: A personal struggle - 9/29/2011 11:48:50 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		The topic of this thread is not my apostasy. Please respect LadyPact enough to address her question in this thread, she asked it because it is important to her.

In order to avoid further derailing her thread, I have started a thread for those who wish to discuss my renunciation of Christianity further.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3866325/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3866331

Thank you
C.

< Message edited by SuzeCheri -- 9/30/2011 12:06:04 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: A personal struggle - 9/30/2011 12:27:47 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I wanted to take the opportunity to thank everyone who wanted to contribute to the thread.  Many of the replies were very informative and I know that they were answers where some folks truly invested their time to write, look for references, and bring what they could to the table.

Honestly, this thread made Me feel a lot better about the subject.  I appreciate all of the contributions.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: A personal struggle - 9/30/2011 1:06:46 AM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		You're welcome, and I'm sorry that my post sidetracked things so much, I wouldn't have made it had I known.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: A personal struggle - 9/30/2011 2:35:47 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I firmly believe in "other beings who are spiritually higher than me."

Angels, Gods, Mere Fantasies of My Imagination, call them what you will.

In my mind I have experienced them, so they are real and true (oh geeze, sometimes I can't help myself).

snip

All organized religions are comprised of philosophies filtered through the eyes of it's adherents. There is some good in all of them, and some things I will never agree with. The process brought me much closer to an important realization about religion: no one religion suits me. I have formed my own personal spiritual philosophy, and that is enough for me.






That part of your post sums up how I feel so much better than I ever could.


_____________________________

yep

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: A personal struggle - 9/30/2011 6:25:34 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

It's hard to find and though I didn't find it on the net I can try to find it for you if you want me to. I do know I did not find it in the history of the bible though, I found it in the history of King James.


Yes, I'd be interested in reading both that and the virgin birth stuff.

LP - great thread; I enjoyed it very much.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: A personal struggle - 9/30/2011 1:15:05 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Has he damned you? Or were you told he has?


"All God has ever asked of anybody is that they ask a lot of themself."
(Michael Moorcock, The Warhound And The World's Pain)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: A personal struggle - 9/30/2011 1:23:42 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

It's hard to find and though I didn't find it on the net I can try to find it for you if you want me to. I do know I did not find it in the history of the bible though, I found it in the history of King James.


Yes, I'd be interested in reading both that and the virgin birth stuff.

LP - great thread; I enjoyed it very much.


This is all I can find online about the virgin mistranslation online, and is from a slightly biased source:
Atheist website sez...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 60
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