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TreasureKY -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 8:59:10 AM)
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Good morning, Cheri,
I want to start out making a couple of points on things that appear to me to be missing from the overall picture you paint.
First, the "Christian" faith covers a very broad area that isn't universally agreed to. Religion is a construct of man and is inherently flawed. You appear to take the beliefs of fundamental Christians (those who believe the Bible is both literal and infallible), and apply them across all Christian denominations.
About the only tenet universally shared by Christian denominations is that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Messiah.
While there are writings and historical records written by other men available, every bit of it is questionable. Even the Ten Commandments, widely accepted as words directly from God, are subject to the mis-translation and misinterpretation of man, as well as the distortion of understanding through time and distance. To say that man is very limited in his knowledge when it comes to God, is an understatement of "biblical" proportions.
The questions you have raised, have been raised countless times by countless number of people throughout the history of mankind. What you have been getting in the way of answers is a mere shadow of the contemplation and soul-searching that those here have put into understanding those very questions. I know for myself that it would take a book of massive size to record every experience, every thought, every feeling of my life's history that has brought me to the place where I am in my faith. Without that kind of background, no one here can guide you to your answers, and they would still differ as you have your own history to consider.
Again, I do not claim to have the answers. What I know and feel today will be changed incrementally by the events of tomorrow, and the future. The ideas and possibilities I present for your consideration are merely those things I have found some consistency in during my own search for answers. Maybe they will help you in yours, maybe they will not.
I do firmly believe, however, that should we ever find ourselves in a place of absolute certainty with regard to the existence and nature of God, we will be wrong.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
... What possible real choices do you have when the outcome of those choices is known in advance.
It seems to me what you've written essentially comes down to this one question. It is a good question. Consider it a compliment that by asking it, you have been in good company throughout mankind's history.
I wish I could give you a definitive answer that would satisfy, but more learned people than I have struggled with this one for eons. I will tell you that, at the place I am in my life, I find a small measure of understanding in considering all the decisions we make in life where we know the outcome will be less than desired.
Why do people have children? We all know, without doubt, that they will one day die. We can be certain that they will have moments of tragedy and heartache and that they will, without doubt, know pain in their life. If these certainties weren't enough, we also risk suffering much greater sorrows. What if they die young? What if they are physically deficient and have to struggle? What if something happens to us and they are left alone?
I wish I could say that there was a single answer.... and that the answer is the magnanimous idea that the joy of life and love far exceed the certainty of heartache. But with man, there are infinite possibilities. All I can tell you is that it is obvious that human kind has found reason enough throughout time to risk procreation.
Only you can answer for yourself if the tragedy that befell your friend was worth her never having been born. You are in a unique position of knowledge now... could you comfortably apply that knowledge as if you had the power to re-write history? You know how her life will end; would you gladly give up her existence to avoid that? Would her family agree with you? Would the people whose lives she touched feel the same?
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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
... it is a matter of the world being incompatible with God as defined by Christianity.
I cannot rebut your thoughts and the pain you feel. They exist and are as valid as any thoughts and feelings I may have. I would point out that the statement you make above is probably more correct than I think even you can imagine.
There is no correct definition of God by Christianity. As I've mentioned above, Christians are not united in their beliefs. I don't believe that we can define God for anyone else. I believe God is personal and unique to each person.
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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
... But you would have me believe he is infinitely good.
Actually, no... I wouldn't. As I mentioned previously, I do not believe that God is one-dimensional. I believe that, just as we are complex creatures, God is infinitely more so. Historical anecdotes show us that God is many things... angry, jealous, vengeful, uncompromising, compassionate, generous, benevolent. Because I can understand the nature of man, I feel that I cannot ascribe to God any less.
There are many people in my life that I would consider to be kind and loving and good. But I do not assume because of that, that they cannot also be angry or jealous or vengeful. Why would God not be capable of just as much depth?
If the story related in the Bible of Moses and the burning bush is an accurate representation of how God wished us to understand his nature, then אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה ("Ehyeh asher ehyeh" or "I am that I am") is what we get.
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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
Your child in a bubble analogy only applies because that is the way God created the world, he could have created it so that never choosing the bad or eviol act was infinitely fulfilling. Yet he didn't. Why?
Why didn't God create the grass to appear purple to us? Why weren't we created to breathe water? Why don't we have eyes in the back of our heads as well as the front?
There are certainly many different possibilities other than the ones we have. Some much more valid than what exists. Personally, I do not understand why we only get one set of permanent teeth when they were obviously not designed to last a lifetime.
I wish I could give you an answer. Someday, I hope to know.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
God had to create evil, it couldn't exist otherwise. We don't create it, we may cause it, but we are not the reason it exists. It exists for the same reason that everything else does. God created it, he created everything.
Did God create Himself?
Did God create good and evil, or is their existence due to His?
I am willing to entertain the idea that evil exists because good exists.
I wish I could tell you why they exist, but the result of the existence of both good and evil is readily apparent. It is part of the depth of complexity of our life and existence. I believe that without the existence of both good and evil, our existence would surely be more pleasant, but it would be substantially more shallow and have less meaning.
I realize this is all vague and cannot begin to answer your question. Please just be willing to accept that your concept of God creating everything may be skewed. Consider the possibility that God designed and created this universe, but after that, we've been pretty much on our own.
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ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
If God has the attributes that Christianity attributes to him, evil and suffering cannot exist, neither can free will. Now, since I know for a fact that suffering exists along with evil, i also know that god does not have the attributes attributed to him by Christianity, and therefore, Christianity is a false doctrine, because it misrepresents the nature of God.
I would make only the following corrections to your premise...
Now, since I know for a fact that suffering exists along with evil, i also know that god does not have ONLY the attributes attributed to him by SOME FORMS OF Christianity, and therefore, SOME FORMS OF Christianity ARE AN INCOMPLETE doctrine, because THEY DO NOT ACCURATELY REPRESENT the nature of God.
I would counter with the simple fact that we cannot know the complete nature of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Regardless of my beliefs or anyone else's, you have to find the answers for yourself, the ones that work for you.
None of us can tell you why God, nature or fate allowed your friend to die, nor can we make you change your mind one way or the other, we can only offer condolences and the hope that one day, you will come to terms with what happened in a way that works for you.
This is very much worth repeating. [:)]
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