RE: I renounce Christianity (Full Version)

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SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 3:40:10 PM)

Neither.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 3:42:02 PM)

Just.. is. Interesting concept. Both have their own rewards. If someone wanted to rob you, that would be ok with you. Its what they want, and they feel its ok to do so.

Am I getting this right?



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 3:57:44 PM)

No. If evil didn't exist, they wouldn't want to rob me.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 3:58:37 PM)

Ah so now you are determining what evil is and what good is.



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 3:59:56 PM)

Well yes, and so were you.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:01:31 PM)

Actually, no I didnt.

I said someone could rob you who felt they are right in doing so.



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:08:45 PM)

You didn't chose the example of somebody wanting to rob me because you think it is a good or morally neutral act.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:14:45 PM)

I can see how it would be.

The problem with the "no evil" theory is that not everyone sees an act as evil.. just as not everyone will see an act as good. Society, made up of many people, determine which acts are which. And society can change its mind.

You may think climbing a tree is a neautral act. Someone else may consider it evil because you are hurting the tree.

So, then the question becomes... which acts are evil, which are good, and who decides?



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:29:11 PM)

How does that relate to why it is necessary to have evil? A lack of consensus on what might qualify as an evil act in no way necessitates the existence of evil.



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:31:56 PM)

Take your tree climbing example, if the view that it is evil is correct, then if evil didn't exist, people simply wouldn't climb trees or even want to.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:32:51 PM)

Who determines what is a necessity for life and morality? I am saying its impossible to eradicate. I am saying its a part of life. I am saying it is necessary.

I havent heard your argument for it not being so.

I think hunting a deer with a high powered rifle is evil. A hunter would not. What makes that act evil or not evil?



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:35:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Take your tree climbing example, if the view that it is evil is correct, then if evil didn't exist, people simply wouldn't climb trees or even want to.


One person says its evil.. one says its not. Who is right?



TreasureKY -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:44:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Actually, no... I wouldn't.
Then you no longer believe in the God that Jesus preached about, and therefore, like me, you are no longer a Christian. Jesus, and every Christian denomination I am aware of teaches that God was indeed infinitely good, and Christian theology is, as far as I know, universal in the idea that God is completely good, he is simply incapable of doing wrong, if God does it, then it is by definition a good thing, and if it does not seem so, that is simply because you don't fully understand. That view has been expressed several times in this thread.


I've never claimed to be a good Christian.  [;)] 

However, I ask you... just exactly what did Jesus preach about God?  Where is it recorded that Jesus described God as infinitely good?

Personally... I figure I'm not here to try to judge God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

I wish I could give you an answer.
The answer seems blatantly obvious to me: God didn't make doing always doing the right thing infinitely fulfilling because he wants some of us to chose the evil action.


Perhaps I don't subscribe to the idea that God takes such an individual hand in our lives.  I've never bought into the line that everything happens because it is God's will.  That, to me, defies the whole purpose of God giving us free will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Did God create Himself? 
No, this is the central tenet of all three Abrahamic religions, God alone was not created, he is eternal. He has always existed.


I don't disagree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Did God create good and evil, or is their existence due to His?
He is the creator, he created everything other than himself.


If, as you suggest, God created good and evil... just what was he prior to his creating good and evil?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Please list the forms of Christianity that do not believe the following, so i can learn more about them:
1. God is all-powerful.
2. God is all-knowing
3. God is infinitely good.
4. God is justice, and his justice is perfect.
5. God is without fault or flaw.


With there reportedly being some 38,000 different Christian denominations world-wide, I'm sure you can understand that there is a life-time's worth of research involved with your request.  Here is a place to start if you are truly interested.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

I would counter with the simple fact that we cannot know the complete nature of God.
To me that's a cop out. That is simply choosing to ignore the flaws in the conception of god under consideration.


I don't consider it a "cop out".  It is an acknowledgment of limitation.  Until God decides to show himself to us... "in the flesh", so to speak... all we have is conjecture, supposition, and anecdotal reference.  If you have the ability to truly know someone and understand their complete nature without having ever met or spoken, then more power to you.

Me... I'm merely human.  [:)]



SoulAlloy -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i wonder how many people lose faith when something bad happens?
i consider myself spiritual but not religious (this is just one of many reasons why i can't seem to relate to other black people, hahaha =p)
i was actually slipping away from it for a while; i don't necessarily not believe in God, i just don't believe in organized religion.

but after my M died; he was an out-and-out non-Christian. and so many people had these complicated dreams that synched up with each other -- about the place where he was and that he was happy. and it changed the way i thought of the afterlife. and it seems like christianity is so focused on "only we will get to the afterlife" and clearly this man who i knew to be a non-christian was there.

so there's more going on than christianity accounts for, and i just don't wholly subscribe to it anymore.

plus, geez -- on a grief board, i read a response by a lady who said "God took my husband away because i was focusing too much on him instead of God" -- okay if "God" will do that, then i don't think i want to hang out with him anyway. if that was the reason M had to go through a terrifying drowning death in cold, dirty, swirling water, then screw that.

the thing is, i've had some great experienced with "God" -- i do believe there is SOMETHING there, i just don't think it's as neat and tidy as Christianity wants to make it.


This is very much my thoughts too. I remember reading Revelations and seeming horrified that the gentiles weren't mentioned in being spared from the suffering. I probably didn't read it properly or missed something out but it sparked the thought of why would a just god only accept those that worshipped him?

I've heard arguments too that the Bible was more of a survival manual of the time, advising against certain practices due to the risk of disease, harsh endings for the vain of heart who look to their own needs before the groups.

But everytime I look at science and nature and the way everything runs so brilliantly together in balance and how there is so much symbiosis I can't help but marvel and ponder how all this could happen by mere accident. How everything can bind so neatly and completely together from an atomic level to such beautiful complexity.

As for the question of evil, my thought has always been that if one does not know evil, how does one know what is good? Overly simplistic and somewhat chilling at times, but often gives me food for thought. What makes a person do such evil is something I do not understand, and is also something I am not sure I want to ever understand.
I also sometimes think on the predictions that Jesus will return at a time when there are none in this world who believe in him. Not a few, not one, none. I know it won't happen in my lifetime, though it does pose a potential crueler edge to evil.

And for those that may have played Alpha Centauri you may recognise this quote "I have often been asked why a perfect God would make a world with evil. They have missed a greater conundrum - why would a perfect God make a world at all?" Again just food for thought.



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 4:52:28 PM)

quote:


One person says its evil.. one says its not. Who is right?
It's irrelevant what people say. if there is no such thing as evil, then the inherent nature of the act is all that applies. If it is in fact evil, then it simply wouldn't exist as a possibility. 



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 5:00:23 PM)

Of course its relevant. We as a species are ever evolving, always changing. What was good yesterday may be evil tomorrow. The reverse is also true. We arent a stagnant species.



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 5:04:56 PM)

quote:

Personally... I figure I'm not here to try to judge God.
It isn't God I am judging, just one particular model of what he is like.
quote:

Perhaps I don't subscribe to the idea that God takes such an individual hand in our lives.  I've never bought into the line that everything happens because it is God's will. 
Neither do I.
quote:

If, as you suggest, God created good and evil... just what was he prior to his creating good and evil?
A very good point!! Yet another problem with the Christian concept of God.
quote:

With there reportedly being some 38,000 different Christian denominations world-wide, I'm sure you can understand that there is a life-time's worth of research involved with your request.  Here is a place to start if you are truly interested.
So you don't actually know of any either. There's probably some obscure one out there somewhere, but that doesn't redeem the ones that do believe those things.
quote:

I don't consider it a "cop out".
I do, if I have to suspend reason and rational thought for an idea of what God is like to be compatible with observable reality, then the idea is wrong.




SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 5:07:16 PM)

Also irrelevant to the essential nature of something.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 5:13:35 PM)

I disagree. In order for all evil to be removed, any thoughts of past evil must be removed. Any thoughts leading to future evil must also be removed. If god stops one evil, he must stop all evil. If he stops some, then some remains. If he stops all, what happens to free thought, free will?



SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/1/2011 5:15:59 PM)

quote:

In order for all evil to be removed, any thoughts of past evil must be removed. Any thoughts leading to future evil must also be removed. If god stops one evil, he must stop all evil.
Obviously.
quote:

If he stops all, what happens to free thought, free will?
Nothing really, you just have one less option to chose from.



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