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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 1:51:54 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

So with good comes evil, with love comes hate, etc. What purpose does it servere? To drive someone away from something, just as love often attracts.
Why? I can't see any reason why good can't exist without evil or why love can't exist without hate. Nor do I see why one would need evil to be drawn to good or hate to be drawn to love. Why have something intrinsically bad if its only purpose is to drive you away from it, why not just not have it in the first place? You said love attracts, so what is to have hate just to be driven away from it? It's illogical.

As well, I can't see what meaning death gives to life, immortality would be just as meaningful as far as I can see.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 1:53:30 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

...to MSLA. For somebody who claims they "could honestly care less if you or anyone else believes in God or not" and says it "matters not" if I accept or reject your answers, I find it odd that you are investing so much time, effort, and animosity in telling me just how wrong I am.



Where have I stated that you were "wrong" not to believe in God?



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It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 242
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 1:57:05 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

I am attempting to stay within the realms of the Abrahamic religions, but much of what you ask is better understood from an Eastern, or even "Earth" religion.
Which is why the title of this thread is "I renounce Christianity" not "I renounce God". I mentioned somewhere along the line that I have the same basic problem with Judaism and Islam, so as far as I am concerned all the Abrahamic religions are flawed beyond redemption simply because the concept of God required of them is illogical and contradictory.

I must admit I am presently drawn to dualistic constructions either with two entities, or a single dual-natured entity.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 2:00:34 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

You cannot have God w/o Satan, anymore than you can have daylight w/o night, than you can have life w/o death (something must die to feed you), good w/o evil, light w/o dark.

Our universe is one of balance. It's one of opposites. The two opposites TOGETHER make the whole.

That's close to the Parsi religion's view of things, or at least what I know of it based on what a friend of mine who is a Parsi told me about it.


Except that in the Parsi religion good and evil are at constant odds, as opposed to merely existing in the same universe. (Or at least, that's my understanding. I'm no expert on Parsi).

I do know that Parsi is an Indian-Zoroastrian philosophy and religion that is considered the foundation of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) along with the Dharmic and Taoic religions.

Prior to the 6th century it was one of the largest religions in the world. Now I believe it is confined to certain geographic locations in India.

In any case, the basic ideology has been around for a very long time.






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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 2:00:55 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Interestingly, I was actually thinking about this late last night after signing off... in that, while it may be a "disaster" to US (people) because who chose to build Condos in Florida or barns in Kansas, it's merely a cycle of the earth. Granted, I don't know if "population checks" is the intent (with regard to natural disasters), but given things like hurricanes, tornados and such generally happen during specific times of the year, it's obvious there's a "cycle" to things.


Perhaps the cycle or pattern that you perceive is due to your limited view. Depends upon the heat content of the sea and the land, doesn't it? Depends on whether you are in the northern or southern hemisphere, don't you think? The magnetic poles have drifted and continue to do so. The Continents were all one land mass and are expected to reform into a single land mass long beyond your time and mine. The Atlantic Ocean will be extinguished by the movement of the continents. Antarctic was once tropical. Mountains are pushed up as tectonic plates push against one another. Yellowstone exploded 300,000 years ago and may explode once again. Cycles? Patterns? Only because our views are limited by time and place. Maybe, just maybe the geological and atmospheric forces of the Earth are a series of random events and that Life in all the nooks and cranies of this heaving rock is just incidental and unimportant. Maybe.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 245
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 2:09:01 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Interestingly, I was actually thinking about this late last night after signing off... in that, while it may be a "disaster" to US (people) because who chose to build Condos in Florida or barns in Kansas, it's merely a cycle of the earth. Granted, I don't know if "population checks" is the intent (with regard to natural disasters), but given things like hurricanes, tornados and such generally happen during specific times of the year, it's obvious there's a "cycle" to things.


Perhaps the cycle or pattern that you perceive...



Direct quote:

Hurricane Season Dates
"Hurricane season in the Atlantic begins June 1st and ends November 30th."

Source: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/



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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 2:39:29 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

So with good comes evil, with love comes hate, etc. What purpose does it servere? To drive someone away from something, just as love often attracts.
Why? I can't see any reason why good can't exist without evil or why love can't exist without hate. Nor do I see why one would need evil to be drawn to good or hate to be drawn to love. Why have something intrinsically bad if its only purpose is to drive you away from it, why not just not have it in the first place? You said love attracts, so what is to have hate just to be driven away from it? It's illogical.

As well, I can't see what meaning death gives to life, immortality would be just as meaningful as far as I can see.



The contrast or the opposition gives it depth and perception. Otherwise it just is. There also must be choices for free will to exist. Good and bad are perceptions of humans, and are subjective. A single action viewed from different perspectives, maybe be judged in different ways. If there were only a single way, then what is the purpose of free will. How could one truly appreciate life, if is always there. It's significance would diminish to becoming something that just is (grass is green, water is wet) and not be appreciated much. If every day I smell roses, from here to eternity then the smell just becomes as it should, and that feeling the smell of a fresh rose gives goes away. It is perfectly logical, when viewed how the human psyche works.

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Profile   Post #: 247
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 2:47:23 PM   
outhere69


Posts: 1302
Joined: 1/25/2011
Status: offline 		As an aside, isn't it kind of ballsy for fundamentalists of any faith to think that theirs is the only truth in existence?  There are/have been hundreds of religions (at least) - what's to say (per this thread) Christianity is the only truth.  For all we know, some long-lost faith held all the cards and we're all toast.

Sheer numbers of believers doesn't mean a belief possesses any greater truth.  

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 248
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:03:06 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Interestingly, I was actually thinking about this late last night after signing off... in that, while it may be a "disaster" to US (people) because who chose to build Condos in Florida or barns in Kansas, it's merely a cycle of the earth. Granted, I don't know if "population checks" is the intent (with regard to natural disasters), but given things like hurricanes, tornados and such generally happen during specific times of the year, it's obvious there's a "cycle" to things.


Perhaps the cycle or pattern that you perceive...



Direct quote:

Hurricane Season Dates
"Hurricane season in the Atlantic begins June 1st and ends November 30th."

Source: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/




And here was a report of a typhoon [hurricane] that battered Bangladesh on December 12,1981. Posting a tantrum in large letters does not negate the main points of my argument (which you conveniently omitted) that our perceptions of natural cycles might be a trick of the mind due to our limits of time and place AND in fact there may be no order in the geological and atmospherical forces of Earth AND life may be incidental and ERGO (previously left unsaid) no gods except as efforts by the human brain to find order in chaos.

What cycles do you see in earthquakes? How about volcanic eruptions? Predictable, you think?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/1/2011 3:06:12 PM >

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:05:50 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

Actually, no... I wouldn't.
Then you no longer believe in the God that Jesus preached about, and therefore, like me, you are no longer a Christian. Jesus, and every Christian denomination I am aware of teaches that God was indeed infinitely good, and Christian theology is, as far as I know, universal in the idea that God is completely good, he is simply incapable of doing wrong, if God does it, then it is by definition a good thing, and if it does not seem so, that is simply because you don't fully understand. That view has been expressed several times in this thread.
quote:

I wish I could give you an answer.
The answer seems blatantly obvious to me: God didn't make doing always doing the right thing infinitely fulfilling because he wants some of us to chose the evil action.
quote:

Did God create Himself? 
No, this is the central tenet of all three Abrahamic religions, God alone was not created, he is eternal. He has always existed.
quote:

Did God create good and evil, or is their existence due to His?
He is the creator, he created everything other than himself.
quote:

I would make only the following corrections to your premise...

Now, since I know for a fact that suffering exists along with evil, i also know that god does not have ONLY the attributes attributed to him by SOME FORMS OF Christianity, and therefore, SOME FORMS OF Christianity ARE AN INCOMPLETE doctrine, because THEY DO NOT ACCURATELY REPRESENT the nature of God.
Please list the forms of Christianity that do not believe the following, so i can learn more about them:
1. God is all-powerful.
2. God is all-knowing
3. God is infinitely good.
4. God is justice, and his justice is perfect.
5. God is without fault or flaw.
quote:

I would counter with the simple fact that we cannot know the complete nature of God.
To me that's a cop out. That is simply choosing to ignore the flaws in the conception of god under consideration.



< Message edited by SuzeCheri -- 10/1/2011 3:06:51 PM >

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:11:58 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

I've explained it several times in this thread already. You ignored, misunderstood, or disagreed with it those times, so there's nothing to be gained in repeating myself.



Actually, Suze, I have asked you many questions on this thread that YOU have chosen to ignore.

You start out by using MY posts to make YOUR claims that you are being harrased and attacked.. which was far from the truth.

Are you so sure you have?

Because, honestly, the question you have not answered is this....

Free will is incompatible with the God of Christianity.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 251
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:12:59 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

Where have I stated that you were "wrong" not to believe in God?
When did I ever say I didn't believe in God?

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 252
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:14:14 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

As well, I can't see what meaning death gives to life, immortality would be just as meaningful as far as I can see.


If you cant see the answer in that, there is no hope for you understanding the rest.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:21:02 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		I'm sorry, I just don't see the necessity of it. Love would be just as thrilling without existence of hate, good would be just as beneficial without the existence of bad, and life would be just as wonderful and worth living without the existence of death. None of it would be any less rewarding or deep, or any less in any way in the absence of it's opposite. I just can't see the need for the opposite for something to be just exactly as worthwhile. Equally, I see no need for good to exist for evil to, evil can exist without the existence of good, and it would be just as evil.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:26:08 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		How would you differentiate between good and evil if no evil existed?


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:30:51 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
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quote:

You start out by using MY posts to make YOUR claims that you are being harrased and attacked.. which was far from the truth.
No I didn't.

quote:

Because, honestly, the question you have not answered is this....

Free will is incompatible with the God of Christianity.
Yes I have, repeatedly. The answer is omniscience.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:33:40 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

How would you differentiate between good and evil if no evil existed?
I wouldn't, there would be no need to, there would be nothing to differentiate between.

< Message edited by SuzeCheri -- 10/1/2011 3:34:47 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 257
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:36:18 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Then your assumption would be that everything would be good.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:37:52 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		No.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 3:38:55 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Then I am confused. You state there is no need for evil.. yet everything wouldnt be good. If its not good.. and not evil.. what is it?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 260
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