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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:20:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		You have one option to chose from... which really is no choice at all. One less implies there are many at this point. The options we are discussing are good vs evil. Take out one, you have one left... the only one

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:21:21 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Treasure, that was a really good explanation (for lack of a better word) of things. Truly beautiful.

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:24:37 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

So with good comes evil, with love comes hate, etc. What purpose does it servere? To drive someone away from something, just as love often attracts.
Why? I can't see any reason why good can't exist without evil or why love can't exist without hate. Nor do I see why one would need evil to be drawn to good or hate to be drawn to love. Why have something intrinsically bad if its only purpose is to drive you away from it, why not just not have it in the first place? You said love attracts, so what is to have hate just to be driven away from it? It's illogical.

As well, I can't see what meaning death gives to life, immortality would be just as meaningful as far as I can see.



If hate didn't exist, how would you know love? If somethings didn't feel bad, how would you know the difference when things felt good? It would be kind of like the entire world existed with everyone having a frontal lobotomy.

ETA:

As for death, well if no one ever died, can you imagine how crowded the planet would be? For me, I think if I lived that long, I would get bored.

As for pain, in the most simplest sense, pain exists to protect us. We don't put our hand on the hot stove because we know it will cause pain. So in a sense, pain is a part of self preservation.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 10/1/2011 5:25:58 PM >

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:30:01 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		but i dunno what part emotional pain serves in self-preservation.
what does watching my M die teach me about protecting myself? not forming strong bonds with people? avoiding love because pain will inevitably follow?
it doesn't make any sense.


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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:31:03 PM   
SuzeCheri


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Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
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quote:

The options we are discussing are good vs evil.
No it's not, you might have been, but that has never been what I was discussing. That's why, when you asked "If its not good.. and not evil.. what is it?" I answered "Neither." Good and evil are not the only options.


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Profile   Post #: 285
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:32:27 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

As an aside, isn't it kind of ballsy for fundamentalists of any faith to think that theirs is the only truth in existence?  There are/have been hundreds of religions (at least) - what's to say (per this thread) Christianity is the only truth.  For all we know, some long-lost faith held all the cards and we're all toast.

Sheer numbers of believers doesn't mean a belief possesses any greater truth.  


Most organized religions belief that "their way" is the "only way." I agree it doesn't make sense. Even though I am a Christian, I don't believe that a Buddist, Muslim, Jew or whatever is damned because they don't believe as I do. I believe that if people of those faiths follow the teachings of the faith, the basis of all, which is being a good person and not causing undue harm to others, they will reach Heaven, Nirvana or whatever place their faith teaches them exists. Even atheists, who don't believe but are good, kind people who don't cause undue harm will be rewarded as well.

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:33:56 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

As an aside, isn't it kind of ballsy for fundamentalists of any faith to think that theirs is the only truth in existence? 



In my experience, there tends to be two schools of thought with regard to people of faith:

1.  Theirs is the only truth.

2.  Theirs is THEIR truth, and others have their OWN truth.

Thus, there are certainly those of the "my God is better than your God" thinking, and others that simply believe what they believe, leaving others to believe as they wish to believe -- i.e., a belief in "A" does not, ipso facto, equate to a degradation of a belief in "B".





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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:36:56 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

The options we are discussing are good vs evil.
No it's not, you might have been, but that has never been what I was discussing. That's why, when you asked "If its not good.. and not evil.. what is it?" I answered "Neither." Good and evil are not the only options.




Ok.. what are the other options?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:37:01 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


Given someone of your limited capacity somehow equates font size with emotion, feel free to engage with someone else that doesn't think you a fool.  I'm not that person.



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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:41:58 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

I'm sorry, I just don't see the necessity of it. Love would be just as thrilling without existence of hate, good would be just as beneficial without the existence of bad, and life would be just as wonderful and worth living without the existence of death. None of it would be any less rewarding or deep, or any less in any way in the absence of it's opposite. I just can't see the need for the opposite for something to be just exactly as worthwhile. Equally, I see no need for good to exist for evil to, evil can exist without the existence of good, and it would be just as evil.

Since none of us has ever experienced the wonderful world you outline above, we have no way of knowing if anything would be better in it.

The questions and doubts you are having are, get ready for it, NORMAL.  You are growing as a person, and growing older, and with that comes wisdom on how YOU deal with things, both good and bad.

There is no wrong or right answer to the mystery of life, in my opinion.  We all find our own way to deal with all it has to offer, both good and bad.

Helping each other, and also realizing that no one takes the same route on the journey, is what it is all about, to me.  Yall are such smart young ladies, it just pains me to have everything I type taken as ageist, when, in fact, I mean to say those who start out with the strength that you exhibit says to me that in 20 years, you will be 20 years smarter and that will be awesome.


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Profile   Post #: 290
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:43:40 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

How would you differentiate between good and evil if no evil existed?
I wouldn't, there would be no need to, there would be nothing to differentiate between.


That's the point though. With nothing to differentiate from, how would you even know you were feeling love or feeling good? It's kind of like when people talked about all the poor Russians were missing because of communism. They weren't missing anything, because for them, those things had never existed.

Love and hate are emotions, just two of many. If there was never any sadness, how would you actually know you were happy? We would simply exist without feeling anything because there wasn't any range to tell you the difference.

Compare it in a way to relationships. A good relationship makes you feel happy and give you the "warm fuzzies." Without a range of emotions, everything would make you feel happy and give you the "warm fuzzies," so there would be no difference and no need to choose a partner, because they were all the same. Even being poly, you don't want to be poly with everyone, you choose who will enter into your group based on many things, but one of which is that they make you (and all involved) feel good.


(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:45:45 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Cheri,

I, along with many other spiritual persons here, have tried to be very patient and supportive... as well as share with you our private thoughts and beliefs.  I can't speak for everyone else, but I've done so in an attempt to perhaps give you some insight that maybe you've not considered before, in the hopes it might help you in your search for peace in light of the pain you've experienced.

It seems to me that you wish to blame "Christianity" for teaching a doctrine about God that you cannot reconcile within yourself.

I tried pointing out to you earlier that to be a "Christian" only means at a fundamental level that you believe that Jesus was the Messiah.  There are many more monotheistic religions and belief systems that do not involve Jesus, yet hold a similar doctrine concerning God to the one you rail against. 

I am missing the connection in what it is about believing that Jesus is Christ has to do with your dissatisfaction with how the world was created.

If you simply wanted to say that you no longer have faith the the religion in which you were raised, then so be it.  But I suspect what you should be dissatisfied with is your own limited understanding. 

I believe I have aptly demonstrated that is it possible to hold Christian beliefs, yet not suffer the same state of dissonance.  If you wish to believe that I have somehow suspended reason and rational thought in order to reach that peace, that is your prerogative.  However, I will say that I take umbrage at your flippant assessment given that you cannot possibly begin to understand the 49 year journey that has brought me to this point.

Be that as it may, I do wish you the best and hope you find your peace.

Treasure

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Profile   Post #: 292
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:45:58 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

I don't consider it a "cop out". It is an acknowledgment of limitation. Until God decides to show himself to us... "in the flesh", so to speak... all we have is conjecture, supposition, and anecdotal reference. If you have the ability to truly know someone and understand their complete nature without having ever met or spoken, then more power to you.


Excuse my intrusion into your dialogue with cheri, Treasure, but this statement you made above confounds me. Is it not the basic tenent of all Christianity that the God of Abraham became flesh in Jesus? Isn't that what being a Christian is all about? I mean generally and universally. I suppose there might be some modern sects that believe Jesus was not divine. But haven't they lost the battle? Are they not outlyers? Is it not the meaning of the eucharist that Jesus is God incarnate ~ in the flesh? Just askin'

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:48:22 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Cheri,

I, along with many other spiritual persons here, have tried to be very patient and supportive... as well as share with you our private thoughts and beliefs.  I can't speak for everyone else, but I've done so in an attempt to perhaps give you some insight that maybe you've not considered before, in the hopes it might help you in your search for peace in light of the pain you've experienced.

It seems to me that you wish to blame "Christianity" for teaching a doctrine about God that you cannot reconcile within yourself.

I tried pointing out to you earlier that to be a "Christian" only means at a fundamental level that you believe that Jesus was the Messiah.  There are many more monotheistic religions and belief systems that do not involve Jesus, yet hold a similar doctrine concerning God to the one you rail against. 

I am missing the connection in what it is about believing that Jesus is Christ has to do with your dissatisfaction with how the world was created.

If you simply wanted to say that you no longer have faith the the religion in which you were raised, then so be it.  But I suspect what you should be dissatisfied with is your own limited understanding. 

I believe I have aptly demonstrated that is it possible to hold Christian beliefs, yet not suffer the same state of dissonance.  If you wish to believe that I have somehow suspended reason and rational thought in order to reach that peace, that is your prerogative.  However, I will say that I take umbrage at your flippant assessment given that you cannot possibly begin to understand the 49 year journey that has brought me to this point.

Be that as it may, I do wish you the best and hope you find your peace.

Treasure





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Profile   Post #: 294
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:50:32 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline
quote:

If hate didn't exist, how would you know love? If somethings didn't feel bad, how would you know the difference when things felt good?
I don't want to be rude, but that is just nonsensical.
quote:

As for death, well if no one ever died, can you imagine how crowded the planet would be?
No, I imagine we'd just wouldn't be doing a lot of reproducing. If we are going to assume a world where there is no death, then why must we assume we would have the same biological drives as we do in a world where death is prevalent.
quote:

For me, I think if I lived that long, I would get bored.
I guess you don't have as much imagination as I do. And again, if we are assuming the absence of death, why must we assume a similar psychological nature?
quote:

As for pain, in the most simplest sense, pain exists to protect us. We don't put our hand on the hot stove because we know it will cause pain. So in a sense, pain is a part of self preservation.
I was meaning emotional pain, which LillyBoPeep has addressed with enough skill and poignancy that I there's no need to add to what she said.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:53:30 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
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quote:

Even though I am a Christian, I don't believe that a Buddist, Muslim, Jew or whatever is damned because they don't believe as I do. I believe that if people of those faiths follow the teachings of the faith, the basis of all, which is being a good person and not causing undue harm to others, they will reach Heaven, Nirvana or whatever place their faith teaches them exists. Even atheists, who don't believe but are good, kind people who don't cause undue harm will be rewarded as well.
That isn't the teaching of any Christian group I am aware of. Is that the doctrine of your church or your personal take on things?

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:54:35 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		Neither.

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Profile   Post #: 297
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:54:54 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Where have I stated that you were "wrong" not to believe in God?
When did I ever say I didn't believe in God?


You stated...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

...to MSLA. For somebody who claims they "could honestly care less if you or anyone else believes in God or not" and says it "matters not" if I accept or reject your answers, I find it odd that you are investing so much time, effort, and animosity in telling me just how wrong I am.



Thus, my question of, 'Where have I stated that you were "wrong" not to believe in God?', as that's what I addressed, and that which you responded to.  Anyway, hopefully that clarifies where the "believe in God" thing came from.

So okay, moving forward... assuming you do believe in some deity (as outlined in this post), I ask you again... where have I allegedly stated how "wrong" you are in your religious/non-religious beliefs?  Please note:  I'm not asking the question for some silly forum debate purpose, but to truly understand where you may have gotten that impression, as that's absolutely NOT been my intent during our exchange, Cheri.



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Profile   Post #: 298
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 5:56:27 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I don't consider it a "cop out". It is an acknowledgment of limitation. Until God decides to show himself to us... "in the flesh", so to speak... all we have is conjecture, supposition, and anecdotal reference. If you have the ability to truly know someone and understand their complete nature without having ever met or spoken, then more power to you.


Excuse my intrusion into your dialogue with cheri, Treasure, but this statement you made above confounds me. Is it not the basic tenent of all Christianity that the God of Abraham became flesh in Jesus? Isn't that what being a Christian is all about? I mean generally and universally. I suppose there might be some modern sects that believe Jesus was not divine. But haven't they lost the battle? Are they not outlyers? Is it not the meaning of the eucharist that Jesus is God incarnate ~ in the flesh? Just askin'


That is true.  What I was referring to was a more personal revelation.  Yes, Jesus was flesh and walked this earth.  But I didn't know him and I never talked to him.  I can only know him through the words of other who did, and those who translate those words.  It is through my own heart and feelings and faith that I know him as I do.  But until I can stand before him and ask questions, I cannot even begin to say that I understand his nature. 

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Profile   Post #: 299
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:01:58 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline
quote:

in 20 years
Heather won. She bet me $20 that sooner or later you would use the words "in 20 years" in this thread.

The reason it comes across as ageist is because it is almost always accompanied by something along the lines of "you will see things differently and then you'll see how we are right." This time is an exception, one we do appreciate. Thank you for the compliment.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 300
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