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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:02:08 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

How would you differentiate between good and evil if no evil existed?



Hmmm... that'd be a STAR WARS movie -- Darth Vader is clearly teh evul ! ! !

 lol... sorry... couldn't resist.  Carry on.






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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:05:02 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		If these are your current perceptions, then that is your truth. I wish you well along your path, and each step of the way, always ask questions. Without doubt there can be no belief ;).


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

I'm sorry, I just don't see the necessity of it. Love would be just as thrilling without existence of hate, good would be just as beneficial without the existence of bad, and life would be just as wonderful and worth living without the existence of death. None of it would be any less rewarding or deep, or any less in any way in the absence of it's opposite. I just can't see the need for the opposite for something to be just exactly as worthwhile. Equally, I see no need for good to exist for evil to, evil can exist without the existence of good, and it would be just as evil.




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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:06:04 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Neither.


LOL

neither? You mean the other choice is neither choice? Not choosing?

To borrow your words...

I don't want to be rude, but that is just nonsensical.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:06:53 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

That's the point though. With nothing to differentiate from, how would you even know you were feeling love or feeling good?
Because the absence of love is not hate, I don't love you nor do I hate you.  And the absence of good is not evil. If I decide to paint my nails green, that is neither a good act, nor an evil act. (Well depending on what I am wearing of course. )

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:07:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		No you have given an example of the elimination of free will. If there is no choice, and there is only one thing, then there is no free will.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Take your tree climbing example, if the view that it is evil is correct, then if evil didn't exist, people simply wouldn't climb trees or even want to.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:08:40 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I don't consider it a "cop out". It is an acknowledgment of limitation. Until God decides to show himself to us... "in the flesh", so to speak... all we have is conjecture, supposition, and anecdotal reference. If you have the ability to truly know someone and understand their complete nature without having ever met or spoken, then more power to you.


Excuse my intrusion into your dialogue with cheri, Treasure, but this statement you made above confounds me. Is it not the basic tenent of all Christianity that the God of Abraham became flesh in Jesus? Isn't that what being a Christian is all about? I mean generally and universally. I suppose there might be some modern sects that believe Jesus was not divine. But haven't they lost the battle? Are they not outlyers? Is it not the meaning of the eucharist that Jesus is God incarnate ~ in the flesh? Just askin'


That is true.  What I was referring to was a more personal revelation.  Yes, Jesus was flesh and walked this earth.  But I didn't know him and I never talked to him.  I can only know him through the words of other who did, and those who translate those words.  It is through my own heart and feelings and faith that I know him as I do.  But until I can stand before him and ask questions, I cannot even begin to say that I understand his nature. 



Well, if the day ever comes that you do find yourself standing before him I don't imagine you will have a need to ask questions.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:08:41 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
Because the absence of love is not hate, I don't love you nor do I hate you.  And the absence of good is not evil.



+1


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"Obey your Master." Metallica


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Profile   Post #: 307
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:09:24 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		It may not be Abrahamic, but they are some interesting writings: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 308
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:16:52 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

in 20 years
Heather won. She bet me $20 that sooner or later you would use the words "in 20 years" in this thread.

The reason it comes across as ageist is because it is almost always accompanied by something along the lines of "you will see things differently and then you'll see how we are right." This time is an exception, one we do appreciate. Thank you for the compliment.

  The last time Heather said I played the age card, it was when I complimented her, but I did say I would love to talk to her in 20 years, because I suspected her views would change.

The thing is, most of us have been where you are now, and we know that life its self changes how so many things are seen.  Some things remain the same.  When we were your age, we said the same things to older folks that you say to us now.  It is just how shit goes most of the time. 

The fact that it is ok for Hannah to call anyone who has faith every adjective in the world that implies ignorance and wrongness, and none of you call her on that, yet if anyone else even implies that the way you see things will change as you get older, it is seen as an insult to you and somehow implies that you are being spoken down to, well, it saddens me and makes me shake my head.

Good luck on your journey.  It is one helluva fun ride.

edit to quit shaling my head.  wtf is shaling anyhow?


< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 10/1/2011 6:19:10 PM >

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yep

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Profile   Post #: 309
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:26:01 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

perhaps give you some insight that maybe you've not considered before
I find that idea insulting because you haven't offered any insights beyond the common place.
quote:

There are many more monotheistic religions and belief systems that do not involve Jesus, yet hold a similar doctrine concerning God to the one you rail against.
They are wrong too.
quote:

I am missing the connection in what it is about believing that Jesus is Christ has to do with your dissatisfaction with how the world was created.
I have no fundamental dissatisfaction with how the world was created, only with a model of God that is irreconcilable with the way the world was created.
quote:

But I suspect what you should be dissatisfied with is your own limited understanding. 
You are entitled to your opinion, but I honestly don't think it is my understanding that is limited.
quote:

I believe I have aptly demonstrated that is it possible to hold Christian beliefs, yet not suffer the same state of dissonance.
Only if you chose to ignore either several of the major tenets of the religion, or the obvious logical impossibility of those tenets.
quote:

If you wish to believe that I have somehow suspended reason and rational thought in order to reach that peace, that is your prerogative.
I don't know about you, but I would have to, which is all I ever said.

And I take umbrage at your arrogant contention that your inability to logically resolve the the contradictions and impossibilities inherent in your religion's dogma is somehow a result of my inability to understand.

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 310
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:32:03 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

You mean the other choice is neither choice? Not choosing?
No, that's not what I mean at all. I mean neither good nor evil, morally neutral.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:34:11 PM   
SuzeCheri


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From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		In that particular instance, perhaps, but there are rarely only two options available to you in any given situation, right?

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:48:50 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

You mean the other choice is neither choice? Not choosing?
No, that's not what I mean at all. I mean neither good nor evil, morally neutral.



Im afraid I will need examples of a "morally neutral" choice.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 6:59:05 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

The fact that it is ok for Hannah to call anyone who has faith every adjective in the world that implies ignorance and wrongness, and none of you call her on that
The fact is we discuss things face to face. Why would we type it out and post it online when she is right here to talk to? It's a little ridiculous to pass the keyboard back and forth to have an argument with somebody sitting beside you.

Also, I am as close to disagreeing with her on the issue of religion as it gets around here. Suze just thinks religion is silly and has no particular beliefs one way or another, and Heather honestly doesn't care if God exists or not, it's completely irrelevant to her. To her religions are just another thing to learn about, no different than hog butchering or crocodile breeding habits. Like most things, it's just an intellectual exercise to her.
quote:

if anyone else even implies that the way you see things will change as you get older, it is seen as an insult to you and somehow implies that you are being spoken down to
Because it is almost only said when someone disagrees with you and you fail to convince them that you are right, so it comes across as "you're too young to understand", and even when you throw in a "you're smart", it just implies "but not smart enough yet". It is basically the same thing as Awareness' "Shhhh, adults talking", but at least he is up front about it. We are not the only young people who feel that way. If that isn't the way you mean it, then you should consider finding a different way to say what you mean.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 7:01:44 PM   
SuzeCheri


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From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		It would depend on the situation. And if you say you can't conceive of such a thing, then I simply don't believe you.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 7:09:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, no I cannot. Simply put all actions have consequences. Those actions will have either good or bad/evil results.

I cant think of a single course of action or choice anyone can make that doesnt have a consequence.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 7:16:46 PM   
Kaliko


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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Because it is almost only said when someone disagrees with you and you fail to convince them that you are right, so it comes across as "you're too young to understand", and even when you throw in a "you're smart", it just implies "but not smart enough yet". It is basically the same thing as Awareness' "Shhhh, adults talking", but at least he is up front about it. We are not the only young people who feel that way. If that isn't the way you mean it, then you should consider finding a different way to say what you mean.



I find, as I get older, that all those people who told me "You're too young to understand" were absolutely right.


(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 7:17:39 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

And I take umbrage at your arrogant contention that your inability to logically resolve the the contradictions and impossibilities inherent in your religion's dogma is somehow a result of my inability to understand.


My personal religious beliefs have no dogma that is contradictory or impossible.  As I have said, I do not suffer from the same kind of dissonance that you appear to.  That those issues have not been resolved to your satisfaction within a few short posts is not a failing of mine. 

You have presented your perception of the Christian definition of the nature of God and demanded we prove that it is not Christian.  I have given myself as evidence that I am a Christian but do not adhere to your idea of the nature of God.  

You demand proof that other Christians do not adhere to what you believe to be the nature of God.  I can only offer the following links so that you can discover for yourself:

Unitarianism

Soteriology

Predestination in Christianity

Calvinism

Arminianism

Apophatic Theology

Cataphatic Theology

Christian Apologetics

As has been pointed out in this thread, your questioning is not new.  Your apostasy is not new.  Man has pondered and argued these very concepts for centuries.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 10/1/2011 7:34:23 PM >

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 7:26:36 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Because it is almost only said when someone disagrees with you and you fail to convince them that you are right, so it comes across as "you're too young to understand", and even when you throw in a "you're smart", it just implies "but not smart enough yet". It is basically the same thing as Awareness' "Shhhh, adults talking", but at least he is up front about it. We are not the only young people who feel that way. If that isn't the way you mean it, then you should consider finding a different way to say what you mean.



I find, as I get older, that all those people who told me "You're too young to understand" were absolutely right.




Isn't that the truth! 

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 7:44:17 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

You demand proof that other Christians do not adhere to what you believe to be the nature of God. I can only offer the following links so that you can discover for yourself:


Jumping in again. Sorry

With the exception of Unitarianism, which contains a significant departure form current mainstream and fundamentalist Christian thought and Arminiarnium, which seems to contain elements that are not alien to many fundamentalists, most of the others in your list seem to be epistemological rather than doctrinaire. Wonder if i am mistaken here?

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 320
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