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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:03:14 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

Actually, no I cannot. Simply put all actions have consequences. Those actions will have either good or bad/evil results.

I cant think of a single course of action or choice anyone can make that doesnt have a consequence.
Really? REALLY?

Will you go to sleep now, or in ten minutes. Will you have Corn Flakes or Cheerios tomorrow? Will you paint your nails or not? Will you listen to Bach or Brahms?

What exactly are the good or bad/evil consequences of those choices?

I knew you were going to say that, and like I said, I don't believe you. You are lying simply for the sake of furthering your argument. Your points are meaningless, petty, and really quite simple minded, and you keep deliberately misinterpreting my words to twist them to give you yet another angle. I have no interest in continuing a discussion with you, go find somebody else to engage in a meaningless nitpicking competition with.
I am done with you on this thread, goodnight.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:07:11 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You demand proof that other Christians do not adhere to what you believe to be the nature of God. I can only offer the following links so that you can discover for yourself:


Jumping in again. Sorry

With the exception of Unitarianism, which contains a significant departure form current mainstream and fundamentalist Christian thought and Arminiarnium, which seems to contain elements that are not alien to many fundamentalists, most of the others in your list seem to be epistemological rather than doctrinaire. Wonder if i am mistaken here?


No, you're not.  Understanding requires knowledge. 

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:08:26 PM   
SuzeCheri


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quote:

I find, as I get older, that all those people who told me "You're too young to understand" were absolutely right.
That doesn't make it any less insulting to be told that every time you disagree with somebody. She does it so often and so predictably that it should say "Talk to me in 20 years" under her name instead of "Deranged".

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 323
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:11:46 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I don't consider it a "cop out". It is an acknowledgment of limitation. Until God decides to show himself to us... "in the flesh", so to speak... all we have is conjecture, supposition, and anecdotal reference. If you have the ability to truly know someone and understand their complete nature without having ever met or spoken, then more power to you.


Excuse my intrusion into your dialogue with cheri, Treasure, but this statement you made above confounds me. Is it not the basic tenent of all Christianity that the God of Abraham became flesh in Jesus? Isn't that what being a Christian is all about? I mean generally and universally. I suppose there might be some modern sects that believe Jesus was not divine. But haven't they lost the battle? Are they not outlyers? Is it not the meaning of the eucharist that Jesus is God incarnate ~ in the flesh? Just askin'


You do realize that happened thousands of years ago, and no one on the planet today had the experience of seeing Jesus in the flesh, right? What we have is what people thousands of years ago said they saw, and we base our faith on that. But I do believe that Treasure was talking about God showing himself in the flesh to today's man, not what happened in the past.

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:13:41 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I find, as I get older, that all those people who told me "You're too young to understand" were absolutely right.




i find, as modern people are "living" more in a shorter span of time, that this phrase increasingly loses validity. it's become more of a rallying cry for older people who want to maintain some boundary to define their self-ascribed superiority.

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(in reply to Kaliko)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:18:01 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I find, as I get older, that all those people who told me "You're too young to understand" were absolutely right.




i find, as modern people are "living" more in a shorter span of time, that this phrase increasingly loses validity. it's become more of a rallying cry for older people who want to maintain some boundary to define their self-ascribed superiority.


...how old are you?

LOL - just kidding!!!

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 326
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:21:04 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I find, as I get older, that all those people who told me "You're too young to understand" were absolutely right.




i find, as modern people are "living" more in a shorter span of time, that this phrase increasingly loses validity. it's become more of a rallying cry for older people who want to maintain some boundary to define their self-ascribed superiority.


...how old are you?

LOL - just kidding!!!



  I'm glad to know I wasn't the only one.

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 327
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:21:35 PM   
SuzeCheri


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First of all, thank you for the links, I will check them out.
quote:

My personal religious beliefs have no dogma that is contradictory or impossible.
Then your personal religious beliefs are at variance with the teachings of Christianity, just as are mine.

quote:

I have given myself as evidence that I am a Christian but do not adhere to your idea of the nature of God.
Not my idea of the nature of God, but that of the Christian religion. That is the whole point of this thread, that I reject Christianity because I do not share that idea of the nature of God.

quote:

I have given myself as evidence that I am a Christian but do not adhere to your idea of the nature of God.  
Again, not my idea, and if you don't share your religion's idea of the nature of God, then you really aren't that firm an adherent are you? Now, if your church doesn't hold that god is all-knowing and all-powerful, and a loving, caring, and just god, then please tell me which denomination that is, I really would be interested in learning more.

quote:

As has been pointed out in this thread, your questioning is not new.  Your apostasy is not new.  Man has pondered and argued these very concepts for centuries.
I never said it was new, nor does that make it invalid. In fact, if you ask me, the fact that so many wiser and more learned people than me have been pointing out these inconsistencies in Christian doctrine for centuries really only goes to show how real they are.



(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:26:35 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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i hope i never become so jaded that i can laugh off and dismiss someone else's opinion with an emoticon and my own "assurance" that i know so much more because i'm older. 

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"Obey your Master." Metallica


(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 329
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:27:28 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i hope i never become so jaded that i can laugh off and dismiss someone else's opinion with an emoticon and my own "assurance" that i know so much more because i'm older. 



I really was just kidding! I thought it was a funny reply!

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 330
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:29:00 PM   
FirmhandKY


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FR:

... might I suggest that Cherie is grieving, and that this thread is a healthy and necessary part of that process?

Much has been covered, and continuing to post is (IMO) starting to confuse the issue, become circular and may sometimes be perceived as insulting and is perhaps therefore counter-productive? 

Let her deliberate in her own time and in her own way. 

In other words ... are we done yet? 

Firm

PS Perhaps another thread, to address anything that any particular person would wish to discuss in greater detail would be appropriate.  There are currently several other "religion" threads to absorb comments as well.


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Profile   Post #: 331
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:29:21 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

If hate didn't exist, how would you know love? If somethings didn't feel bad, how would you know the difference when things felt good?
I don't want to be rude, but that is just nonsensical.



It isn't nonsensical at all. Because we have to know one to know the other. If you never knew what sadness felt like, you also wouldn't know what happiness felt like. That has nothing at all to do with God, but with basic common sense. Going back to the physical pain reference, if you didn't feel pain from touching the hot stove, how would you know not to touch it?

quote:


quote:

As for death, well if no one ever died, can you imagine how crowded the planet would be?
No, I imagine we'd just wouldn't be doing a lot of reproducing. If we are going to assume a world where there is no death, then why must we assume we would have the same biological drives as we do in a world where death is prevalent.



So then basically, you wouldn't exist, nor would I. Because people from a thousand years ago would have had no need to reproduce. The planet would be filled with a bunch of people who had been here, essentially since the dawn of time.

quote:

For me, I think if I lived that long, I would get bored.
I guess you don't have as much imagination as I do. And again, if we are assuming the absence of death, why must we assume a similar psychological nature?

There is only so much to see in the world. If people never died, instead of the population having infinite possibilities, it would be finite. There would have been a lack of technological and medical advancement. Living forever, of course, there would be no need for medical advancement, but the technological advancement? You seem to be assuming that people a thousand years ago would have eventually invented electricity, automobiles, computers, telephones, etc. Each generation has brought something new to the world, and often, the generation before was quite resistent to the change, thinking it unnecessary.

Or are you going on the idea that this immortality would have been something that occurred later, after we already had all these nifty technologies? I can imagine all kinds of things that Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Edison or Henry Ford would have developed if they had more time in the world, but in theory, they wouldn't have existed because this immortality would have started much sooner.

Also, there would have had to have been some reproduction or we would have stopped with Adam and Eve. So at what point does the reproduction become unnecessary? A hundred people? A million? The problem with your idea is that those born would still have to grow up, unless people were born on this earth as fully grown adults (and that would be horrifically painful births). I don't know if you plan on having children someday, but for most of us who are pushing 50 and above, we are done with the whole child bearing thing, looking forward to watching our children have children, and if we are lucky, our grandchildren have children. Because that is the thing, as children grow into adults, one thing many want is to have a family of their own, to watch their own children grow and develop. How do you reconcile everyone being immortal with those facts?

ETA: to fix quote and font color

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 10/1/2011 8:30:50 PM >

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:34:39 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Even though I am a Christian, I don't believe that a Buddist, Muslim, Jew or whatever is damned because they don't believe as I do. I believe that if people of those faiths follow the teachings of the faith, the basis of all, which is being a good person and not causing undue harm to others, they will reach Heaven, Nirvana or whatever place their faith teaches them exists. Even atheists, who don't believe but are good, kind people who don't cause undue harm will be rewarded as well.
That isn't the teaching of any Christian group I am aware of. Is that the doctrine of your church or your personal take on things?



My church doesn't actually talk about our way being the only "true" way. They don't talk about what I said above either. That is my personal belief based on the idea that all good people do not need to be Christian, and that God isn't going to ignore or damn those who aren't. I also don't recall anything in the bible stating that Jews, Hindus, Buddists or whatever were damned to hell. Simply that one needs to believe in God.


(in reply to SuzeCheri)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:35:26 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i hope i never become so jaded that i can laugh off and dismiss someone else's opinion with an emoticon and my own "assurance" that i know so much more because i'm older. 


No one has dismissed your opinion. 

Nor has anyone accused you of simply trying to assert superiority.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I really was just kidding! I thought it was a funny reply!


It was. 

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 334
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:35:39 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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you're also assuming that people WOULDN'T invent those things just because there weren't so many successive generations. you have no way to know that. it's perfectly possible that immortality would remove the need to worry so much about immediate success, leaving legacies, etc. and would instead foster a new kind of curiosity. who's to say we wouldn't be MORE advanced, not less, if time spent making us live longer was instead devoted to making us live better? or just to interesting passing fancies that could be given more time because time wasn't an issue anymore? 

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Profile   Post #: 335
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:35:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Really? REALLY?


Really

quote:

I knew you were going to say that, and like I said, I don't believe you. You are lying simply for the sake of furthering your argument.


So I am lying about having diabetes? I am lying about the effects of food on that disorder? I am lying that foot care is imperative to the disease? Exactly what am I lying about?

quote:

Will you have Corn Flakes or Cheerios tomorrow?


Cheerios is better with my diabetes than Corn Flakes, so, yes, it makes a different.

quote:

Will you go to sleep now, or in ten minutes..


Sleep is also important to my health... so.. yes... this could have good or bad outcomes as well. If I had gone to sleep ten minutes earlier, I would not have taken my insulin shot.

quote:

Will you paint your nails or not?


Again, diabetes.... hard to determine injury beneath a layer of nail polish.

quote:

Will you listen to Bach or Brahms?


As depression has set in, both of those choices, depending on the song, could actually be harmful.

So, now, show me where I am wrong?

quote:

I have no interest in continuing a discussion with you, go find somebody else to engage in a meaningless nitpicking competition with. I am done with you on this thread, goodnight.


Hardly nit picking. Nor is it my fault you cant hold your own in a debate.



< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/1/2011 8:43:01 PM >


_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:37:42 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i find, as modern people are "living" more in a shorter span of time, that this phrase increasingly loses validity. it's become more of a rallying cry for older people who want to maintain some boundary to define their self-ascribed superiority.

There is no "superiority" claim in the simple observation that we learn from experience. I don't know anyone over the age of 40 or so who, if offered the chance to wake up tomorrow 10 or 20 year younger, wouldn't say "Sure, if I can do it knowing what I know now."

K.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:39:03 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

That's the point though. With nothing to differentiate from, how would you even know you were feeling love or feeling good?
Because the absence of love is not hate, I don't love you nor do I hate you.  And the absence of good is not evil. If I decide to paint my nails green, that is neither a good act, nor an evil act. (Well depending on what I am wearing of course. )



Ok, I agree the absence of love is not hate. Neither is the absence of happiness necessarily happiness, it is ambivilence. It is lacking a full range of emotions. Hence the frontal lobotomy reference. It creates a lack of extremes.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 338
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:45:20 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

... Now, if your church doesn't hold that god is all-knowing and all-powerful, and a loving, caring, and just god, then please tell me which denomination that is, I really would be interested in learning more.


You really don't have to belong to a denomination to be a Christian.  And belonging to a particular denomination doesn't mean you have to embrace each and every tenet of its dogma. 

Truly... the world will not end if you do not. 

Well, maybe if you choose Catholicism, it will...  

But if you do check out the links, you'll be exposed to some different options.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 10/1/2011 8:46:52 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 339
RE: I renounce Christianity - 10/1/2011 8:46:48 PM   
tweakabelle


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It seems to me that the fundamental claim under discussion here is: The existence of evil is incompatible with the Christian version of an omnipotent God of pure goodness who created the world and everything in it.

To me it's a fairly simple claim to test:
If evil exists, then someone or something is responsible for its existence. The only two possibilities I see are (1) God created/is responsible for the existence of evil; or (2) something other than God created/is responsible for the existence of evil:
(1) If God created everything, then that God must have created/be responsible for the existence of evil too. A god of pure goodness could not create evil. Therefore the claim is valid.
(2) If evil exists and God didn't create/isn't responsible for it, then that God cannot be the creator of all things. Therefore the claim is valid.

No matter which way it's cut, the existence of evil is incompatible with the standard Christian version of God.





< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/1/2011 8:53:35 PM >


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