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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 2:22:12 PM

StrangerThan

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Actually, God didn't want all those horrible things in the world. They exist for a simple reason that has plagued humanity forever, that being the inability to follow simple directions.

Shoulda been a fast reply because that's all I have time for.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 9/30/2011 2:27:53 PM >

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Post #: 141

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 2:31:59 PM

SuzeCheri

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He made the world such that if we followed directions everything would be wonderful and it would be painful, etc. if we didn't. But he knew before he even began to make the world that we wouldn't follow directions. He made the world the way it is knowing how it would end up, so, in effect he chose this result.

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Post #: 142

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 2:39:46 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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I did not write the Bible, so I don't see "God" as just or loving or in the least bit kind. God *IS* -- so remove your preconceived ideas of good and evil. They are seriously getting in the way.

God does not want, or not want, God does not cause to happen, or not cause to happen, God *IS* without any of your preconceived notions of morality or judgement.

Please attempt to think of morality in human terms only, please.

Please attempt to think of judgement in human terms only, please.

Stop attributing to God, what is not God's. God is love, God is goodness, God is everything that is right in the world.

So who do you give all that evil? Satan, of course. To believe in God is to believe in Satan.

Two sides of the same coin.

Think (please) about that statement.

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Post #: 143

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 2:56:29 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

In LadyPact's "A personal struggle" thread, I relayed how I have recently come to renounce Christianity. Oddly this seemed of enough interest to some people for them to sidetrack her thread to discuss and dispute my apostasy, despite my request that they not do so on her thread.
I don't know if God exists, but if He does, He is certainly not the kind and caring God we are taught about. Any God who could allow what happened to Valerie is not a God I could respect, let alone worship.

I hope you can find some answer that brings you peace, LadyP, and I'm certainly not going to argue with or urge you to follow my path, it is a painful and unpleasant process. That being said, I really do advise you to think long and carefully about the teachings of your church. Ask yourself honestly if the God your church or faith preaches is one who deserves your worship. I suspect that you will find He doesn't.

C.

Jesus-
Awwwww Don't go ... Here ... how about a magic trick?

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Post #: 144

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 3:07:49 PM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

I'll echo several here and say, you've made the only smart choice possible,

We all make choices and have beliefs due to our own experiences. To say that Cheri's is the only smart choice is as bad as the few who have tried to get her to believe blindly.

There is no one true way in life. I am happy that you found your answers, but please, do not try to make it appear that anyone who disagrees with your beliefs somehow made an decision that was less than smart..

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Post #: 145

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 3:10:33 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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(deleted)

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 9/30/2011 3:22:15 PM >

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Post #: 146

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 3:20:16 PM

samboct

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Cheri

One of the best explanations of the origin of Christianity can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Feuerbach

Note- Feuerbach was an atheist.

Sam

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 147

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 3:21:37 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

I have tried about 10 times to reply to what has been said, but it just ends up being a repetition of what I said before. I have little or nothing to add at this point, it's been a long 9 hours since I last posted. Maybe I will think of something new to add later, but right now I'm tired and there just doesn't seem to be anything said here that I haven't already responded to.

I have asked several times why there is evil in the world and the only people who have attempted an answer say they don't know. Well I do. I know why.

Because God wants it that way. He wants wars, disease, suffering, murders, rapes, cancers, and all the other horrible things that exist. He even wants love to be a source of pain.

How do I know he wants it this way?

Because he made it this way.

Think about that for a while and then tell me how that goes along with a kind, loving, just god?

Why do you demand any coherent answer in response to a question from such incoherent thought process?

The thread title claims renunciation of Christianity, but everything following is blaming everything on God, which apparently you actually still believe in. Hard to let go of such a convenient punching bag, I imagine.

In any event, religion is man-made, not God-made. If 'blame' is required, at least ascribe it to the relevant party.

To the question of "why is there evil?," it could be pointed out that the entire concept of "evil" is a religious product to begin with. In fact, that has already been pointed out on several occasions.

The least you can do, for your own emotional well being, is to disabuse yourself of the notion propagated by some small sector of Christianity that "God" is omnipotent and/or omniscient, aside from not having invented the HUMAN concept of 'evil!' to begin with.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/30/2011 3:39:28 PM >

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Post #: 148

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 3:24:13 PM

JstAnotherSub

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Cheri, murder sucks. I had an aunt beaten to death and a friends son was shot and killed by a guy driving down the road who wanted to see what it felt like to shoot someone.

I have lost and regained my faith many times in my life. I am pretty sure that I am now where I will remain in what my ideas of faith and belief are, but who knows.

Good luck on your journey. There are things that happen that we will never understand the reasons for, but, we, the survivors, have to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

My only advice to you would be never forget that there is much more good around us than there is bad. Look for it every time you can.

ETA something a friend told me, as we stood by the casket of her 25 yo son who had died from testicular cancer.

"I am so pissed off at God, I think I may lose my faith in everything I have ever believed in, but, if he is the God I think he is, I hope he can take me being angry and cursing him, and maybe he will lead me back to where I was before this."

< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 9/30/2011 3:29:49 PM >

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Post #: 149

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 3:48:45 PM

SuzeCheri

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quote:

Stop attributing to God, what is not God's. God is love, God is goodness, God is everything that is right in the world.

So who do you give all that evil? Satan, of course. To believe in God is to believe in Satan.

Why, if God is love and goodness and everything that is right in the world, did he create Satan?

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 150

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:03:04 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Stop attributing to God, what is not God's. God is love, God is goodness, God is everything that is right in the world.

So who do you give all that evil? Satan, of course. To believe in God is to believe in Satan.

Why, if God is love and goodness and everything that is right in the world, did he create Satan?

Not to mention, several Satans at a time!

"Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice, oh my!"

I suppose I cannot depart completely from you on the "evil" thing, but hey, I tried.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

Post #: 151

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:09:32 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Thank you LadyP, I do appreciate all you've said.One thing in particular stood out, this part.
quote:

My best guess is that it really is all part of some kind of plan that hopefully something good will come out of it in the end.

This is an important point really, if it is part of a plan, then that means God wanted it to happen, and that is incompatible with the doctrine of free will. And without the excuse of free will, the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of God, which doesn't mesh with being good and just.

I did not read this entire thread, I stopped at this point.

First let me congratulate you. Not for choosing not to believe, but for making the statment in a way that doesn't insult those who do. That alone will go a long way in helping you find the answers that you seek.

Originally, God was portrayed as full of wrath. Remember all those "fire and brimstone" sermons (or reading about them)? Then he was omnipotent, all knowing, all seeing and all controlling. These days, it is God is all good. I can see how it can be confusing and frustrating.

I don't know the details of your friend's death. When confronted with such things, a great number of people go through the whole "how could God allow this to happen?" thing. You've been taught that God is all good and all powerful, so why didn't he stop it?

Then there is the whole conflicting idea of free will. If we have free will, then God isn't all powerful, right? You were taught that God created man in his own image. So maybe, God is the king of free will. It is very hard to understand why he would let your friend be killed and bring so much pain to you and those who loved her.

Using childrena analogies just seems to work best. As a kid, I'm sure there were lots of things your parents told you to do and you didn't understand why. "Don't touch the stove," "Why?" "Because you will burn yourself." Very easy, even for most two year olds to grasp, right? But think of the things your parents told you when you were say eight years old and you really didn't understand. Now, you are grown up and maybe find yourself going "wow, my parents were actually right!" Granted this tends to happen lots more after we have kids of our own, and if it hasn't happened yet, trust me it will someday. Oops, there is that "just believe me" thing, yet I bet it doesn't have the same sting, does it?

My point, and some others is that sadly, sometimes horrible things happen to allow people to learn from it. Why? Because humans tend to be dense creatures who sometimes need a big smack upside the head to get something through to them. I'm not saying this person is you. It could be anyone involved, it could just be just a bystander. The event may have led them to change their life in some way for the better.

I know that is of little comfort to you. The thing is that there isn't always an answer. Even without God, we don't always know why a child gets a terminal illness or an innocent, young person dies. I'm not saying "just believe," I'm saying that while you don't know what the answer is, that doesn't mean there isn't one. You may find out the answer tomorrow, twenty years from now or never. Faith is what helps us to believe some things aren't just senseless.

From the standpoint of someone who does believe....I have faith that there was a reason and that while you are angry and frustrated and sad right now, even the questions that this tragedy has brought you will someday lead you on a path you probably wouldn't have taken had this not happened, and I believe that path will be for the better.

Nope, no desire to change your mind, but hope and prayers that you will find peace about all of this soon, regardless of how that peace comes to you.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

Post #: 152

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 4:33:35 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

Not to mention, several Satans at a time!

They learned that from having a clairvoyant viewing of the current session of congress and view multiple satans as a win/win efficiency kinda thing. If you ever noticed... Only God and Santa can get around the way they do.

No Charge For The Theological-Scientific Consultation this time, because Fargle is spiritually on the throne right now

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Post #: 153

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:40:12 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

...I have asked several times why there is evil in the world and the only people who have attempted an answer say they don't know. Well I do. I know why.

Because God wants it that way. He wants wars, disease, suffering, murders, rapes, cancers, and all the other horrible things that exist. He even wants love to be a source of pain.

How do I know he wants it this way?

Because he made it this way.

Think about that for a while and then tell me how that goes along with a kind, loving, just god?

I think I gave a pretty decent explanation for why evil exists.

God didn't make the world the way it is. We did. What God did was create us and gave us the choice to make the world we wanted.

You don't think it hurts him to see the choices we've made? You ask why he doesn't fix it?

Well... He did once. He wiped out just about everyone and everything in this world at one time out of anger and disappointment. Then He promised never to do it again.

God is kind, loving and just. But He can also be many other things that don't seem to go along with kind, loving and just... the same as man can have many faces to his personality. Why would God be limited to being one-dimensional, when man is not?

Many believe that God creating man in His own image means that we look like him. I don't. I believe it means that God made us like Him in that we have the capacity to think and learn and understand... and we can love and hate and be happy and sad, all at the same time.

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Post #: 154

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:41:50 PM

FatDomDaddy

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Bye

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Post #: 155

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:53:12 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

God didn't make the world the way it is. We did. What God did was create us and gave us the choice to make the world we wanted.

What Christian sect teaches that? I've never heard that one before.

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Post #: 156

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 5:57:31 PM

tazzygirl

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I have heard that often...

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Post #: 157

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 6:02:02 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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Gee, that's helpful. What variants of Christianity teach that?

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Post #: 158

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 6:02:36 PM

MasterSlaveLA

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For those who believe, no explaination is necessary. For those who do not, no explaination is possible.

(Note to self, scratch Cheri off the Christmas shopping list.

)

< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 9/30/2011 6:54:00 PM >

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Post #: 159

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 6:11:37 PM

Edwynn

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FR

Then again, listen to some Brahms solo piano pieces, most anything by Debussy, or the last 2 minutes of Ravel's Ma mère l'oy (Mother Goose Suite, for Englishers), and tell us how evil the world is after that.

PS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXHq4NZ1zPU

I disagree with his treatment of the tempo in the pre-coda segment, but otherwise ...

These young conductors are kicking major arse here. Actually implementing things that I could not convince my music theory teachers of years ago. Maybe its because they have talent and I only had strong, if only semi-coherent ideas about it.

PPS

The video above was from a rehearsal, as to explain why the seats were not full.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/30/2011 7:04:36 PM >

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