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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:34:14 PM   
SuzeCheri


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Joined: 7/19/2011
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quote:

To say that God created evil is a logical fallacy.
He is the creator, he created everything, if it exists, he created it. there is no logical fallacy, the fallacy is in your attempt to absolve him of the consequences of his choices. You cannot reconcile evil with omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolance and perfect justice. It cannot be done.

Just as you said:
quote:

God cannot be both, as this is a contradiction.
Which is what I have been saying.

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:38:35 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

So essentially, rather than god creating man, man actually created god. All religions employ smoke and mirrors to obscure this detail of their origin.

Well that's putting a rather pejorative spin on it. To say that man creates God is a figure of speech. Man creates an image of God. In Feuerbach's view, man is unaware of his true nature and projects it upon the universe. God is, so to speak, the outward projection of our own deepest human nature.

Too, this is not a pathological projection of the rejected parts of oneself, though they may get mixed up in it. It is, again, simply a consequence of man's unawareness of his true nature. And it is a profoundly uplifting view of the deepest truth of our nature, for "a God who is not benevolent, not just, not wise," he says, "is no God."

Man meets himself first outside himself. And it is in this that man's need for religion arises: To know himself. To know his true nature. "If man is to find contentment in God," Feuerbach says, "he must find himself in God" (and find God in himself). It is not a view limited to Feuerbach.

And it ain't bad for an Atheist either, eh?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/30/2011 9:59:37 PM >

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:39:28 PM   
SuzeCheri


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Joined: 7/19/2011
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quote:

Can you imagine the loss to our humanity if it were inconceivable that we might face or suffer some tragedy in life... if it was beyond our comprehension for people to join together to raise money for medical research, or rebuild cities after an earthquake, or cry together over the destruction of some natural wonder?
No, I can't. because that is only the way it is because god chose to make it that way. Suffering is only intrinsic to our nature because god chose to make it so. Can you not see the real issue here. God wanted us to suffer, otherwise, he wouldn't have created things the way he did.



< Message edited by SuzeCheri -- 9/30/2011 9:40:37 PM >

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:41:21 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I was never taught that god was all good and love. I was taught that he created everything..including bad people, including destruction, including fallen angels, etc....and I'm ok with that. I was taught we all have consequences and that God isn't going to welcome us all with open arms. Instead for those who do not follow through with his rules and commandments will be sent to "Hell" which is not the fire and brimstone but a distancing from his welcome arms and you get to make that choice in your life..follow the rules and be welcomed home or don't and stay where you are.

ETA: as for suffering...it makes us grow as human beings. It makes us not take what we have for granted. It teaches us that there's more to life to live for. It makes us who we are. It's one of God's ways of teaching us to strive.



< Message edited by littlewonder -- 9/30/2011 9:43:08 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:43:54 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		But you don't actually make the choice to follow the rules or not.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:45:48 PM   
SuzeCheri


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Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
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quote:

ETA: as for suffering...it makes us grow as human beings. It makes us not take what we have for granted. It teaches us that there's more to life to live for. It makes us who we are. It's one of God's ways of teaching us to strive.
He can do anything, why didn't he chose to teach us all that through joy and pleasure?

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:49:50 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Cheri, Believe it or not I had a very long post typed up trying to answer many of your questions. But after having read this very long thread I have a feeling you miight be getting tired of not hearing direct answers. I will just try to answer what seems to be the most important question you asked....


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri



Why does evil exist?



In askng this question your brought up Hitler. What good came of a man so evil? If I can give my opinion on this I would have to say the good that came of this was that for one brief shining moment a large part of the world joined together to say No, we will not allow this to continue. It does not matter who fought. When they joined the fight. Or why they joined. It only matters that in the end the evil was stoped. To quote someone a lot smarter than I am "Those who do not learn from their past are doomed to repeat it" Well to learn from a past, from our mistakes, we must first make those mistakes.

I understand why you asked the question and it took me many years of asking the same question before I understood the answer. I really believe the question you want answered is why did "god" allow this to happen to you, to those you love, to those that loved your friend. And again this is only my opinion there is a very good chance I am wrong but I do hope that I am not. In almost every religion people are taught that "god" allows bad things to happen to test them <this seems like a cop out to me so I will say it the way I see it. "God" allows bad things to happen so that we can learn from them. If everyone were the beautiful loving creature that you seem to be than no one would need to learn anything, but sadly not everyone is like you. Some people have to learn in a painful way that things need to be changed. This is going to come off as so a play for you to rejoin your faith but I swear it is not(I am a pagan myself) Have you stoped to think that perhaps "god" is demanding something of you? What happened to your friend is horrid and unfair and wrong, but it happens to many young women your age everyday. Maybe by it happening to someone so close to you it will force you to stand up and fight against it. And in doing so you might save the lives of many others. If you need an example of how something very bad can happen and it can lead to something very good the first thing that pops into my mind is megan's law. An innocent child died at the hands on a monster before someone decided that something needed to be done. Was it right that she died...no. Was it a show of love on "gods" part...no. In the end has it helped to protect many other children that might have also died at the hands of monsters....yes. I'm not saying you should run out and do anything. Deal with your grief. At the moment it is the best you can do.

Having said all that(sorry it was so long) I would also like to say congradulations. Not on giving up your faith in christianity, but in deciding to make your scoop of knowledge larger than it was before. Study everything you can. Learn everything you can retain. Question everything that bothers you, and then question the things that don't. In the end believe only what your heart drives you to. I wish you the very best in your journey.



_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:16:22 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

"God" allows bad things to happen so that we can learn from them.


Thinking about a bunch of children locked in a Church, asking God for him, while the interamawhe come to assassinate them all with machetes.
This truly happened. You can see the photos in internet. The stains of blood and pieces of brains still stained the altar.
I guess before they died, those children truly learned something: "God is an a*****e". That would support your point.
I may consider the price to pay a litte wee to high for a useless lesson, but of course this is only my subjective opinion.
So, thanks for pointing it out.
Some good coming from it? Well, the building could later be used for civil purposes. Again, it is a matter of cost / benefit in an equation where IMSO no possible benefit justifies the horrid cost paid instead of finding an easier f******g way to teach the same or produce the same effect. But yes, yes, my opinion only, respicio me, hominem me memento.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 9/30/2011 10:24:26 PM >

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:24:00 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		First of all, thank you for the well wishes and the encouragement. I am really quite excited at the prospect.
quote:

"God" allows bad things to happen so that we can learn from them.

In other words, evil exists because God wants it to exist. Bad things happen because God wants them to.

< Message edited by SuzeCheri -- 9/30/2011 10:25:34 PM >

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:31:16 PM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

To say that God created evil is a logical fallacy.
He is the creator, he created everything, if it exists, he created it. there is no logical fallacy, the fallacy is in your attempt to absolve him of the consequences of his choices. You cannot reconcile evil with omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolance and perfect justice. It cannot be done.

Just as you said:
quote:

God cannot be both, as this is a contradiction.
Which is what I have been saying.



What I was pointing out, is that God if you so believe in such a thing, created all the tangibles of the world. It is the behaviors of mankind and the labels that are placed upon them that are created by mankind. God did not create music, or art, or love. God did not create jealousy, or any of the other emotions and intangibles the world over. God created the universe, and placed humanity within it, and then gave a set of guidelines within wich to exist in it. The rest, according to the Bible, is up to mankind. Whether or not you choose to accept that as reality or illusion is entirely up to each individual to make.

_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:31:17 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I'm too strung out on Benadryl tonight to really give a thought out response but this article is pretty much how I feel about the whole omnipotence thing

http://www.theologyinpencil.com/if-god-is-omnipotent-and-evil-happens-is-he-therefore-malevolent


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:34:10 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endivius
God created the universe, and placed humanity within it, and then gave a set of guidelines within wich to exist in it. The rest, according to the Bible, is up to mankind.
I am sorry but this is plain wrong. Yahweh in the Bible messes up with mankind constantly, notably including the total genocide of everybody on Earth but a single family, but also including many other cases. So - what you are telling is absolutely not what the Bible says. You can believe it, of course, but it is not the Yahweh, the God of the Biblie. Best regards.

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:47:31 PM   
Endivius


Posts: 1238
Joined: 8/22/2011
Status: offline 		You make my point for me. I bet you'll have to spend a few minutes thinking about it to figure out how.

_____________________________

Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:51:10 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline 		I'd like to know where in the Bible it says that.

(in reply to Endivius)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 10:54:38 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

"God" allows bad things to happen so that we can learn from them.


Thinking about a bunch of children locked in a Church, asking God for him, while the interamawhe come to assassinate them all with machetes.
This truly happened. You can see the photos in internet. The stains of blood and pieces of brains still stained the altar.
I guess before they died, those children truly learned something: "God is an a*****e". That would support your point.
I may consider the price to pay a litte wee to high for a useless lesson, but of course this is only my subjective opinion.
So, thanks for pointing it out.
Some good coming from it? Well, the building could later be used for civil purposes. Again, it is a matter of cost / benefit in an equation where IMSO no possible benefit justifies the horrid cost paid instead of finding an easier f******g way to teach the same or produce the same effect. But yes, yes, my opinion only, respicio me, hominem me memento.



Was it "God" who took the machete to those kid's heads, or humans?


"God" never killed anybody, in fact, but what a convenience it is to lay blame for everything you don't like on "God," even that being a human construct (though spiritual understanding of the world was in place from the start, and still in place).



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/30/2011 10:59:01 PM >

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 11:00:46 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

She was referring to the existence of pain, suffering, disease, and so on, as well as crimes.



1.  As has already been established, "crime" is clearly against God's laws (that whole Thou shalt not kill/steal" thing).

2.  What is the source of said "pain, suffering, disease, and so on" -- pain for the loss of a loved one?  That's normal... it's called having emotions.  As to "disease", from what... eating shitty, living shitty, or ???

quote:

Surely you aren't claiming that diseases, earthquakes, typhoons, house fires, pain and emotional suffering in the face of the death of a loved one are all a result of choice, are you?

 
1.  Addressed "disease" above... from what?  Eating shitty? Living shitty? (i.e., choice)
 
2.  Earthquakes... show me where God stated, "Thou shall build thy home near the San Andreas Fault" (i.e., choice)
 
3.  Typhoon... show mere where God state, "Thou shall buiild thy home in typhoon areas". (i.e., choice)
 
4.  House fires... likely faulty wiring by someone who didn't care (i.e., violates the whole, "Do unto others as you would have them to unto you" thing).  (i.e., choice)
 
5.  Emotional suffering (from the loss of a loved one)... humans have emotions, yet still... some "suffer" from loss, some don't.  Some experience loss and move on with life, where others can't -- but choose not to seek/receive help in coping, where others do. (i.e., choice)

quote:
And with murder, rape and/or theft, what became of the victim's free will?

 
The "victim" had a choice (free will) not to go into a shitty neighborhood at midnight, or hang-out with gang-bangers, or not to get on the freeway at rush hour, or live in an earthquake area, or not to juggle a chain saw, or a million other things.

If you and yours want to blame God for everything from typhoons (nature) to stubbing your toe (stupidity), then go ahead -- that, to me, is the epitome of both (i) faulty logic, and (ii) a failure to accept responsiblity for one's own choices in life, be they good, bad, or otherwise.  Life happens... planned things happen... accidents happen... good things happen... bad things happen.  It's called life.  Some CHOOSE to live it without blame, where others CHOOSE to live it with blame -- be that blame directed towards God, people, or the dog next door.

So you know, I could honestly care less if you or anyone else believes in God or not... you asked a question, I answered.  Accept it, reject it, do nothing with it.  It matters not... I've seen God's work in my life (as I made a CHOICE to believe), where you clearly haven't in your own, so believe (or don't believe) as you wish -- because once again, "For those who believe, no explaination is necessary. For those who do not, no explaination is possible."  I have faith, you don't... and it doesn't matter either way.





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 9/30/2011 11:26:16 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 11:10:20 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline 		 
Chose to elect people who STEAL half a billion dollars from millions (Obama/Solyndra), then hypocritically defend the thieves while then whining about the corrupt corporations. 



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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 11:19:06 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

God created an angel... that angel fell from grace -- that "fallen angel" is Satan. God gives us CHOICE... Satan made a choice...


Why? Why did God create that angel knowing he would fall from grace and become Satan? He knew it would happen...



Oh?!!  And your proof God "knew" this is???  We all have a CHOICE, as did Satan.

Sorry for your loss, but you're not the first... certainly won't be the last... and we've ALL had losses in our lives.  You wanna hate/blame God, Christianity, Islam, or a purple pumpkin for the world's ills, that's your CHOICE -- I choose otherwise. 



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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 11:21:36 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		For the most part yes. But it is more than likely that "god" does not see them as evil, only we do. Yep I know that sucks as an answer but honestly I totally gave up on the bible when I read the new testiment. I understood the old one. I understood why god would be angry, vengeful, even hate mankind. But as I said before I am a pagan and the "god/dess" I follow(if you even want to call it that) gets a kick out of slapping people in the face when they don't pay attention to things she is trying to tell them.

< Message edited by MissImmortalPain -- 9/30/2011 11:33:15 PM >

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 11:23:54 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

But you don't actually make the choice to follow the rules or not.



Uhh... yeah, you do... note that some lie, cheat, steal, muder, etc., where others do not.




< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 9/30/2011 11:28:28 PM >

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Profile   Post #: 200
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