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RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 6:14:28 PM

MasterSlaveLA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Why, if God is love and goodness and everything that is right in the world, did he create Satan?

God created an angel... that angel fell from grace -- that "fallen angel" is Satan. God gives us CHOICE... Satan made a choice... you have made a choice... I have made a choice. Life is about choices... I choose to believe.

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It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

Post #: 161

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 6:58:42 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

God didn't make the world the way it is. We did. What God did was create us and gave us the choice to make the world we wanted.

What Christian sect teaches that? I've never heard that one before.

I'm not sure I'm familiar with any Christian "sect", but I did grow up in the Southern Baptist denomination. As I mentioned in my first post, what I grew up learning didn't exactly resonate with me. However, it (the Southern Baptist education) was the basis for my own spiritual search.

What I will say is that during my search I did discover that what you've quoted above, I believe is pretty much contained in each of the Christian denominations. I do feel it really is one of the basic foundations for Christianity. However, it is often lost in religious politics, human frailty, and archaic language. I find that a pity.

The message is there, though. It is called "free will". Truly understanding it can be hard.

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 9/30/2011 7:00:38 PM >

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 162

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 7:09:14 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

I'm not sure I'm familiar with any Christian "sect",

Well they are "sects" that is the meaning of the word <A subdivision of a larger religious group>, sorry if you don't like the word, but it is the correct word.

quote:

I do feel it really is one of the basic foundations for Christianity.

And none of us has ever heard it put that way in any of the Churches we were raised in <Catholic, Presbyterian x 2, and Anglican>, or seen it in any Christian theology or tract or anything. It's a rather free and easy paraphrasing of the doctrine of Free Will wouldn't you say? To the point of completely misconstruing it.

< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 9/30/2011 7:11:12 PM >

(in reply to TreasureKY)

Post #: 163

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 7:34:06 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

One of the best explanations of the origin of Christianity can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Feuerbach

Note- Feuerbach was an atheist.

From a fast reading, I'd say more than just Christianity... I thought he was doing pretty good there, until he got to Part 2.

K.

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 164

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 7:53:20 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

I do feel it really is one of the basic foundations for Christianity.

And none of us has ever heard it put that way in any of the Churches we were raised in <Catholic, Presbyterian x 2, and Anglican>, or seen it in any Christian theology or tract or anything. It's a rather free and easy paraphrasing of the doctrine of Free Will wouldn't you say? To the point of completely misconstruing it.

You may have never heard it put that way, but it really is that simple.

Tell me... in all the denominations you mention, do any not teach from the book of Genesis? Do any not teach of Adam and Eve and their "fall from grace"?

I'm going to assume you are familiar with the story. I'm also going to analogize it into terms that perhaps will make it more understandable.

Adam and Eve were God's first "children". He brought them into this world... at that time a perfect world. But He did not want automatons... children incapable of independent thought, reasoning, and understanding, who only behave as he dictated. He wanted them to have free will. A choice. He hoped they would follow His guidance and flourish in the perfect world He provided, but without temptation (the Tree of Knowledge or Life... the apple tree), they would have had no choice and no opportunity to exercise free will.

What possible real choice is there if the only options you are given are guaranteed success? How do you recognize the positive and good, when there is no negative and evil? How do you enjoy the outcome of overcoming adversity, the pride of accomplishment against difficult odds, the joy of success, if there is no possibility of failure?

What real choice is there when you are given only one?

For man to have true free will, he must have the option of full knowledge and negative consequences. He cannot fully understand the joy of life if there is no death.

So God made us in His own image... with the capacity to learn and grow and understand... and with free will. As any parent wishes his child would forever stay innocent and carefree, we understand that with growth and knowledge comes some unpleasant and often difficult experiences. As the controlling entity of our children, we could isolate them and protect them from all outside influences that might "corrupt" them, but we would be denying them the experience of a full life.

In the same way that we provide a nurturing environment and instruct our children on how to avoid some of the more unpleasant experiences in life... with the hope that they will grow to make wise decisions... we understand that for them to be fully functioning adults, they must be free to make mistakes.

In similar respect, God could interfere with us... remove all evil from the world... take away our free will to make mistakes... abolish all opportunities for harm. But what kind of life would we have in the end? Pleasant, most assuredly. But distorted... like that child raised in a bubble and allowed no freedom.

When man (Adam and Eve) exercised that free will to go against God's wishes, they were like the 18 year old who declares that he is now an adult. At that point, God was the parent who finally let go and allowed us to be adults... living our lives, free to make mistakes. If the Bible is accurate about the intervention and more direct communication that God appears to have had with the world in its infancy, I see that as similar to the parent who occasionally has to step into his child's early adulthood to advise or lecture or rescue. As man grew older, less intervention was required. We're now the middle age adult who simply visits our parent every now and again when we have the time or want to. We no longer need an active parent. We may even be reaching the point where we are ready to let go and let our parent pass away in peace, only to have memories... good and bad.

I know it is easy to blame God for allowing bad things to happen. To wonder why He does not intervene to save good people. To believe He is uncaring for what goes on in this world. But really, it is our world. The world of our own making. Bad things happen to good people, just as good things happen to bad people. They aren't God's will. We aren't being "punished" for making bad choices, but we do have to live with the consequences of having free will. As I said, it is not just our own choices we have to live with, but the choices of every other person on this earth now, and who came before us.

For Him to take an active role in our lives, we would have to relinquish our free will and give back to him this world. Is that what you would want?

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 165

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 7:56:39 PM

MasterSlaveLA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

God didn't make the world the way it is. We did. What God did was create us and gave us the choice to make the world we wanted.

What Christian sect teaches that?

Every "sect" does.

God/Bible: "Thou shalt not kill" (it's actually "commit murder", not "kill")

People: Choose to commit murder anyway (free will/choice)

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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Post #: 166

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:17:42 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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Not the same thing at all. She was referring to the existence of pain, suffering, disease, and so on, as well as crimes. Surely you aren't claiming that diseases, earthquakes, typhoons, house fires, pain and emotional suffering in the face of the death of a loved one are all a result of choice, are you? And with murder, rape and/or theft, what became of the victim's free will? Your position has faulty internal logic as it only applies to a small subsection of the phenomenon, and imperfectly at that.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 167

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:18:00 PM

Edwynn

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C: Chose to elect people to kill others by tens of thousands, go to church on Sunday.

All good.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 168

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:23:12 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Actually Jehovah created it all:

Isaiah 45:7 - forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

This is the Darby Translation, which is a more accurate translation than most. Now though it is created, that does not mean the maker is held accountable for those that use the creations. Life is, and that is where God's action leave off. From then on, it is all about our choices.

There is no Christianity that I have found within any mainstream religion. As someone has pointed out, there is Paulism, meaning that Paul twisted and used much of what was left behind from the legends of "The Christ". There was much blending and mixing of things, so that in the end the creation was a tool with a purpose, and that purpose would live on long after Paul had put it in motion.

Do not blame "God" for anything more than the creation of everything. If you love, then you must accept there will be hate. My studies finally led me to a more Deist/Taoist approach to things.

I do hope you find your answers some day.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

Post #: 169

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:25:54 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Surely you aren't claiming that diseases, earthquakes, typhoons, house fires, pain and emotional suffering in the face of the death of a loved one are all a result of choice, are you?

That is what the OP is claiming. God's choice, so claimed. It might work if you still believe in that.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 170

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:25:58 PM

Endivius

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The problem with religeon is the blind obediance to it. The idea that a supreme being created all there is, and all that we know appeals to the masses. It is simpler to say God made the universe and all the atoms in between. Morality has nothing to do with God. That is a limitation placed on man by religeon and society. God did not create good or evil. Man created these labels. An evil deed to one is an act of good to another.

Consider euthanising a loved one who is in agony. A person could beg for death, and out of an act of love and compassion, one could kill them to free them of thier suffering. There are many examples to be given, at the end of the day it is not evil or good that determines the merit of the action but the emotions and ideology that drove the action. A better philosophical stance would be to say that acts commited out of violent emotions could be seen as evil, but not inherently evil themselves.

There are many actions that could be considered inherently evil by thier very nature, for example murder. Consider this : two soldiers of opposing forces engage in battle, but one of them will surely die. Is the killer evil? Murder takes many forms, it can involve innocents, it can involve enemies, it can be in far off places or next door. It can be to used to punish villians, or to save lives. It leaves much to be desired when being described as evil, yet most societies will agree that murder in and of itself is evil. Yet, those same societies sanction murder under certain circumstances, say a gunman takes a hostage, or a man responsible for voilent crimes could be executed.

To say that God created evil is a logical fallacy. If you believe in God you must also believe in the absolute power of God. Either God created humanity knowing it's potential for violence and cruelty, or God did not create humanity, it cannot be otherwise. And if you do believe that God created mankind, then you must also believe that because God created a being capable of cruelty towards itself, that God must be indiferent to the actions that humanity chooses to take in this regard. To say that Satan or any other force is capable of subverting the will of God compromises that absolute power. To say that God is benevolent or just is to say that God chooses sides. A being of absolute power would not have to make a choice, as it would subvert the absolute power of God by its very nature. God is either indiferent or absolute. God cannot be both, as this is a contradiction.

Edit : type-o

< Message edited by Endivius -- 9/30/2011 8:27:16 PM >

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Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 171

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:39:58 PM

samboct

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Hi K

I too only gave the wiki a fast read. What I recall about Feuerbach from college: he postulated that man examined self and took what was good- and called it god. What was base was man. So essentially, rather than god creating man, man actually created god. All religions employ smoke and mirrors to obscure this detail of their origin.

This may have been Marx's take on Feuerbach....

Sam

(in reply to Endivius)

Post #: 172

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:41:19 PM

SuzeCheri

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quote:

God created an angel... that angel fell from grace -- that "fallen angel" is Satan. God gives us CHOICE... Satan made a choice...

Why? Why did God create that angel knowing he would fall from grace and become Satan? He knew it would happen, which according to you and Chattep is the source of evil, so why did he do it?

If he didn't want evil to exist, why did he create the angel that he knew would fall and become the source of evil?

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 173

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 8:57:44 PM

Edwynn

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We are all sorry for your very real heart-felt pain. This has happened to others also, believe it or not.

But "God" isn't going to be here for you to punch at, if you have any sense about yourself at all.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/30/2011 9:01:27 PM >

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

Post #: 174

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:11:11 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Not the same thing at all. She was referring to the existence of pain, suffering, disease, and so on, as well as crimes. Surely you aren't claiming that diseases, earthquakes, typhoons, house fires, pain and emotional suffering in the face of the death of a loved one are all a result of choice, are you? And with murder, rape and/or theft, what became of the victim's free will? Your position has faulty internal logic as it only applies to a small subsection of the phenomenon, and imperfectly at that.

Yes, I am claiming that diseases, earthquakes, typhoons, etc. are the result of choice. What I don't claim is that the negative consequences of our original choice to exercise free will didn't include having to live in a world where there are diseases, earthquakes, typhoons, etc. The negative consequences of choice needn't be limited to only the direct ones obvious to us.

I cannot know for sure and am only going with what seems possible to me, but one of the direct consequences of Adam and Eve's sin was expulsion from the Garden of Eden. As I recognize that many of the "stories" from the Bible may be more metaphorical in nature, I see it possible that this story is relating how man being sent out from the Garden of Eden (that perfect world with no natural disaster) into a world where there were unpleasant elements and dangers.

I don't see this as strictly a punishment for disobedience. There may be underlying reasons for an imperfect world other than retribution. As a necessity for embracing the nature of life, man would have to be exposed to the possibility of death. Death by deterioration of old age alone might have limited life for us and our free will and ability to expand. Imagine knowing without doubt that no matter your actions, you will only die once your body physically gives out at an advanced age.

Additionally, what knowledge would we have not sought and gained by having no diseases or severe elements to try to overcome? What further scientific advances would we have lost from not seeking that knowledge?

There is also the possibility that natural destruction is a necessary evolutionary element in controlling the population growth until we advanced to a point where we could sustain ourselves. Or a motivational factor in our civilization. How much growth and good have we seen... people coming together and working for the good of others... in response to some natural disaster? Have we not witnessed outpourings of sympathy and good will in coming together to seek solutions to medical problems?

Can you imagine the loss to our humanity if it were inconceivable that we might face or suffer some tragedy in life... if it was beyond our comprehension for people to join together to raise money for medical research, or rebuild cities after an earthquake, or cry together over the destruction of some natural wonder?

I don't claim to have the answers, but what I do have is acceptance that this is our world... and how we deal with it is what makes us human.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 175

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:15:21 PM

SuzeCheri

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quote:

It is called "free will". Truly understanding it can be hard.

Yes it is, you just don't seem to grasp the logical fallacy that is free will when god already knows what you will do if he creates you the way you were created? He knew before you were born exactly what you were going to do if he made you the way you are, so since he did make you the way you are, you really don't have any choice. You were designed to choose the way you do.

The same goes for the Eden story. Before the first day, before "Let there be light" god knew that Adam and Eve would fall for the temptation, yet he designed the world and people the way he did anyway, knowing they would fall. The only rational conclusion I can see, is that he wanted them to fall.

What possible real choices do you have when the outcome of those choices is known in advance. God knows what you will choose, so he knows if you will be good or evil. What's the point of going through the motions? God knows what will happen in your life and he knows what lessons you will draw from it, so why not just create you with those lessons learned? Why does he make you go through the pain to get to where he already knows you will get. To put it on a more personal plane, why did God have to kill Valerie in order to have me lose faith, why didn't he just make me without faith in the first place? Remember, there can be no unintended consequences for god, he knows everything, he knows exactly what is going to happen in every situation and has known from before creation.

God made Dahlmer a psychopath with homocidal tendencies with the full knowledge that Dahlmer would act on them. Obviously God wanted him to, or he wouldn't have made him with those tendencies in the first place.

And why does it hurt when a loved one dies? God wants it to hurt. What purpose is served by making it hurt, why does he want to cause me pain? So I will value the time I have with those I love more? Well then why not just create me in such a way that I will do so, why go through the charade of making me suffer? He already knows what I will or won't learn from it.

It isn't a matter of what I would want, it is a matter of the world being incompatible with God as defined by Christianity. He could have created the world and people any way he wanted to, and he chose to do so in a manner involving pain, suffering, and sorrow. But you would have me believe he is infinitely good. If he is infinitely good, why did he chose to to make pain and suffering part of the equation? He didn't have to.

Your child in a bubble analogy only applies because that is the way God created the world, he could have created it so that never choosing the bad or eviol act was infinitely fulfilling. Yet he didn't. Why?

God had to create evil, it couldn't exist otherwise. We don't create it, we may cause it, but we are not the reason it exists. It exists for the same reason that everything else does. God created it, he created everything.

If God has the attributes that Christianity attributes to him, evil and suffering cannot exist, neither can free will. Now, since I know for a fact that suffering exists along with evil, i also know that god does not have the attributes attributed to him by Christianity, and therefore, Christianity is a false doctrine, because it misrepresents the nature of God.

(in reply to TreasureKY)

Post #: 176

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:19:04 PM

TreasureKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

It is called "free will". Truly understanding it can be hard.
Yes it is, you just don't seem to grasp the logical fallacy that is free will when god already knows what you will do if he creates you the way you were created? He knew before you were born exactly what you were going to do if he made you the way you are, so since he did make you the way you are, you really don't have any choice. You were designed to choose the way you do.

The same goes for the Eden story. Before the first day, before "Let there be light" god knew that Adam and Eve would fall for the temptation, yet he designed the world and people the way he did anyway, knowing they would fall. The only rational conclusion I can see, is that he wanted them to fall.

What possible real choices do you have when the outcome of those choices is known in advance. God knows what you will choose, so he knows if you will be good or evil. What's the point of going through the motions? God knows what will happen in your life and he knows what lessons you will draw from it, so why not just create you with those lessons learned? Why does he make you go through the pain to get to where he already knows you will get. To put it on a more personal plane, why did God have to kill Valerie in order to have me lose faith, why didn't he just make me without faith in the first place? Remember, there can be no unintended consequences for god, he knows everything, he knows exactly what is going to happen in every situation and has known from before creation.

God made Dahlmer a psychopath with homocidal tendencies with the full knowledge that Dahlmer would act on them. Obviously God wanted him to, or he wouldn't have made him with those tendencies in the first place.

And why does it hurt when a loved one dies? God wants it to hurt. What purpose is served by making it hurt, why does he want to cause me pain? So I will value the time I have with those I love more? Well then why not just create me in such a way that I will do so, why go through the charade of making me suffer? He already knows what I will or won't learn from it.

It isn't a matter of what I would want, it is a matter of the world being incompatible with God as defined by Christianity. He could have created the world and people any way he wanted to, and he chose to do so in a manner involving pain, suffering, and sorrow. But you would have me believe he is infinitely good. If he is infinitely good, why did he chose to to make pain and suffering part of the equation? He didn't have to.

Your child in a bubble analogy only applies because that is the way God created the world, he could have created it so that never choosing the bad or eviol act was infinitely fulfilling. Yet he didn't. Why?

God had to create evil, it couldn't exist otherwise. We don't create it, we may cause it, but we are not the reason it exists. It exists for the same reason that everything else does. God created it, he created everything.

If God has the attributes that Christianity attributes to him, evil and suffering cannot exist, neither can free will. Now, since I know for a fact that suffering exists along with evil, i also know that god does not have the attributes attributed to him by Christianity, and therefore, Christianity is a false doctrine, because it misrepresents the nature of God.

Cheri,

It is late and I need to retire. I will attempt to address this fully tomorrow.

Treasure

(in reply to SuzeCheri)

Post #: 177

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:22:59 PM

SuzeCheri

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quote:

If you love, then you must accept there will be hate.

Why? Why does it have to be that way? Why couldn't God, if he was infinitely good and loving, have made so that hate simply never happened? What purpose does hatred serve?

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 178

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:24:36 PM

SuzeCheri

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But that isn't the way God is according to the Christian model.

(in reply to Endivius)

Post #: 179

RE: I renounce Christianity - 9/30/2011 9:26:37 PM

SuzeCheri

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quote:

our original choice to exercise free will

When did that happen? I don't ever recall being given the choice one way or another.

(in reply to TreasureKY)

Post #: 180

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