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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:56:34 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Who can or cannot be targeted by The United States, in an undeclared war?



How about someone conspiring to murder American citizens, while living abroad and being outside of the reach of US law.

Anyone you know who fits that bill ?

BTW good to see you getting concerned about peoples rights now GWB is out of office.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 6:27:40 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Executive Order 11,905 stated that “No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassinations.”

Political not national security. That means no shooting national leaders or political party leaders. It has absolutely nothing to do with exterminating al Qaeda.


So you are saying religious leaders are then fair game?

Define national leaders. Are you talking about those in power or in opposition? What in your mind defines political party?

Who can or cannot be targeted by The United States, in an undeclared war?


If the religious leader is not involved in politics then yes they can be targeted by the strict wording of EO 11,905.

Since the rule is against political assassinations I'd say any national leader in power or in the opposition. A political party is a group working for common goals inside the political structure of the country they are in.

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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 7:11:49 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Thats the New York Times, not exactly a bastion of Conservatism.



As a counter argument, I simply offer Judith "Rancid-Cunt" Miller, and all the NYT's printing of all the lies that fit...




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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 283
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:25:13 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		I don't know if anyone read the NYT article that headline was posted here but I find some of it interesting. First off the full headline included the phase

Document provided justification for acting despite an executive order banning assassinations.

The secret document provided the justification for acting despite an executive order banning assassinations, a federal law against murder, protections in the Bill of Rights and various strictures of the international laws of war, according to people familiar with the analysis.

What I really am concerned about, in the article much of the bases for the US action is that the US is at war. No declartion of war has been issued.

Again I ask who are the real terrorist, Al Qaeda? or a government that denies the legal rights of it citizens?


_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:31:32 AM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Exactly which law allows the executive branch to deprive citizens of Life, without "due process of law"?


It is forbidden in amendment V, so there must be a citable law that allows it......

It is funny to watch people who demanded a civilian trial for Kalihd Sheik Mohammed (or he be let go), now arguing that of course the Government can kill people (along with bystanders) with no trial for thier blog posts....





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Profile   Post #: 285
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:39:10 AM   
Sanity


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Whats REALLY interesting is watching them attack the "true" liberals - the ones who really believed in the hysteria and hype that was drummed up against George W. Bush purely for the sake of politics... and are consistent in wanting to see the same standards applied to even this Democrat administration

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Profile   Post #: 286
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:43:24 AM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Who can or cannot be targeted by The United States, in an undeclared war?



How about someone conspiring to murder American citizens, while living abroad and being outside of the reach of US law.

Anyone you know who fits that bill ?

BTW good to see you getting concerned about peoples rights now GWB is out of office.



Ummmm I have made it crystal clear I support President Obama ordering this.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:49:08 AM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Executive Order 11,905 stated that “No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassinations.”

Political not national security. That means no shooting national leaders or political party leaders. It has absolutely nothing to do with exterminating al Qaeda.


So you are saying religious leaders are then fair game?

Define national leaders. Are you talking about those in power or in opposition? What in your mind defines political party?

Who can or cannot be targeted by The United States, in an undeclared war?


If the religious leader is not involved in politics then yes they can be targeted by the strict wording of EO 11,905.

Since the rule is against political assassinations I'd say any national leader in power or in the opposition. A political party is a group working for common goals inside the political structure of the country they are in.


Not involved who's politics? Our's? Their's? Someone else's? So a religious leader of hundreds of thousands could be targeted for execution by the United States but a crack pot who form a political party with eight people in it is protected?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:54:16 AM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		I suspect he is simply making up these distinctions and can't actually point to them in law.

Seems like dk, Mnot and farg would have simply posted the relevant statutes and won the argument by now.




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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 10:06:18 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		I'd kinda avoided this topic because I had mixed feelings on several aspects and was trying to sort them out myself. But then I stumbled across a post by a Canadian friend on another board that summed up so nicely where I found myself leaning, so, I'm going to plagiarize her here hehe:

"Look, it doesn't matter what he's accused of, or even how obvious it is that he is guilty. None of us are shedding a tear for Al-Awlaki. Good riddance to him and his ilk. That's not the point. The simple issue is whether or not the government should be allowed to execute its own citizens without any regard for due process at all. His case is not somehow an "obvious exception." Any exception at all opens the door to allow the government to do the same to anyone else they find inconvenient."

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 11:24:59 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I'd kinda avoided this topic because I had mixed feelings on several aspects and was trying to sort them out myself. But then I stumbled across a post by a Canadian friend on another board that summed up so nicely where I found myself leaning, so, I'm going to plagiarize her here hehe:

"Look, it doesn't matter what he's accused of, or even how obvious it is that he is guilty. None of us are shedding a tear for Al-Awlaki. Good riddance to him and his ilk. That's not the point. The simple issue is whether or not the government should be allowed to execute its own citizens without any regard for due process at all. His case is not somehow an "obvious exception." Any exception at all opens the door to allow the government to do the same to anyone else they find inconvenient."

This is exactly my position as well.

I find it humorous - in a droll, sad way - that many of the same people who screamed "Violation of the Constitution!" and "Violation of American morality!" when the Bush admin authorized "enhanced interrogation" of non-citizens are either quiet, or actively support this President who actually kills American citizens through basically the same process and justification.

So ... you can kill them, just don't hurt them?  

Bizarro World, here we are.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 10/9/2011 11:26:00 AM >

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(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 11:56:46 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Executive Order 11,905 stated that “No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassinations.”

Political not national security. That means no shooting national leaders or political party leaders. It has absolutely nothing to do with exterminating al Qaeda.


So you are saying religious leaders are then fair game?

Define national leaders. Are you talking about those in power or in opposition? What in your mind defines political party?

Who can or cannot be targeted by The United States, in an undeclared war?


If the religious leader is not involved in politics then yes they can be targeted by the strict wording of EO 11,905.

Since the rule is against political assassinations I'd say any national leader in power or in the opposition. A political party is a group working for common goals inside the political structure of the country they are in.


Not involved who's politics? Our's? Their's? Someone else's? So a religious leader of hundreds of thousands could be targeted for execution by the United States but a crack pot who form a political party with eight people in it is protected?


This is ridiculous. We're discussing an EO issued by Ford in the 70's. I'm sure he meant political in the common meaning of the term, it is not further defined.

A religious leader who is not political is not protected. A crack pot who is strictly a political leader, no matter how small the party, is.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 12:13:29 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I'd kinda avoided this topic because I had mixed feelings on several aspects and was trying to sort them out myself. But then I stumbled across a post by a Canadian friend on another board that summed up so nicely where I found myself leaning, so, I'm going to plagiarize her here hehe:

"Look, it doesn't matter what he's accused of, or even how obvious it is that he is guilty. None of us are shedding a tear for Al-Awlaki. Good riddance to him and his ilk. That's not the point. The simple issue is whether or not the government should be allowed to execute its own citizens without any regard for due process at all. His case is not somehow an "obvious exception." Any exception at all opens the door to allow the government to do the same to anyone else they find inconvenient."

I think the point here is that al Awlaki and Khan were very much outlaws in the old sense of the word. That is they were people who had put themselves beyond the reach of the law. The fact that the laws they sought to destroy were not stretched to protect them seems completely reasonable to me.

I will contrast it with the obviously unacceptable treatment of Jose Padilla who was a US citizen under the control of the US government for years and denied all of his constitutional rights.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 12:16:54 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		Which appears to have been overturned.

"political in the common meaning" Now what the heck does THAT mean???

And who gets to make the call on whether or not a particular religious leader is political or not?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 1:14:53 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

I think the point here is that al Awlaki and Khan were very much outlaws in the old sense of the word. That is they were people who had put themselves beyond the reach of the law. The fact that the laws they sought to destroy were not stretched to protect them seems completely reasonable to me.

I will contrast it with the obviously unacceptable treatment of Jose Padilla who was a US citizen under the control of the US government for years and denied all of his constitutional rights.


Two quick points I guess.

1) Not sure how following the law would be "stretching" it, and

2) Jose Padilla's treatment was unacceptable as well, but two wrongs don't make a right, yadda yadda.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 10/9/2011 1:18:47 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 1:31:54 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

I think the point here is that al Awlaki and Khan were very much outlaws in the old sense of the word. That is they were people who had put themselves beyond the reach of the law. The fact that the laws they sought to destroy were not stretched to protect them seems completely reasonable to me.

I will contrast it with the obviously unacceptable treatment of Jose Padilla who was a US citizen under the control of the US government for years and denied all of his constitutional rights.


Two quick points I guess.

1) Not sure how following the law would be "stretching" it, and

2) Jose Padilla's treatment was unacceptable as well, but two wrongs don't make a right, yadda yadda.

The law does not state that US citizens in a foreign country have to be accorded their constitutional rights. It is a stretch of the law to say that they do.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 1:34:03 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Which appears to have been overturned.

"political in the common meaning" Now what the heck does THAT mean???

And who gets to make the call on whether or not a particular religious leader is political or not?

If the EO is overturned then it is open season on anyone the POTUS wants dead.

Common meaning is a common law term. It means a word means what the average person thinks it means.

Since it was an EO the POTUS or his legal advisors decide who it applies to.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 1:49:45 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

I think the point here is that al Awlaki and Khan were very much outlaws in the old sense of the word. That is they were people who had put themselves beyond the reach of the law. The fact that the laws they sought to destroy were not stretched to protect them seems completely reasonable to me.

I will contrast it with the obviously unacceptable treatment of Jose Padilla who was a US citizen under the control of the US government for years and denied all of his constitutional rights.


Two quick points I guess.

1) Not sure how following the law would be "stretching" it, and

2) Jose Padilla's treatment was unacceptable as well, but two wrongs don't make a right, yadda yadda.

The law does not state that US citizens in a foreign country have to be accorded their constitutional rights. It is a stretch of the law to say that they do.


AFAIK, the law does not state that US citizens in a foreign country don't have to be accorded their constitutional rights, which would mean it's a stretch to deny them. (Especially since citizens in a foreign country are still obligated to pay taxes etc.)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 2:04:38 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

I think the point here is that al Awlaki and Khan were very much outlaws in the old sense of the word. That is they were people who had put themselves beyond the reach of the law. The fact that the laws they sought to destroy were not stretched to protect them seems completely reasonable to me.

I will contrast it with the obviously unacceptable treatment of Jose Padilla who was a US citizen under the control of the US government for years and denied all of his constitutional rights.


Two quick points I guess.

1) Not sure how following the law would be "stretching" it, and

2) Jose Padilla's treatment was unacceptable as well, but two wrongs don't make a right, yadda yadda.

The law does not state that US citizens in a foreign country have to be accorded their constitutional rights. It is a stretch of the law to say that they do.


AFAIK, the law does not state that US citizens in a foreign country don't have to be accorded their constitutional rights, which would mean it's a stretch to deny them. (Especially since citizens in a foreign country are still obligated to pay taxes etc.)

The US Constitution has long been held to only apply inside the US territory and to restrain certain behaviors of the US government outside those borders. We killed US citizens who joined the German army in WWI and WWII without any legal issues and we can certainly kill a US citizen who joins a terror group and who operates in an area beyond our ability to safely capture him.

The counter argument is beyond absurd. How many law abiding US citizens lives is it worth?

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 2:18:28 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		The two situations are entirely different though. In war they were actively engaged in combat...just like I have no issues with a Police Officer shooting an armed suspect engaging in violent actions, citizen or not.

This guy was riding in a car though when a drone fired and killed him.

And the question "How many law abiding US citizens lives is it worth?" is the same justification used for a lot of other injustices that I can't bring myself to support.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 10/9/2011 2:21:41 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 300
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