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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 2:38:34 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

The two situations are entirely different though. In war they were actively engaged in combat...just like I have no issues with a Police Officer shooting an armed suspect engaging in violent actions, citizen or not.

This guy was riding in a car though when a drone fired and killed him.

And the question "How many law abiding US citizens lives is it worth?" is the same justification used for a lot of other injustices that I can't bring myself to support.

So, in your opinion, he should have been left alone to continue planning violence against the US?

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 2:56:44 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		I didn't say that. :p

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 302
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:02:31 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

The US Constitution has long been held to only apply inside the US territory and to restrain certain behaviors of the US government outside those borders.


This from the u.s. constitution under the powers of congress:
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:07:58 PM   
tiemeupalso


Posts: 39
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Raiikun
thats exactly what you said.if we didnt kill him when we had the chance,then he woudl be free to go on planning terrorist attacks

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:15:31 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

So, in your opinion, he should have been left alone to continue planning violence against the US?


Is there a law against someone planning violence against the u.s.?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:32:45 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So, in your opinion, he should have been left alone to continue planning violence against the US?


Is there a law against someone planning violence against the u.s.?

A few dozen of them.

For instance USC 18 chapter 113b section 2332B
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002332---b000-.html

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:33:44 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemeupalso

Raiikun
thats exactly what you said.if we didnt kill him when we had the chance,then he woudl be free to go on planning terrorist attacks


That's a False Dilemma logical fallacy there.

(in reply to tiemeupalso)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:34:26 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I didn't say that. :p

Then precisely what should have been done? Should we have risked a SEAL team's lives simply to capture one guy? Precisely how many lives of law abiding US citizens is this guy worth?

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:45:25 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Are you suggesting then we should sacrifice a bit of our ideals then for a bit of security?

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 3:46:30 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Well, until they're convicted in a court of law, they're by definition innocent of any crimes. So, the next question would be, if you're going to be arresting them, why aren't you sending the FBI instead of a SEAL team?

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(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 4:03:58 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		If the game changes you gonna loose if you dont adapt.Terrorism is not like the old rules.
SO yeah, one person terrorist instead of an army ... much different tactics needed.
War on terror.. means different than WW2 or Vietnam or Falklands or even the IRA.


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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 5:04:01 PM   
Nosathro


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Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I didn't say that. :p

Then precisely what should have been done? Should we have risked a SEAL team's lives simply to capture one guy? Precisely how many lives of law abiding US citizens is this guy worth?


Didn't we do that with bin-Laden?

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 5:06:31 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So, in your opinion, he should have been left alone to continue planning violence against the US?


Is there a law against someone planning violence against the u.s.?

A few dozen of them.

For instance USC 18 chapter 113b section 2332B
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002332---b000-.html



This from USC 18 chapter 113b section 2332B


(5) the term “Federal crime of terrorism” means an offense that—
(A) is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct;

It would appear that voting might be a terrorist act since it seeks to affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct;

If voting the bastards out is not a form of intimidation designed to retaliate against goverment conduct then what is?


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 5:17:20 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

If the game changes you gonna loose if you dont adapt.Terrorism is not like the old rules.
SO yeah, one person terrorist instead of an army ... much different tactics needed.
War on terror.. means different than WW2 or Vietnam or Falklands or even the IRA.




Viet nam and ireland and ww2 would all fit into the terrorist concept.
Viet nam and ireland because of all of their very physical one on one approach and ww 2 because of the bombing campaigns directed at civilians.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 5:22:12 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I find it humorous - in a droll, sad way - that many of the same people who screamed "Violation of the Constitution!" and "Violation of American morality!" when the Bush admin authorized "enhanced interrogation" of non-citizens are either quiet, or actively support this President who actually kills American citizens through basically the same process and justification.

So ... you can kill them, just don't hurt them?  

Bizarro World, here we are.

Firm



oddly enough, that is exactly my position, and I posted as much when Bush was in office. The difference with Gitmo is that the majority of those sent there were not terrorists, unlike Awlaki who had posted his intentions on the net.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:08:47 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Are you suggesting then we should sacrifice a bit of our ideals then for a bit of security?

No, I'm saying this was never our ideals. This guy had declared himself our enemy no matter what technicality made him a citizen. If he had fallen into our laps sure he should have been caught and put on trial but he didn't and when we got a chance we ended a man who had been involved in 2 terrorist attacks on this nation and was planning more.

But you're still not answering the question, what should we have done?

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:10:05 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I didn't say that. :p

Then precisely what should have been done? Should we have risked a SEAL team's lives simply to capture one guy? Precisely how many lives of law abiding US citizens is this guy worth?


Didn't we do that with bin-Laden?

We didn't know for sure it was OBL and the risk was considered acceptable to be sure we had him.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/9/2011 9:14:50 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So, in your opinion, he should have been left alone to continue planning violence against the US?


Is there a law against someone planning violence against the u.s.?

A few dozen of them.

For instance USC 18 chapter 113b section 2332B
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002332---b000-.html



This from USC 18 chapter 113b section 2332B


(5) the term “Federal crime of terrorism” means an offense that—
(A) is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct;

It would appear that voting might be a terrorist act since it seeks to affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct;

If voting the bastards out is not a form of intimidation designed to retaliate against goverment conduct then what is?



You left a big part of the law out and tried to change the meaning of the law.
The actual language:
quote:

(5) the term “Federal crime of terrorism” means an offense that—
(A) is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and (B) is a violation of—
(i) section 32 (relating to destruction of aircraft or aircraft facilities), 37 (relating to violence at international airports), 81 (relating to arson within special maritime and territorial jurisdiction), 175 or 175b (relating to biological weapons), 175c (relating to variola virus), 229 (relating to chemical weapons), subsection (a), (b), (c), or (d) of section 351 (relating to congressional, cabinet, and Supreme Court assassination and kidnaping), 831 (relating to nuclear materials), 832 (relating to participation in nuclear and weapons of mass destruction threats to the United States) [2] 842(m) or (n) (relating to plastic explosives), 844(f)(2) or (3) (relating to arson and bombing of Government property risking or causing death), 844(i) (relating to arson and bombing of property used in interstate commerce), 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a Federal facility with a dangerous weapon), 956(a)(1) (relating to conspiracy to murder, kidnap, or maim persons abroad), 1030(a)(1) (relating to protection of computers), 1030(a)(5)(A) resulting in damage as defined in 1030(c)(4)(A)(i)(II) through (VI) (relating to protection of computers), 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the United States), 1116 (relating to murder or manslaughter of foreign officials, official guests, or internationally protected persons), 1203 (relating to hostage taking), 1361 (relating to government property or contracts), 1362 (relating to destruction of communication lines, stations, or systems), 1363 (relating to injury to buildings or property within special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States), 1366(a) (relating to destruction of an energy facility), 1751(a), (b), (c), or (d) (relating to Presidential and Presidential staff assassination and kidnaping), 1992 (relating to terrorist attacks and other acts of violence against railroad carriers and against mass transportation systems on land, on water, or through the air), 2155 (relating to destruction of national defense materials, premises, or utilities), 2156 (relating to national defense material, premises, or utilities), 2280 (relating to violence against maritime navigation), 2281 (relating to violence against maritime fixed platforms), 2332 (relating to certain homicides and other violence against United States nationals occurring outside of the United States), 2332a (relating to use of weapons of mass destruction), 2332b (relating to acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries), 2332f (relating to bombing of public places and facilities), 2332g (relating to missile systems designed to destroy aircraft), 2332h (relating to radiological dispersal devices), 2339 (relating to harboring terrorists), 2339A (relating to providing material support to terrorists), 2339B (relating to providing material support to terrorist organizations), 2339C (relating to financing of terrorism), 2339D (relating to military-type training from a foreign terrorist organization), or 2340A (relating to torture) of this title;

Notice how you have to be doing part A by violating one of the other statutes listed in part B for it to be a terrorist act. So no voting is not a terrorist act by this law and you knew that when you made your post.

This is why most people ignore you, you're dishonest and frequently make shit up to try and justify your claims.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/10/2011 7:13:12 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Never the less it was a Seal Team that was sent
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I didn't say that. :p

Then precisely what should have been done? Should we have risked a SEAL team's lives simply to capture one guy? Precisely how many lives of law abiding US citizens is this guy worth?


Didn't we do that with bin-Laden?

We didn't know for sure it was OBL and the risk was considered acceptable to be sure we had him.



_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: TERROR - US Two U.S.-Born Terrorists Killed in CIA... - 10/10/2011 7:32:36 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		(A) is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct;

This sentence has so many meaning. For example don't Coperations give money to members of government to influence how the government conducts itself. What about the on going occupation of Wall Street, they been called a "mob" and are trying to get government to change. I can see so many politiions saying they are being intimidated when a grass root group passes out a petition to recall him. Then there is the statement in our Declaration of Independence "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"

Then there is this 2340A (relating to torture) of this title; I would agrue that Bush Jr and his adminstration fall under this act. Didn't they use torture, oh I am sorry according to VP it not torture it is enhanced interagation technques.

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 320
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