RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (Full Version)

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SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 8:50:39 AM)
NakisisaX... I understand, and not understand, your posting. I understand the sentences, and some of their meanings, but I do not understand the whole. Or at least, not as an answer. I truly respect you. But please let me put this in a very easy way. Like talking to a child. It is not you - it is me. English is not my mother tongue. I have difficulties here. 1. A person (for example: you) belongs to many different cultures at the same time. Some are cultures defined by geography, some by ascendant, occupation, way of life (urbanite / rural), hobbies, kinks (BDSM culture), etc, etc, etc. There are almost infinite *criteria. Do you agree with this? 2. Even within the geographical and/or genetic, there are many possible divisions. You can divide by planet (yep), continent, subcontinent, area, region, province/State, municipality, or even part of the city (Beverly Hills subculture). You can divide by huge (African), big (Chinese), middle-sized (Illirian culture), small (Sicilian subculture) or tiny "clades" of ancestors. There are almost infinite levels* of granularity. Do you agree with this? 3. Providing you agree with (1) and (2): How can you possibly say, that it is morally better for a person to concentrate on ONE kind of culture in ONE level of granularity, as in any other? ---------- I will ask the same in another way now. Feel free to ignore one of the two presentations completely. In your sentence, "It is important to learn about other cultures one comes in contact with but its even more important to learn everything about yours" - you implicitly say that there is something like "my" culture. Which is ONE culture, and not many. According to you, I should have to care specially about that ONE culture. And this would be morally good. And failing on doing it would be morally bad. Which and why? In my case. In my specific case, please. If you say that I decide, then you are saying nothing, because you are saying "You should not ignore the culture which you consider imporant". Well, of course, if I myself consider it important, I won't ignore it. This sentence is not informative. It says nothing. But if you tell me that there is a criteria to decide which is "my" culture, and there is a justification for - why I should care about it more as about any other of my cultures... then I kindly ask you again - which is this criteria, and where is the justification. Please try to concentrate on me. You are not saying that YOU should do something. You were saying that PEOPLE, we ALL, should do something. And I am asking myself how and why this applies to me. Thank you again.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 11:27:48 AM)
I believe somewhere in between is good, but we cannot have that in between without the two sides. I have a moral code that someone's rights ends where my begins. If someone wishes to celebrate their culture in a manner that is lawful, and all cultures are equitably treated under the law, I have no problem with that. I lived within the Asian community for a few years of my life, and I learned how a world (culture) within a world (The United States) can exist without any on the outside even noticing much. I am also the parent of a child with mixed heritage, African-American and Caucasian. I want him to learn of his heritage, but I know my limitations, and why I will have a friend of mine do it while I sit in and learn as well. I will be able to tell the stories handed down through my linage, but have no stories of his paternal side, so that will need to be supplimented. I hope he grows to be proud of all his heritage, for the things they should be proud of, and learn from the mistakes that have been made along the many generations. I do agree that a common language would assist in acclimation to any country though. No matter what that language is, the necessity to communicate among a people is vital. quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Fightdirecto and Firm seem to be on opposite ends of the multicultural tolerance spectrum and I find myself somewhere in between.

Aynne88 -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 8:14:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 Really? I'm sorry Aynne, but I think your last post was insulting and uncalled for, even if it doesn't merit mod intervention. Could we please restrict the discussion to ideas, and not personalities? I think the the posters have done an exceptionally good job so far, and I'd like to keep it as professional as possible. Firm Oh my god that was rich Firm. Mod intervention? Hahahahaha..with the Canadian quartet around? Nice try. They have raised the bar so high now even Domi can't get modded.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 3:24:22 AM)
We can always moderate ourselves, we are adults. If you have read the post from VideoAdminAlpha, the guidelines and how things are going to be handled in the future are going to change. I think that we can show that when presented in a particular fashion, we can rise above the need for moderation on many things. It just requires restraint, self-control, and for some maybe the hide feature. Hope things are well with all.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 5:10:04 AM)
Thank you Orion. Showing that was secondary purpose of the thread. If we can do it in a thread about race et al, then we can do it about anything. Most of us have been able to actually discuss the issue. Firm

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 11:24:16 AM)
NakisisaX?

GreedyTop -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 11:30:42 AM)
dude.. you DO realize this is a MESSAGE board and NOT a CHATROOM.. replies may take a while..

tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 1:57:14 PM)
Obviously not Greedy... lol

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 8:15:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop dude.. you DO realize this is a MESSAGE board and NOT a CHATROOM.. replies may take a while.. Yes, I do. Your point being? That I should post a name just for the case? That I should not post after one day when the other answers required few hours? That it simply annoys you to see my face when I post? That you cannot let a posting with one single name be and you have to start trolling? Anyway - better hidden. Bye.

DeviantlyD -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 10:18:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop dude.. you DO realize this is a MESSAGE board and NOT a CHATROOM.. replies may take a while.. Or that person isn't interested in debating with someone whose agenda seems to rather...hmmm...one-sided? ;)

DeviantlyD -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 10:22:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster Anyway - better hidden. Bye. Greedy, I bet you're all broken up over that one. :D

Real0ne -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/7/2011 11:57:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Membership is. Which is decided by each Sovereign nation, to its own standards. If you are refering to tribes, they are not sovereign nations, as they exists according to US law, and hence they accept and depend (legally) on a superior law, the one of the US, which is a sovereign nation because it does not exist depending (legally) on anything else (like the UN, for example). I must insist on this. Souvereignity implies that there is no superior level. you got some screwy law there. the US "acknowledges" the sovereignty of the indians within the trust as well as the under the law of nations. Sovereignty has not a thing to do with "granted" authority. There are several levels of sovereignty, wrong again. Every man woman and child are born sovereign in the US. quote: "...at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects...with none to govern but themselves; the citizens of America are equal as fellow citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty." CHISHOLM v. GEORGIA (US) 2 Dall 419, 454, 1 L Ed 440, 455 @DALL 1793 pp471-472 <-- since you are obviously not familiar with america that is a ruling court case that has never been over turned. I dont know where you are from but if you aint sovereign then you are some level of slave, there is no in between. Of course the greater majority of americans have no fucking clue what htat means and the true power they have in law if they every learn how to exercise it. As I said: Every man woman and child are born sovereign in the US. (and I insist backed by the court) May want to brush up on your law over the next 40 years. Oh and btw; ownership implies it yours, well guess again, what it implies and what it is, is 2 different things. Ownership is "right to rent" LOL

Real0ne -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 12:39:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NakisisaX Morality "should" never be taken out of the equation on learning about self. To me, cultural/ethnic survival is just as important as physical/biological. No indigenous peoples want their history to die out so they ingrain it in their children, because its tied into the biological survival.(What do we hunt, how do we hunt, what else do we eat etc) For the question of why some origins are deemed more important over others, well, thats easy. If mine is hidden or a result of misinformation, than mine takes priority automatically to clear it up. Period. We're speaking english and since it isn't my mother tongue, your question should be directed to those that imposed it all who don't have english heritage. Its about survival and I can understand that, so in response to that I see nothing wrong with doing the same thing but the difference is me having to unravel the lies told about my history so that others can impose and hype theirs. In reality, I don't have to downplay anyone else's history/culture. It usually speaks for itself. quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster quote: ORIGINAL: NakisisaX I'd rather learn about my origins first than to dive into someone else's, especially if that someone else puts theirs at the forefront by force and adds fantasy to it for their benefit. ... which happens often enough, yes, I know. My problem was with your "should". "You should...". That looked for me like a moral rule, and it confused me because it was hard for me to justify it in moral terms. Justify why the origins (and some of them) are more important than other things, for example, or why a certain granularity (tribe, language...) is less important that other (subcontinent, continent...). If you establish a moral rule ("people should do this, this is good, the opposite is bad") then you have to justify it, IMO. But if it is a taste, like when I say "men should wear ties more often", then it is ok. You are then not speaking about a real moral obligation, and hence you do not have to support it. Everybody like what she likes. That was the point. right! its carrying forward of the first government (the family you were born into), traditions. America as usual usurped the right to worship your God in that you can only pay your God lip service. If you religion requires anything that is not in conformance with statutory civil roman law to bad, you get fined or jailed or both for practicing the tenants of your religion among like members that which the constitution was INTENDED to protect before they stole it from you. Granted in america they are not allowed to "establish" a religion but the crack pots pushing atheist agendas got the courts not even to recognize ones religion or religion at all. Again some shit different day, the US steals your rights that they are the TRUSTEES and sworn to protect.

Real0ne -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 1:00:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster 1. A person (for example: you) belongs to many different cultures at the same time. Some are cultures defined by geography, some by ascendant, occupation, way of life (urbanite / rural), hobbies, kinks (BDSM culture), etc, etc, etc. There are almost infinite *criteria. Do you agree with this? Wrong, culture is singular, people "create" culture, not the other way around the way you are claiming, you got it backwards. The people who claim whatever group of elements as their "culture" singular, not the elements of various cultures claiming the people. This is a great example of what I preach on that kids now days are being taught everything backwards.. 2. Even within the geographical and/or genetic, there are many possible divisions. You can divide by planet (yep), continent, subcontinent, area, region, province/State, municipality, or even part of the city (Beverly Hills subculture). You can divide by huge (African), big (Chinese), middle-sized (Illirian culture), small (Sicilian subculture) or tiny "clades" of ancestors. There are almost infinite levels* of granularity. Do you agree with this? NO geographic location has nothing to do with culture. you may want to start with an understanding of the definition of "culture" quote: Culture is a definition highly misunderstood and misused, thus the need for an explanation: Culture refers to the following Ways of Life, including but not limited to: Language : the oldest human institution and the most sophisticated medium of expression. Arts & Sciences : the most advanced and refined forms of human expression. Thought : the ways in which people perceive, interpret, and understand the world around them. Spirituality : the value system transmitted through generations for the inner well-being of human beings, expressed through language and actions. Social activity : the shared pursuits within a cultural community, demonstrated in a variety of festivities and life-celebrating events. Interaction : the social aspects of human contact, including the give-and-take of socialization, negotiation, protocol, and conventions. The behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. All of the above collectively define the meaning of Culture. your whole premise is fundamentally flawed 3. Providing you agree with (1) and (2): How can you possibly say, that it is morally better for a person to concentrate on ONE kind of culture in ONE level of granularity, as in any other? All morals are not created equal. ---------- I will ask the same in another way now. Feel free to ignore one of the two presentations completely. ok snip ~ ignored Thank you again. any time

GreedyTop -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 1:34:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster Anyway - better hidden. Bye. Greedy, I bet you're all broken up over that one. :D yeah, lemme go grab a beer so I can cry into it.... [:D]

Termyn8or -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 1:38:48 AM)
FR I am not reading a word of this thread. But all these altruistic bullshit ideas that must be around here are held so dear by all ain't they ? Well guess what, when the shit hits the fan then it's the clan. I don't mean the fucking KKK, I mean your family. When you are thrust into a world in which you have no idea who to trust you WILL gravitate towards those of similar ethnicity and background to yours. Only a fucking liar would deny it, or a fool. Your choice. T^T^T

DeviantlyD -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 1:42:40 AM)
LOL See? I knew it would affect you profoundly. :D

DeviantlyD -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 1:44:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or FR I am not reading a word of this thread. But all these altruistic bullshit ideas that must be around here are held so dear by all ain't they ? Well guess what, when the shit hits the fan then it's the clan. I don't mean the fucking KKK, I mean your family. When you are thrust into a world in which you have no idea who to trust you WILL gravitate towards those of similar ethnicity and background to yours. Only a fucking liar would deny it, or a fool. Your choice. T^T^T Calm down, your "T"'s are multiplying. :D

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 2:26:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Only a fucking liar would deny it, or a fool. Your choice. I deny it. I am no liar nor a fool. Your choice to believe it or not.

DeviantlyD -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/8/2011 2:29:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Only a fucking liar would deny it, or a fool. Your choice. I deny it. I am no liar nor a fool. I'd say that's up for debate. [:D]

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