RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (Full Version)

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SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 9:23:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Membership is. Which is decided by each Sovereign nation, to its own standards.

If you are refering to tribes, they are not sovereign nations, as they exists according to US law, and hence they accept and depend (legally) on a superior law, the one of the  US, which is a sovereign nation because it does not exist depending (legally) on anything else (like the UN, for example).
I must insist on this. Souvereignity implies that there is no superior level.



ColumbusDominant -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 11:14:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Really? I thought it was the poor white male. Oh and your name? Hardly a surprising response considering you think the man that raped and plundered the Native Americans is someone to admire.



Um...I'm from Columbus Ohio.... slow down, take it easy, and don't be so quick to make yourself look foolish.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 11:22:11 PM)

Columbus, Ohio... [:D]

quote:

the man that raped and plundered the Native Americans

"The" man?
If that would be true, he WOULD be to admire. Damn Genovese!




RacialSlavery -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 1:02:28 AM)

Even I think this thread is ill-advised.



crazyml -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 2:37:29 AM)

For me these questions centre on these two ideas (taken from two fantastic posts);


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I think that multiculturalism is detrimental when it tears at the things that are the basis of what American is. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I have pride in my heritage, but I am an American, which means there is a mix bag of things that stands for.


Multiculturalism can be enormously positive if handled correctly, and hugely divisive if handled incorrectly. And getting that balance right depends, I think, on the basic values that a particular society or nation wants to adhere to.

The question is what is it that "American is", what is that mixed bag of things that being an "American" stands for?

It's important because that mixed bag contains some essential values.

Multiculturalism should be encouraged up to the point that the cultural beliefs come into conflict with those core values, then it should stop.

In the UK we have radicalised teenagers insisting that they don't have to obey "English Law" because they are subject only to "God's" law. This should not be tolerated - especially as their interpretation of their "God's" law diverges fundamentally from the basic values of the society at large.

In the UK we're schizo - on one hand we go on about people wearing crosses in public and on the other hand we overlook the mysogyny that pervades some people's interpretation of their particular religion.

So my take is to start with a set of values and I'm picking a couple (but not an exhaustive list) that I think are handy- Liberty, equal access to justice and opportunity for all (regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion), Meritocracy, Participation

A culture that celebrates its history can absolutely do so within that value framework (indeed - their liberty would be constrained if they weren't allowed to).

A culture that denies the right of a woman to work, or constrains her liberty goes against these values.

A culture that preaches hate against gays, goes against these values

These values aren't just "rights" they're also responsibilities. If you want to be part of the greater society - I think you should sign up to them.

I think it's amazing if people continue to speak their home language, and celebrate their cultural heritage, but if you don't speak the official language you can't participate - And (to me) an unwillingness to participate is a breach of the values.

So, if a Jewish person tells me "it's insensitive to call the 25th of December Christmas", they're seeking to constrain my liberty - It's fucking Christmas. Just as I wouldn't dream of saying "It's insensitive to call the 10th Oct 'yom kippur' - It's fucking Yom Kippur, and none of the values are threatened by its celebration.

If a devout muslim tells me that my girfriend is a slut because she doesn't wear a veil, again they can fuck off.

So for me, any culture is a welcome thing, any celebration of culture and heritage is a valuable thing as long as it is not at odds with Liberty, equal access to justice and opportunity for all (regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion), Meritocracy, Participation.



luckydawg -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 3:02:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

yet I do dispute it, for example, memebers can adopt a child outside thier race.

http://www.afognak.org/html/enrollment.php

"Any blood descendant or adoptee of a base roll member and their descendants."

I also gave an anedoctal example.


And furthermore, a person can have the required blood quanta (but can't proove it) and not be enrolled, there are many hispanics who fall into that catagory)


Your site got it wrong.

From the actual application.

MEMBERSHIP ELIGIBILITY: Based on our constitution and enrollment ordinance, a person must meet the
following eligibility requirements in order to become a tribal member:
1. Any person listed on the Base Roll for the tribe, or
2. Any blood descendent or adoptee of Native descent of a base enrollee and their descendants by blood or adoption, or
3. Persons of Native descent with historic or ancestral ties to the Village of Afognak

http://www.afognak.org/files/enrollment/enrollment%20packet%202011.pdf



The necessary forms are enclosed. Additionally, while it is not required of all applicants, a Certificate of
Indian Blood (CDIB) may be requested to prove Native descent. NVA does not require persons meeting
some minimum Native blood quantum. If you need an application to request a CDIB from the Bureau of
Indian Affairs, we can provide one on request.

That is the second paragraph of your link, on the PDF they even underline the NOT.

Why are you ignoring what your own link clearly and directly states?



Edwynn -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 3:31:18 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
So for me, any culture is a welcome thing, any celebration of culture and heritage is a valuable thing as long as it is not at odds with Liberty, equal access to justice and opportunity for all (regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion), Meritocracy, Participation.




All fine and well, but only if we overlook the hubris entrenched in most of the above.

I'm not against much of the above, as to my own thinking, but I cannot take it so far as to strike down every other people's understanding of it. I cannot consider assimilation a one way street in the modern world. I understand Firm's conerns completely, without having to agree with his particular take on it. Every other culture  has the same type of concerns.

I have known of several western teachers working in the Orient, and all I hear from them is their despondency at how these people think in terms of group, disinclined to think of what they want for themselves before anything else, as in Western countries, most extremely in the UK or US. But more disheartening to me is that it has never once occurred to these teachers to even learn the local culture beyond a minimal and superficial Western treatment, and think that they are doing these people a great favour to proselytize them to the individualistic Western way.

I'm not saying that I could like the Oriental way of things myself, in fact I'm sure I couldn't. But does it ever occur to us to just shut up every once in awhile and just observe another way for more than a single 2 minute slot sometimes, before we go telling them how much better our way is?




tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 4:03:07 AM)

When you realize what a blood quantum is, you will see how ridiculous your argument is.



crazyml -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 4:19:51 AM)

What hubris?



NakisisaX -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 4:50:21 AM)

Ahh the chess move that is deemed "multiculturalism". When Africans in this country decided to learn, appreciate and study their history for the sakes of their children. Up pops the notion of "Not just your history and culture, but everyones and we will control that too" by the education system.
Yes, its detrimental because of the circumstances behind its creation. It is important to learn about other cultures one comes in contact with but its even more important to learn everything about yours, first and foremost by someone that looks like you and is well versed in it.

Atonement. Yes, there should be something in place to atone the past actions of one group over another. How about leaving them the hell alone or implemeting a final solution? No one wants that worthless dollar or another broken treaty or slavery reprarations. Just leave them alone and let them live or wipe them out. If left alone, there will be conflict as there always has been when the oppressed group becomes financial competitors, so you either leave them alone and let the competition beat you or you destroy them. There's no getting past karma or some revenge. The plan was set in motion as soon as there was knowledge of the "New World", so its coming. Just a matter of time.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 5:07:40 AM)

NakisisaX:

Applying a recommendation which was given to me in another thread, I will not speak about African but about my situation. I hope you can understand which would that mean for you.

I was born in Chile, from ancestors coming from Spain, Norway, Germany and the Andes region of South America. Moving father back I am pretty sure I have Maghreb, Central African, Celtic, Latin, Etrusc, Finnish, Inca and other ancestors. Now I live in Germany but I was raised in Valencia (Spain).

I am a software developer, very interested on science. I like to live in cities. I am 40 years old, and therefore my likes for "Queen" and "Depeche Mode" are not uncommon. My parents were teachers in a university and I got a lot of influences from them.

Now, please...
quote:

It is important to learn about other cultures one comes in contact with but its even more important to learn everything about yours


Can you please tell me which is "my culture"?

Valencian? Catalonian (I speak that languange)? Spanish? Chilenan? Inca? European? Western? Middle-class urbanite? Middle-age occidental? University culture (don't laugh, I understand an Indian chair professor of science's tastes and view about society often better as the ones of the people around my flat)? BDSM culture? ... Which?

I consider completely impossible to separate "one" culture from all the ones which influence every person and determinate that this is "the" culture which you "must" priorise. Sorry!



NakisisaX -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 5:13:01 AM)

Thats up to you to decide, but since you named more european cultures than anything else, I'd start there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

NakisisaX:

Applying a recommendation which was given to me in another thread, I will not speak about African but about my situation. I hope you can understand which would that mean for you.

I was born in Chile, from ancestors coming from Spain, Norway, Germany and the Andes region of South America. Moving father back I am pretty sure I have Maghreb, Central African, Celtic, Latin, Etrusc, Finnish, Inca and other ancestors.

I am a software developer, very interested on science. I like to live in cities. I am 40 years old, and therefore my likes for "Queen" and "Depeche Mode" are not uncommon. My parents were teachers in a university and I got a lot of influences from them.

Now, please...
quote:

It is important to learn about other cultures one comes in contact with but its even more important to learn everything about yours


Can you please tell me which is "my culture"?

The Spanish? Chilenan? Inca? European? Western? Middle-class urbanite? Middle-age occidental? University culture (don't laugh, I understand an Indian chair professor of science's tastes and view about society often better as the ones of the people around my flat)? BDSM culture? ... Which?

I consider completely impossible to separate "one" culture from all the ones which influence every person and determinate that this is "the" culture which you "must" priorise. Sorry!





SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 5:20:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX

Thats up to you to decide, but since you named more european cultures than anything else, I'd start there.

Thank you for trying. Really. But...
* I could have names about 30 more, from Technical to fantasy-fan to whatever.
* It is unclear for me why you have to use exactly that level of granularity (Europe, that is, subcontinental ~ and no, Europe is not a continent for me, it is an appendix of Asia). Why not less or... more? Only because of the listing?
* If it is for me to decide... then, your sentence can be translated to "you should concentrate on the culture which you decide"? That means, you should con concentrate in the African, European, or whatever other level of granularity or aspects - you concentrate on what you want. For the sake of your children, etc, as you wrote. Is this what you meant?

I am not trying to be an ass (even if I am succeeding), I just try to transmit you the profound confusion I feel about the very idea of giving a set of cultural characteristics, which any person will only have partially, a moral range ("you should ...") over other characteristics you may have.

I do understand that you should learn about the characteristics you have, more than about the ones you do not have. To know who you are. I truly, truly understand this and I think that your search for your origins has a lot to do with this search for yourself.

Ok. But... is not the election African or European, completely arbitrary? This does not mean "bad". But... optional. Not a "must".

Best regards.



mons -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 5:36:53 AM)

spm

what do you look like the most, there is where you start!  If everyone hunted down all of
their forefathers, it would be a mixed bag, whom do you look like?  spm there is a saying called
a '"throwback"  you can not say you want to be one culturefor your children, but there is a magical thing that happen,
one child may look white and the other as dark as night!!!  This happen in my family my twin and I are
light tone , and the rest of my family is dark!  From my mother side there is light to white, my father side
dark as night and dark brown!  When I say we are light tone I do mean light!  He mention manytimes if we
did not look like his mother he would had thought we were not his, that indeed hurt us!!!!!!
So spm look in the mirror, it will tell a tale for you to read!

mons















Mons 1



DomYngBlk -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 5:37:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Well, we've seen an example of the "new tone" standards in a recent thread:

Race and skin color, which was just locked by VAD.

I think this was perhaps a bit of an over-reaction, but it's all a judgment call, so I don't have any heartburn with it.  And, if it forces some people to more closely consider their words, it's all good to me.

But I think the subject still deserves some discussion, if we can keep the tone at somewhat of a higher level, therefore I've opened another thread.

I'd suggest, in this thread, instead of calling someone a name i.e. "racist, bigot, etc", perhaps it would be more appropriate to label their reasoning as "bigoted" or say "that logic smacks of racism".

Generally, I wouldn't attempt to restart a thread like this.  It can be seen as attempting to over-ride a moderator's judgment, but that is not my intent. Nor do I wish to focus on exactly the same thing as the other thread.

Race is perhaps the most explosive issue in our society today, and because of its sensitivity not nearly as much calm discussions and consideration goes on about it.  Which, in my opinion, is a recipe for an explosion, eventually.

So I think it's worth trying to open the conversation once again, with the caveat that we should be very careful in either taking personal offense or giving personal offense. Taking and giving personal offense does not mean that some people might not take offense at others' words and ideas.  That is the type of "offense" that is the core of a good substantive discussion.  Just that we should all attempt to keep it out of the name-calling stage.

And I wish to change the direction of the discussion a bit as well.

First, I'd prefer to discuss two different streams within this area:

1.  How does multiculturalism affect our future as a society and nation, and

2.  Should concrete legal or structural changes be considered to "atone" for past actions of groups against other groups?  I'm particularly interested in this part of the discussion as it applies to "Native Americans", and not really the entire black slavery parts of our history (although I suspect we'll go there anyway).

To start the discussion, I'd like to make two claim: 

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.

2.  Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

Do you agree or disagree with either of these claims?  Comments?

Firm


I'd say overall we've always been a multicultural society that allows each culture to exist and be nourished within the larger context of society. Whether you are german, italian, croat, serb, hungarian etc etc etc you have communities built to keep that particular culture alive and vibrant if the people want to keep it going. We have no laws making people conform on language or culture and this how it should be. I think caucasians have a problem of thinking the local irish festival and st. pats parade is actually a very muticultural activity. In a society that wasn't thoughtful of that then any activity such as that would be banned.

As far as reparations are concerned. It would be nice if the majority wouldn't legislate what they "think" that each minority would "want" or "need". Rather, put the funds up for reparations and allow each society to do with the funds what they will.



NakisisaX -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 5:43:30 AM)

If it pleases you to name 50 or 60 more, then so be it. I'm only going by what you've given me and what I see in the photo. You named more european countries in your listing so thats what I used. Yes, I'm fully aware that europe os a peninsula. I knew that back in middle school being that I'm from Michigan.
I meant exactly what I said. You can translate it how you please but speaking for myself, I'd rather learn about my origins first than to dive into someone else's, especially if that someone else puts theirs at the forefront by force and adds fantasy to it for their benefit.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX

Thats up to you to decide, but since you named more european cultures than anything else, I'd start there.

Thank you for trying. Really. But...
* I could have names about 30 more, from Technical to fantasy-fan to whatever.
* It is unclear for me why you have to use exactly that level of granularity (Europe, that is, subcontinental ~ and no, Europe is not a continent for me, it is an appendix of Asia). Why not less or... more? Only because of the listing?
* If it is for me to decide... then, your sentence can be translated to "you should concentrate on the culture which you decide"? That means, you should con concentrate in the African, European, or whatever other level of granularity or aspects - you concentrate on what you want. For the sake of your children, etc, as you wrote. Is this what you meant?

I am not trying to be an ass (even if I am succeeding), I just try to transmit you the profound confusion I feel about the very idea of giving a set of cultural characteristics, which any person will only have partially, a moral range ("you should ...") over other characteristics you may have.

I do understand that you should learn about the characteristics you have, more than about the ones you do not have. To know who you are. I truly, truly understand this and I think that your search for your origins has a lot to do with this search for yourself.

Ok. But... is not the election African or European, completely arbitrary? This does not mean "bad". But... optional. Not a "must".

Best regards.





SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 5:50:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX
I'd rather learn about my origins first than to dive into someone else's, especially if that someone else puts theirs at the forefront by force and adds fantasy to it for their benefit.

... which happens often enough, yes, I know.
My problem was with your "should". "You should...". That looked for me like a moral rule, and it confused me because it was hard for me to justify it in moral terms. Justify why the origins (and some of them) are more important than other things, for example, or why a certain granularity (tribe, language...) is less important that other (subcontinent, continent...). If you establish a moral rule ("people should do this, this is good, the opposite is bad") then you have to justify it, IMO.
But if it is a taste, like when I say "men should wear ties more often", then it is ok. You are then not speaking about a real moral obligation, and hence you do not have to support it. Everybody like what she likes.
That was the point.



Real0ne -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 7:23:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX
I'd rather learn about my origins first than to dive into someone else's, especially if that someone else puts theirs at the forefront by force and adds fantasy to it for their benefit.

... which happens often enough, yes, I know.
My problem was with your "should". "You should...". That looked for me like a moral rule, and it confused me because it was hard for me to justify it in moral terms. Justify why the origins (and some of them) are more important than other things, for example, or why a certain granularity (tribe, language...) is less important that other (subcontinent, continent...). If you establish a moral rule ("people should do this, this is good, the opposite is bad") then you have to justify it, IMO.
But if it is a taste, like when I say "men should wear ties more often", then it is ok. You are then not speaking about a real moral obligation, and hence you do not have to support it. Everybody like what she likes.
That was the point.



no justification is needed on my or with regard to my property.  My body and person habits religion and all attributes therein are my property.  The origins of what makes me and or my family the culture of what it is is irrelevant.

I only need to justify anything if I want to make it public law.  If my actions cause no damage in property or equity then you have no standing what so ever to even question it.

What kind of socialist crap are you pushing here?






kalikshama -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 7:26:00 AM)

Fightdirecto and Firm seem to be on opposite ends of the multicultural tolerance spectrum and I find myself somewhere in between.



NakisisaX -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/6/2011 8:01:09 AM)

Morality "should" never be taken out of the equation on learning about self. To me, cultural/ethnic survival is just as important as physical/biological. No indigenous peoples want their history to die out so they ingrain it in their children, because its tied into the biological survival.(What do we hunt, how do we hunt, what else do we eat etc) For the question of why some origins are deemed more important over others, well, thats easy. If mine is hidden or a result of misinformation, than mine takes priority automatically to clear it up. Period.
We're speaking english and since it isn't my mother tongue, your question should be directed to those that imposed it all who don't have english heritage. Its about survival and I can understand that, so in response to that I see nothing wrong with doing the same thing but the difference is me having to unravel the lies told about my history so that others can impose and hype theirs. In reality, I don't have to downplay anyone else's history/culture. It usually speaks for itself.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX
I'd rather learn about my origins first than to dive into someone else's, especially if that someone else puts theirs at the forefront by force and adds fantasy to it for their benefit.

... which happens often enough, yes, I know.
My problem was with your "should". "You should...". That looked for me like a moral rule, and it confused me because it was hard for me to justify it in moral terms. Justify why the origins (and some of them) are more important than other things, for example, or why a certain granularity (tribe, language...) is less important that other (subcontinent, continent...). If you establish a moral rule ("people should do this, this is good, the opposite is bad") then you have to justify it, IMO.
But if it is a taste, like when I say "men should wear ties more often", then it is ok. You are then not speaking about a real moral obligation, and hence you do not have to support it. Everybody like what she likes.
That was the point.





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