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FirmhandKY -> Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 7:16:45 AM)

I just read an interesting short article about how legal secretaries view working for female lawyers:

Not One Legal Secretary Surveyed Preferred Working with Women Partners; Prof Offers Reasons Why

Extracts:

When Chicago-Kent law professor Felice Batlan surveyed 142 legal secretaries at larger law firms in 2009, not one expressed a preference for working with a female partner.

Asked whether they preferred to work for male or female partners or associates, 35 percent preferred working for male partners, 15 percent preferred working for male associates, 3 percent preferred working for female associates, none preferred working for female partners, and 47 percent had no opinion.

Ninety-five percent of the legal secretaries who responded to the online survey were women. Most were middle aged and had considerable experience. They came from firms of more than 100 lawyers.

...

Some secretaries elaborated on why they preferred to work for males, with these survey comments:

• “Females are harder on their female assistants, more detail oriented, and they have to try harder to prove themselves, so they put that on you. And they are passive aggressive where a guy will just tell you the task and not get emotionally involved and make it personal.”

• “I just feel that men are a little more flexible and less emotional than women. This could be because the female partners feel more pressure to perform.”

• “Female attorneys have a tendency to downgrade a legal secretary.”

• “I am a female legal secretary, but I avoid working for women because [they are] such a pain in the ass! They are too emotional and demeaning.”

• “Female attorneys are either mean because they're trying to be like their male counterparts or too nice/too emotional because they can't handle the stress. Either way, their attitude/lack of maturity somehow involves you being a punching bag.”

• Women lawyers have “an air about them.”

...

Batlan suggests that women lawyers may be “in a double-bind situation.” If they don’t behave like males, they are perceived as too emotional, and if they do act like men, they are perceived as putting on airs.

Other survey findings:

• Nearly 71 percent of the surveyed secretaries said the recession had affected their jobs, and nearly 81 percent said their firms had laid off secretaries. Some now worked for more lawyers, some reported decreased benefits, and some reported no or little pay increases. Eighteen percent had been recently laid off.

• Asked about the traits that make a good legal secretary, many indicated that it was important to control their emotions. One secretary listed the traits this way: “Gets to work on time, does the assigned work, hasn't murdered a lawyer by the end of her day.”

• The legal secretaries were generally satisfied with their work schedules. Seventy-five percent worked 30 to 40 hours a week.

• Asked if attorneys respected them, 67 percent of the secretaries said they were respected, and 29 percent said “it depends.”

There is also a longer article from a female lawyers point of view:  Women Lawyers and their Secretaries : An Emotional Sweatshop?

I work with attorneys from time to time.  Most are men.  Three of them over the past couple of years have been women.  The first two, I didn't really see much difference than with men, although one of them was a bit ... particular ... and I didn't like all that much, but she did what she was suppose to do, and seem to know her job.

But, the last one I worked with ... well, let's just say that this article resonated with me a little.  In fact, this specific lawyer has caused me to tell the client that I will no longer accept any work from them if I have to work with her.

However, this incident and then these articles got me to thinking about women who are "in charge" of things, or the boss or supervisor of men.  On reflection, I don't really remember ever ... ever ... having worked under a women.  Perhaps I'm forgetting some when I was younger and first getting into the work environment ... nahh, none.

So, my question is:  how have you found working for a women, in comparison to a man?  Do you find things similar to what the legal secretaries found?  Or is this a lot of fluff about nothing?

Would you prefer to work for a woman, or a man, all other things being equal?

Firm



servantforuse -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 7:22:08 AM)

In my years at AT&T I had 4 women supervisors, two black and two white. They all knew their jobs and I had no trouble working for them. It has been my experience that women have a harder time working for women than men do.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 7:34:14 AM)

This is exactly what the office manager at my old firm told me when I was starting out. She said it was nearly impossible to find an assistant who would work for a woman Atty. Pissed me off, at the time. Nonetheless, That has actually been my experience, but in this article, they blame it on the lawyer. In my experience, the assistant was usually equally, if not more, at fault. The men could just ask their secretary to do something. I was expected to ask about their kids, and their weekend, oh and by the way, if you have time, could you type this for me? It was hard, because I am not exactly a warm and fuzzy kind of a chick. I compensated by being too forgiving of mistakes, which has led to some disasters.
After 15 years, I finally have the secretary of my dreams. I have had one other good one in a career that was kind of like Murphy Brown's when it came to assistants. The quality my two good secretaries shared? Interestingly, I think of them as being very submissive personalities, and eager to please.



HannahLynn -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 7:37:00 AM)

i'm not in the least surprised. women are fucking hard on other women. you think we're bitches to you guys, try being a woman who has displeased her social circle. she-devils interbred with hell-cats mated to demon-dogs comes to mind as a descriptor.

also, women, especially professionals or ones in powerful positions also tend to be a lot more fucking paranoid about credit for doing the shit they do being given to somebody else. now add to all that the fact that women are competitive to a degree that makes the fucking stanley cup play-offs look like a camp fire sing-along, and they are doubly so when it comes to male attention and approval, well it just makes fucking sense now doesn't it.

e2a: oh fuck, there's a question at the end. sorry. i'd prefer to work for a woman, see i like to be left the fuck alone to do my job so i often have to sort of scare my supervisors a little and women are a fuck of a easier to intimidate, that and if it comes to a bitch-fest, well let's just say that  i can go toe to toe with the best of them.



Marc2b -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 7:43:48 AM)

When I saw the title of this thread I thought for sure it was by Kevin.

---------------------

I did work under women a couple of times in my life. I don't like it because it's hard to see and smells funny after a while. [;)]

Just kidding.

Seriously... the first was at a cab company I worked at for six years, the other was at a liquor store I worked only a few months at. In the latter case the only problem I had with it was the distraction... she was so god damn hot... but she was a thorough going professional (and her fiance was an ex-marine [>:]). In the former case she's a lesbian so nothing was going to come of it anyway. She's a very easy going personality and we bacame good friends, part of a circle of friends that partied together regularly. I still connect with her now and then.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 7:48:37 AM)

Working FOR a woman has never been a problem. Women as coworkers? Let's just say with some of them I would go home and count the knife handles sticking out from between my shoulder blades.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 7:50:12 AM)

Hmm. I actually bent over backwards to ignore some things I probably shouldn't have, just because I didn't want a reputation as a bitch. And yet, that was the reputation I got. I noticed that I was especially unpopular with the women secretaries who were pretty ambitious, and thought their jobs were beneath them.
I had one assistant that my partners stuck me with, that I absolutely hated. She fucked up constantly, she was a bitch, and I got a bad vibe from her. I finally said I would do my own clerical work, thank you very much. My partners still wouldn't fire her, even though I insisted. Pissed me off, I almost quit over that. Then it turned out, she was embezzling from us. Oddly, in a firm full of legal geniuses, I was the only one that picked up that there was something off about her. Oh well, I got to say "I told you so" to my partners every day for a year. And I sued the bitch for the money she stole, and I have been garnishing her wages and bank account periodically ever since. That was my worst assistant. Hardly my fault.
I am so nice to my assistant now, she is perfect, and I would hate to lose her.



HannahLynn -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:03:23 AM)

quote:

Oddly, in a firm full of legal geniuses, I was the only one that picked up that there was something off about her.
not really, good legal minds are often very pedantic and plodding, they rarely skip a step or jump to conclusions. they don't tend to make good fucking investigators and they tend to be very literal and not overly fucking intuitive.
quote:

Oh well, I got to say "I told you so" to my partners every day for a year.
this demonstrates another reason why many don't fucking like working for or with women. they tend to be the sort of person who would do this sort of thing.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:09:44 AM)

I have worked in environments that were predominantly male (as an administrator at an engineering school) and predominantly female (as a division head for an association). I far prefer working with and around males. They are less chatty, less emotional, and tend to be highly project and goal oriented. You do have to earn their respect, b/c some will try to steam roll right over you, or be incredibly condescending.

When I worked for the association (99% female) I had the rep as being "super bitch but she's really good at her job so we deal with it." Everyone, underlings, colleagues, bosses (I had many) knew I was a "take no prisoners" type.  I found all the sniping, gossiping, overly dramatic and emotional crap very draining.

I've found (as a general rule) females I have worked for/with/over if they respect you, then they are also jealous of you. And some can be very passive aggressive about it. Yuck !!

Some of my best employees have been females, however, they respected me, were not jealous of my position (they didn't want it),  and enjoyed my sense of humor, since I tried making people work their absolute asses off "fun." Not always easy to do.

My favorite bosses have all been male, except for one female professor who took over as interim head at the engineering school. She was awesome. She became the Dean of Engineering  and still holds that title. Just a wonderful person.










Iamsemisweet -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:11:23 AM)

Oh, but it was so worth, because I got my secretary now out of it.

The embezzling incident came at a time when my partners had the bright idea that we should hire girls fresh out of high school, pay them nothing, and expect them to do the jobs of experienced legal secretaries. It was hard on them and me, and pretty unfair. After the embezzling incident (altho she was a little older. Still had no experience, though)' I insisted we hire someone experienced and pay them a decent wage. That is how I got my assistant now, and she makes my life so great! I make a huge effort to keep her happy and vice versa. Now, who was mean, the guys who threw inexperienced people to the wolves or me, who is willing to pay someone who is good at their job?

She even talks to me in baby talk. I thought I would find that annoying after a while, but I don't. She is so sweet.



TreasureKY -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:16:42 AM)

To preempt the crowd who would come in to ask, "don't you two talk at home?"... Firm posted this while I was busy elsewhere this morning and I wasn't aware of it otherwise.  My comments are for general conversation with the group and not directed toward my better half.   [;)]

I actually worked for several years as a legal secretary.  While it was not for a firm of the size mentioned in the article, there were four partners and two associates.  As one of only three secretaries, I did work for all at various times, the one female partner was my primary responsibility.

In my general working career, I've worked for both men and women.   At this point, I'd be hard-pressed to even name all the places I've worked, but I'll hazard a guess that I've worked for more men than women.

With that in mind...

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So, my question is:  how have you found working for a women, in comparison to a man?  Do you find things similar to what the legal secretaries found?  Or is this a lot of fluff about nothing?

Would you prefer to work for a woman, or a man, all other things being equal?


I prefer working for men.

The female law firm partner that I worked for was not really "bad" to work for, but she was older and I believe that makes a difference.  Generally I find the women I worked for to be driven to prove themselves.  Couple that with higher expectations, and women have a tendency to be a bit more demanding.

Women can also be more judgmental towards other women... and on a personal level, too.   Rarely would a man tell a female employee that she's wearing an unflattering color, or should wear more makeup, or should try her hair in a different style.  I've also been told that I should go to college and do more with my life... that I was capable of doing more meaningful work.  [&:]

I can't say that I've found women supervisors to be more "emotional", per se... but most didn't have a very good sense of humor.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:25:52 AM)

How many lawyers do you actually know? And how well do you know them?
It is true, we try not to skip steps. That leads to malpractice claims.
quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynn

quote:

Oddly, in a firm full of legal geniuses, I was the only one that picked up that there was something off about her.
not really, good legal minds are often very pedantic and plodding, they rarely skip a step or jump to conclusions. they don't tend to make good fucking investigators and they tend to be very literal and not overly fucking intuitive.
quote:

Oh well, I got to say "I told you so" to my partners every day for a year.
this demonstrates another reason why many don't fucking like working for or with women. they tend to be the sort of person who would do this sort of thing.




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:29:37 AM)

women are pretty terrible to each other; i don't find this surprising at all. the times i've had female teachers and female bosses, i've been miserable. they nitpick you for no reason because i guess they think they have to prove they're "tough" like the men. oooor for whatever reason, they don't like your hairdo that day, or they don't like that you have bigger boobs, or something silly. 

i dunno, women just have a talent for two-facedness, passive-aggressiveness, and manipulation. =p men have plenty of their own bad traits, don't get me wrong, but these three things seem to be where women rule -- at least in relation to other women.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:37:06 AM)

I am a CPA, and have worked for attorneys as a business manager, besides doing other work over the years. I will always prefer working with women--they actually DO WORK!! My male colleagues defer to my skills, but also want to be coddled, as if I were their secretary.

I had one ghastly snake pit experience at a small firm (where I got fired for getting sick, yay!) and the office manager totally set the tone. It was something off a bad tv show. Never had an experience like that before or since, thank heavens. I am willing to admit that my experience might be odd, and it might be something that I "generate". Many Years Ago, I reallized that I could make my life easier by getting along with the folks I couldn't stand. I mean really making an EFFORT to like them. The place I just left has a reputation in the district for being snotty/uppity/cliquish. BECAUSE WE GOT ALONG. That snake pit backstabbing didnt fly, and anyone who wanted to move into our office, secretary or pro, had to pass that test.

I have stuck to small firms, but I have heard the horror stories of producing billable hours...and having to patch up errors made by clerks who were not what they might have been. That's the joy of being a professional---you get the credit for the good, but the blame for the bad, even when the bad is your assistant dropping the ball. YAY!!

I am back to having my own place now, and it's a good thing.



JanahX -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:37:28 AM)

I work in a place where it is ALL women.
At times it can be difficult - but, on the other hand, I have made GREAT friends there.

There are a "few" that like to lay down the drama ... but thank god my boss gets them to mellow out pretty fast. (tells them to knock it off or they can go find work somewhere else)

Ive worked for guys before - some were cool and some were not. The ones that wernt - it was usually due to sexual harrassment. (Oh if I only had a mini-recording divice at the time(s).

I have had some cool female bosses and some that were not.

Its kind of like everything in life .. some things you like and want to be around. Some you dont.

For me it has to do with the person. Not the sex of the person.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Working For A Woman ...(NOT A KEVIN THREAD!) (10/25/2011 8:40:18 AM)

My general observation about men and women is that men are more likely to let "the little stuff" slide.  Most woman seem to have a memory like a friggin' elephant, especially about slights, insults, complaints, or what-have-you. 

And not only remember, but are willing to use it days, months, years, or decades later.  [8D]

My own attitude, and of most men I know is that that if we let it slide, we just forget it (or at least the specific details), and go from there.

(yes, this is a generalization, and all people are different.  YMMV etc, etc, et al and so forth).

Firm



hlen5 -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:46:12 AM)

I have women friends, but I don't do well with groups of women in general. I prefer male majority work places.

As far as bosses, if I had to choose I would say I'd prefer a woman boss.

ETA: "When I saw the title of this thread I thought for sure it was by Kevin." That was my first thought too!!




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 8:56:06 AM)

Okay.

I am dropping the F bomb. FEMINISM.

I am of an age where the "accepted professions" for "what do you want to be when you grow up, little girl?" were MOMMY, TEACHER, SECRETARY, NURSE.

The nurturing professions? Maybe. The ones where the slack is picked up, the details dealt with, all that jazz. The secondary jobs, where there is responsibility without authority. If you are in a secondary position, you grab for what power you can---and INFORMATION IS POWER. So, yes, never forget. Wait and watch. Manipulate. These are the skills of the person who needs to make her own way. Or his own way. Politics is politics, right?

Who remembers the 80's? How about the 70's? I do!! Go out to your netflix and rent "Mother, Jugs, and Speed", a silly comedy, and "Working Girl", ditto. You will learn more about the how women were viewed in the workplace in those two movies than in any scholarly study. That shit is real life.

That history is RECENT, and we are not going to get over those patterns in a minute.

Hib, who did not waste her time while she was in college.



HannahLynn -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 9:05:28 AM)

quote:

How many lawyers do you actually know?
a surprisingly large number, i've had a few run ins with the law.
quote:

And how well do you know them?
well enough to know one from the other from the taste of their cum.

pillow talk reveals a fuck of a lot about a person if you really pay attention.



tj444 -> RE: Working For A Woman ... (10/25/2011 9:12:55 AM)

Well, i dont like working for/under anyone so i dont. lol

In the past i have had to work with some women and thanks but no thanks. I also have had women work for me and they were too tempermental (pmsing or boyfriend problems- yes, had one like that) or they had no loyalty. I really dont like babysitting anyone.

I learned a long time ago that i dont like female doctors, they dont have the empathy you would think they would when dealing with a female patient, men actually have more. So far, i havent found any good female lawyers, but i judge all lawyers pretty strictly.

I think over all, i much prefer dealing with a guy than a female.



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