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RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 1:48:54 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
"Just in case" ends with people in camps or worse. We have seen that before. Not a path we want to head down. Native Americans, Japanese, jews. Take your pick.


Not quite. Dispersing crowds is a world away from the examples you mention. Not even in the same ballpark. I can throw out some examples too -- L.A. riots in the 90's, riots in Cinncinatti, etc. The potential for harm in a riot is far worse than the small few who get arrested for refusing lawful orders to disperse.


So far they are peacefully assembling. Until such time as they are no longer being peaceful, they are within their rights.

From what I'm hearing there was no problem with them being there until now, when the mayor decided he wanted them gone.

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RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 2:01:56 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
So far they are peacefully assembling. Until such time as they are no longer being peaceful, they are within their rights.


Not quite. As I've already pointed out, the constitution is not a "do whatever you want with no consequences" card. The 1st Amendment does not stipulate where they can and cannot gather. There are always limitations. These people are finding out where those limits are. Just as you cannot shout "fire" in a crowded theater, you also cannot "gather" in the middle of a freeway, for example. If the places they are gathering have ordinances or laws prohibiting it, they have to leave...or be arrested.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 2:36:22 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
Well, we obviously have differences in coping abilities.  I don't find disagreeing with someone else's opinion, or even believing them to be misguided, as sufficient reason to be alarmed.


I think large groups of people "occupying" several major cities, with at least one third of their number admitting to belief in resorting to violence to be a problem. What you have are several riots waiting to happen.

So fucking what? A potential riot isn't illegal and police have no right to try and break up a peaceful gathering even if they believe it will become violent. Police don't get to arrest people simply because the police think they might commit a crime in the future. The police certainly cannot restrict the rights I risked my life to defend simply because of the possibility of rioting.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 2:52:42 AM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
So far they are peacefully assembling. Until such time as they are no longer being peaceful, they are within their rights.


Not quite. As I've already pointed out, the constitution is not a "do whatever you want with no consequences" card. The 1st Amendment does not stipulate where they can and cannot gather. There are always limitations. These people are finding out where those limits are. Just as you cannot shout "fire" in a crowded theater, you also cannot "gather" in the middle of a freeway, for example. If the places they are gathering have ordinances or laws prohibiting it, they have to leave...or be arrested.


Selective enforcement. They have been there how long now? My guess is the mayor got a call and did a 180.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 4:25:40 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

There was a protester in New York with a sign saying corporations should provide him with free tuition. For what? What makes these people think they are entitled to something they didn't earn?



There are many corporations that offer tuition programs as a job benefit.

Because it also benefits the company by having employees with higher skill levels.

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RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 4:31:34 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It isn't about whether they have a right to simply be given things, Darque. It about whether they have the right to peaceably assemble, regardless of the substance of their petetion.



Damn!  Don't go and get all sensible on me or we won't have anything to argue about anymore.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 4:52:14 AM   
FirmhandKY


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So, OK, I see no frigging link to any story, so here:

MSNBC:
Atlanta police arrest around 50 anti-Wall Street protesters

CBS:
"Occupy Atlanta" camp cleared, dozens arrested
October 26, 2011 1:35 AM

Atlanta Journal Constitution:
Video from local channel 2

LA Times:
Occupy Oakland: Police raid encampment, arrest dozens
October 25, 2011

Firm



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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 4:57:55 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
So far they are peacefully assembling. Until such time as they are no longer being peaceful, they are within their rights.


Not quite. As I've already pointed out, the constitution is not a "do whatever you want with no consequences" card. The 1st Amendment does not stipulate where they can and cannot gather. There are always limitations. These people are finding out where those limits are. Just as you cannot shout "fire" in a crowded theater, you also cannot "gather" in the middle of a freeway, for example. If the places they are gathering have ordinances or laws prohibiting it, they have to leave...or be arrested.


What if there is a fire in that crowded theater?

I can't warn anyone?

I get really tired of people citing this phrase as some type of legal precedent.

Oliver Wendell Holmes simply used this as a metaphor in his opinion in a case that had nothing to do with fires or theaters.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 5:06:44 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So fucking what? A potential riot isn't illegal and police have no right to try and break up a peaceful gathering even if they believe it will become violent. Police don't get to arrest people simply because the police think they might commit a crime in the future. The police certainly cannot restrict the rights I risked my life to defend simply because of the possibility of rioting.


Well golly gee. I guess your side's point is moot since here it is 7:04 am and the first topic mentioned on the national news was that the tear gas and such was used by police after "peacefully gathering protesters" started throwing rocks and bottles at cops.

Peaceful gathering my ass. As I said, the "potential" for violence in large groups of people when it's already confirmed that 31% believe in using said violence is more than enough reason to order a crowd to disperse. But hey...I kinda just wish the cops would have waited until the riot got going full-swing, then they could have let the bullets fly and thinned the "stupid" herd a bit.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 5:08:27 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Selective enforcement. They have been there how long now? My guess is the mayor got a call and did a 180.


And? The reason is irrelevant. If anything the fact that they've been there that long is more than enough reason. They've had their "fun" it's time to move on and find a new cause. We know from our experience with the most recent armed conflicts that the country's collective attention span doesn't last long anyway.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 5:09:29 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
There are many corporations that offer tuition programs as a job benefit.

Because it also benefits the company by having employees with higher skill levels.


Yeah, one of those "corporations" is called the military. And the catch to your point is you have to WORK to earn those programs. The companies aren't just going to point at Mr. Random Protester and say "hey, would YOU like free tuition?"

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 5:11:22 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
What if there is a fire in that crowded theater?

I can't warn anyone?


I think you already know the answer to that. But if you yell it and it causes a stampede of people and some get hurt, YOU are on the hook for the damages.

By the same token, if you want to gather some friends and walk onto the freeway to "peacefully assemble"....be my guest. But don't be surprised when you become one with the roadway when traffic can't stop in time.

There are consequences for *every* action, be they in the bill of rights or not.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 6:16:49 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

This is insane.  This isn't supposed to happen in America.  The police and their corporate masters are out of control.


You're right, scores of people expecting/demanding free stuff shouldn't happen in America. Unfortunately it is. Hopefully they all knock it off and get jobs soon.


What exactly is this "free stuff" being expected/demanded?

Bullshiter is, as bullsheter does.


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 7:04:51 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
What exactly is this "free stuff" being expected/demanded?

Bullshiter is, as bullsheter does.


Already resorting to name-calling, hmmm? Typical. I see you've also already resorted to not reading prior posts. *Many* journalists have gone out to cover these events. Look at the signs. As I mentioned in a previous post, one interviewer sat and talked with a guy whose sign basically said he believed the corporations should pay for his tuition. Sounds awfully socialist to me. Since he viewed himself as "one of the 99%," he felt the "1%" *owed* him something.

Funny thing though, about that 1%....they got there by working for it, building their empires and, in some cases, exploiting loopholes in *our* beloved democratic, capitalist system. I seriously doubt anyone here would take the road less traveled, given the opportunity. If you'd argue that, then when you win the lottery, I'll expect my free check for a million bucks from you as soon as you can get it to me.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 7:40:51 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

exploiting loopholes in *our* beloved democratic, capitalist system.


And thats part of the problem.

And guess what, I have no issue with having a free college system.



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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 8:13:45 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Darque, you wouldn't happen to be a tea party type, would you?

I seemed to remember that a few months ago, the TP was getting excluded from a lot of events, and were having a hard time organizing their rallies because of officials not cooperating. They were screaming their heads off about the interference with their first amendment rights.

It seems like if there is anything the left and right should agree on is that the right to peaceable assembly is being dismantled. But the TPers are too busy screaming about the hippies wanting something for nothing to figure it out..

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 8:39:28 AM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

Well golly gee. I guess your side's point is moot since here it is 7:04 am and the first topic mentioned on the national news was that the tear gas and such was used by police after "peacefully gathering protesters" started throwing rocks and bottles at cops.


I watched the whole thing go down live last night, and I'll throw in my two cents on this.

The protesters were already being kettled by SWAT and riot-geared officers, and being told to disperse well before objects were being thrown. It's also interesting that having watched the whole thing live on about three different news networks and the protests' own live streams, I didn't see any objects thrown first; unless you can provide evidence that supports the assertion the protesters were getting violent first, it remains a matter of hearsay. Yesterday morning, the police had already surrounded and infiltrated the camp (in pre-dawn hours when protesters were asleep and unaware of imminent police action) and were taking down tents prior to objects being thrown. The police actions, not the protesters', initiated the escalation of the encounter to violence.

Furthermore, one must also consider proportionality of the response. Rocks and bottles were thrown at officers wearing riot control gear and carrying shields; outside thrown objects, the protesters were completely unarmed. No guns, and no explosives or incendiaries. The police responded as if the crowd were armed.

quote:

Peaceful gathering my ass. As I said, the "potential" for violence in large groups of people when it's already confirmed that 31% believe in using said violence is more than enough reason to order a crowd to disperse.


If what the crowd believes is key opposed to how the crowd acts, then why are riot suppression tactics not used against the tea party protests? After all, a large percentage of them support violence as well (ignore the Olbermann stuff, the key is the poll result that shows the percent of tea partiers that support violence) and the tea party has a well-documented history of advocating violence and using violent language, but have actually armed themselves during protests as well.

I also noticed you discussed the limitations to the First Amendment. An astute observer would know the Constitutionally-protected right to speech and assembly stops with imminent lawless action (Brandenberg v. Ohio). Moreover, as elaborated within that case the imminent lawless action must be violent. In other words, civil disobedience is still Constitutionally-protected given it may involve violation of law but is fundamentally non-violent.

quote:

But hey...I kinda just wish the cops would have waited until the riot got going full-swing, then they could have let the bullets fly and thinned the "stupid" herd a bit.


Stay classy, bro.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 8:53:07 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

If I did "fight," I would not be surprised to land in jail because of it.
Note the operative word here, but not to worry, he wouldn't. Darque isn't the sort to do something that might involve risk, he's even afraid to date women he hasn't paid.

That's right Mr. Breast-cancer-doesn't-matter-because-its-a-slit's-disease, some of us remember your previous trolling forays.


< Message edited by Arpig -- 10/26/2011 8:55:48 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 9:13:11 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It isn't about whether they have a right to simply be given things, Darque. It about whether they have to the right to peaceably assemble, regardless of the substance of their petetion.


And when the growing numbers of protest zombies inevitably turn violent? Or what about when they become crime victims themselves?


Excuse me... when did we start arresting people because they might commit a crime?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/26/2011 9:16:34 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Funny thing though, about that 1%....they got there by working for it,


You would not happen to have any sort of validation for that crock of shit would you?

building their empires and, in some cases, exploiting loopholes in *our* beloved democratic, capitalist system.


Perhaps you could show me the part of the constitution that outlines that "democratic, capitalist system"


I seriously doubt anyone here would take the road less traveled, given the opportunity.

Your opinion is that everyone on cm is a criminal???Why do you think because you are a criminal and appove of criminal behaviour everyone else is a criminal?

If you'd argue that, then when you win the lottery, I'll expect my free check for a million bucks from you as soon as you can get it to me.

The ows crowd claims that the 1 % who own 95% of he pie are not paying their fair share...how does that translate to me giving you anything?

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Profile   Post #: 60
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