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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 9:56:39 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe
Maybe so but I still find it good that people are finally pissed off enough to not accept the status quo. imo that's a good thing. They may get little done but acting like good little sheep gets NOTHING changed.

well,.. imo they act like good little sheep when they vote.. cuz again,.. there is no one to vote for..

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 9:59:29 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
tj444, your assessment seems to be that nothing we do matters. But we CAN make changes. When I get on the bus, I don't have to sit in the back anymore because decades ago, someone did something about that. People who did peaceful protests and marches ended up changing actual policy. The PEOPLE.

It used to be that abortion was illegal, that gays couldn't marry anywhere or serve openly in the military, you get the point. These things didn't chance because the shadowy Illuminati's heart grew 3 sizes that day. WE made it happen.

yabbut... you werent up against wall street those times... You are this time and they have all the politicians bought, paid for and hog tied with a purdy little bow on them..

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 10:00:26 AM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe
Maybe so but I still find it good that people are finally pissed off enough to not accept the status quo. imo that's a good thing. They may get little done but acting like good little sheep gets NOTHING changed.

well,.. imo they act like good little sheep when they vote.. cuz again,.. there is no one to vote for..


I agree. Voting is pointless especially with the US system. Same thing here in Quebec, Charest will keep getting re-elected as long as there is noone else to vote for. I like OWS much more.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 10:06:24 AM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray
tj444, your assessment seems to be that nothing we do matters. But we CAN make changes. When I get on the bus, I don't have to sit in the back anymore because decades ago, someone did something about that. People who did peaceful protests and marches ended up changing actual policy. The PEOPLE.

It used to be that abortion was illegal, that gays couldn't marry anywhere or serve openly in the military, you get the point. These things didn't chance because the shadowy Illuminati's heart grew 3 sizes that day. WE made it happen.

yabbut... you werent up against wall street those times... You are this time and they have all the politicians bought, paid for and hog tied with a purdy little bow on them..


That "oh well we can't do anything why bother" is exactly what they're counting on. Maybe it won't work THIS time, sometimes it takes more than one try, but things definitely WON'T change if people don't try at all.


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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 10:13:53 AM   
HannahLynn


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quote:

These things didn't chance because the shadowy Illuminati's heart grew 3 sizes that day. WE made it happen.
no, it happened because the corporations saw a fucking profit in it, or at the least saw no loss in allowing it.

you want to talk abortions? fine. somebody makes and sells the supplies, drugs, and equipment required to perform them, right? and it isn't some little mom & pop outfit crafting them in the back shed.

there's nothing shadowy about it, the fuckers are right out in the fucking open. until you start shooting the fuckers, the only change you will get is the change they can make a buck on, or some temporary sops to shut you the fuck up for a few years till they can quietly take it away again.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 10:24:06 AM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

He's not trying to change the minds of those people. He's saying that he's glad that those people are being exposed. for what they are.



That was a blanket statement, not directed towards Jay Smooth or his comments. The people who refuse to take note of OWS's grievances are pretty well unreachable, as far as rational dialog and persuasive arguments backed by evidence goes.

Maybe we should find the One Muslim Investment Banker out there and start screaming he's a terrorist manipulating the system to buy out the government, institute sharia law, and make the US the 13th Caliphate. :D

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 10:48:37 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe
That "oh well we can't do anything why bother" is exactly what they're counting on. Maybe it won't work THIS time, sometimes it takes more than one try, but things definitely WON'T change if people don't try at all.

well,... I guess thats why I dont plan to stay here in the US.. I dont see anything of any consequence changing..

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 10:53:25 AM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe
That "oh well we can't do anything why bother" is exactly what they're counting on. Maybe it won't work THIS time, sometimes it takes more than one try, but things definitely WON'T change if people don't try at all.

well,... I guess thats why I dont plan to stay here in the US.. I dont see anything of any consequence changing..


So don't even bother trying? I guess you'll just accept whatever system is in place whereever it is you're going. If it's Canada you should know that life under Harper isn't paradise. It's better than the US but he is essentially Bush only more intelligent.


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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 11:11:07 AM   
HannahLynn


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quote:

If it's Canada you should know that life under Harper isn't paradise.
i don't know, life is pretty fucking good here. there are jobs available, there's no fucking rash of foreclosures, and the cops aren't beating the fuck out of people and firing rubber bullets at them. it ain't paradise, but it could be a fuck of a lot worse.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 11:16:32 AM   
TheFireWithinMe


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Status: offline 		Yeah and life is just one big paradise. Can you honestly say that NONE of that EVER happens? Besides I wrote that it's BETTER here but Harper's still Bush Jr. the fucking thing is there is noone better to vote for.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 11:29:21 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe
So don't even bother trying? I guess you'll just accept whatever system is in place whereever it is you're going. If it's Canada you should know that life under Harper isn't paradise. It's better than the US but he is essentially Bush only more intelligent.

I am happy Harper is PM, he is not perfect but he is the first PM to even give a shit about the west. And he is also much more intelligent than what the liberals have. The Liberals are why I started thinking about leaving Canada in the first place. But, I dont see returning to Canada regardless now, i am headed in a different direction.

I have looked at other systems/places and am only interested in the ones that are acceptable to me. Its not Canada or the US. Its a big world out there...

ETA- Do you really think that there would be a OWS if the economy in the US hadnt tanked so much so fast? Once the economy improves, OWS will disappear imo.

< Message edited by tj444 -- 10/29/2011 11:34:35 AM >

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 12:33:27 PM   
HannahLynn


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quote:

Can you honestly say that NONE of that EVER happens?
it isn't fucking happening right now is it?

quote:

there is noone better to vote for.
there never is babe, there never fucking is. the only difference is the corporations haven't subverted the system quite so thoroughly in canada yet, we were mostly irrelevant to them for a long time because there just fucking wasn't enough of us to cause them any real trouble or to make them any real serious money. we were an afterthought, but they have started paying attention and are buying the pols up left right and centre and changing the rules to suit them. canada's just a little behind the states is all.


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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 12:39:12 PM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

it isn't fucking happening right now is it?


Who knows, just because we haven't heard about it doesn't mean it isn't. My point is that we aren't the polar opposite of the US, shit happens here too.


quote:

there never is babe, there never fucking is. the only difference is the corporations haven't subverted the system quite so thoroughly in canada yet, we were mostly irrelevant to them for a long time because there just fucking wasn't enough of us to cause them any real trouble or to make them any real serious money. we were an afterthought, but they have started paying attention and are buying the pols up left right and centre and changing the rules to suit them. canada's just a little behind the states is all.


Abso-fuckin-lutely which is why I've stopped voting. It is so pointless it knocks me on my ass. People need to open their eyes and realize that having elections gives us the illusion of effecting change when in fact it changes nothing.


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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 12:40:23 PM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

I am happy Harper is PM, he is not perfect but he is the first PM to even give a shit about the west.


He doesn't give a shit about the west, he gives a shit about being re-elected.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 12:52:02 PM   
Epytropos


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Status: offline 		People get the government they deserve, and they get the government they want. The typical American, even the self-professed libertarians, want to be controlled, want the government to keep their lives secure and predictable. They don't like freedom, they don't want freedom, and they won't take freedom. Half of OWS wants more government, not less. They don't want to bring down crony capitalism, they just want a slice of the crony pie. Are there exceptions to that? Absolutely. Are they sufficiently numerous to matter? Absolutely not.

I wouldn't move to Canada for the same reason. For all the rhetoric, I honestly don't think Canadians and Americans are that far apart, and in terms of a desire for freedom I see even less difference.

You're right when you say that other places will always have problems too, and I completely expect to spend my life being politically active to change things for the better no matter where I live, but the difference is that there are other places which have fundamentally different attitudes towards those problems. The problems that I see in America are seen by most as at worst minor issues which we might want to address at some point and at best as actual positive forces in our country. The average Czech, when told of the sorts of things we endure in America, cannot fathom how the Land of the Free tolerates such things. These things are anathema to them. The problems in their system are minor compared to the problems in ours, and they are working to fix them while we work to worsen ours.

The thing is, I don't see it as my right or my responsibility to force freedom on those who do not wish it. If I were to go into politics and push through the changes that I see as desirable for America, the majority of the American population would see me as a villain, as a person who is ruining the country as they wish to see it. Who am I to try and force that on them? They have a right to their version of an ideal nation just as I do, and so I see it as perfectly reasonable to seek out a body politic which wants what I want out of the future.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 2:34:28 PM   
pyroaquatic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sorry guys,that sort of thinking strikes me as a lose/lose proposition....you are basically removing your piece from the chessboard


There are many chessboards of supposedly infinite dimensions.

Yes, I would move my little pawn of a piece if I started off looking at fifteen queens. With the advent of the internet all of the pawns that have been communicating and have realized that the boards have been blocked off from each other until now and all we can see is what we are fed... fifteen little queens and one king not even on the board (impossible to checkmate).

Now the pawns can see that there are multitudes of pawns just like them and suddenly the board becomes more expansive. Instead of simply bum rushing where the king could be the pawns simply demand to have equal point value and fair advancement not based on an estimated value determined non-consensually based on other players who have played before you.

If they do not we can simply remove ourselves out of reach of Institutionalized Feeds and this influence of corruption that has been impossible to checkmate.

Some say that a third of the country sympathizing is nothing. Now imagine a third of the country migrating away from it physically (if they can afford the passports....).

How unsettling is that thought? A third of the country leaving behind supposed projections of Prosperity when in fact it has been siphoned away because of policies enacted before you were even born. Suddenly your point value as a pawn is 0.01 and it does not really matter WHAT I do with my piece. Take it or leave it.

It has almost become impossible to advance due to contrived rules and sheer and utter chaos already in place before the Occupy movement started.

But... this is not a game.... and we are not pawns. We are "We the People"



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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 3:12:44 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe

quote:

I am happy Harper is PM, he is not perfect but he is the first PM to even give a shit about the west.


He doesn't give a shit about the west, he gives a shit about being re-elected.

As someone that grew up in Alberta, I believe he does give a shit about the west.
He lived in Alberta for many years (before making his run as leader of the Conservatives), he worked with Preston Manning, he married an Albertan, his kids grew up there. Sure, hes a politician and he needs to get elected to do his job but imo he does what is best for Canada and he is the only one that has the stength and guts to stand up to the US when Canada needs him to. Gawd knows the last 3+ Liberal leaders dont have the guts to.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 3:20:00 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Status: offline 		If we all voted NDP it would change the game. It may not fix everything, but the present powers that be would have to play by a whole new set of rules, things would be less stacked in their favour.

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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 3:24:16 PM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe

quote:

I am happy Harper is PM, he is not perfect but he is the first PM to even give a shit about the west.


He doesn't give a shit about the west, he gives a shit about being re-elected.

As someone that grew up in Alberta, I believe he does give a shit about the west.
He lived in Alberta for many years (before making his run as leader of the Conservatives), he worked with Preston Manning, he married an Albertan, his kids grew up there. Sure, hes a politician and he needs to get elected to do his job but imo he does what is best for Canada and he is the only one that has the stength and guts to stand up to the US when Canada needs him to. Gawd knows the last 3+ Liberal leaders dont have the guts to.


One of the first things he did was increase military spending, in what way is that helping the west or any Canadians at all for that matter. Christ on a pizza he was salivating he was to eager to send troops out to fight. He's a more intelligent Bush ffs.


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RE: The PERFECT sum-up of Occupy Wall Street - 10/29/2011 3:55:01 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe
One of the first things he did was increase military spending, in what way is that helping the west or any Canadians at all for that matter. Christ on a pizza he was salivating he was to eager to send troops out to fight. He's a more intelligent Bush ffs.

As I said before, he is not perfect and I dont agree with everything he is done but quite frankly, i dont see how increasing military spending (considering how badly equiped our military was) is anything positive or negative to any particular province. That is not imo, a west or east thing. Btw, he was an economist and never wanted to be a politician in the first place.

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