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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/10/2011 6:04:24 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: onedeceptivesub

thank you to everyone for all of your caring advice and talking issues. it is complicated because he was not married to the mom who was a sub and the boy is now with his grandparents who are not honoring the visitation that was previously awarded so it is a big mess.

he's had to fill out this huge questionnaire and yes, i know it all should be his decision but if i go there and am new to the mix i can't help but feel it would possibly mess things up worse and then even worse if i ended up getting that kind of questionnaire to answer.

thank you again for everyone who shared advice.


So what you are saying is that neither parent was given custody of this child. Their lack of marriage doesn't really complicate things as much as you think. However, the fact that custody wasn't given to this man you are considering involvement with should be of concern.

Bible belt or not, parents will still be a first choice over grandparents unless there is a reason. If the court didn't deem him competant, why not? If he chose not to pursue custody, why not? If he isn't competant to raise his own kid, how competant can he be to "master" a sub? If he let his own kid go, sorry, but my opinion is that is a scummy person. Also, exactly how attached, dedicated and loyal do you think a person who has no dedication to their own offspring can be to you?


Ok, first, I was talking in the general sense of "him" as well as how the court is likely to view him. You are right, that past mistakes and circumstances being past, except they probably aren't "past" for his child.

Here is the biggest mistakes most non custodial parents make when trying to get/increase visitation.

First, they don't keep up with ordered child support. Not doing so will NEVER work in their favor courtwise. Even if the amount ordered is out of reach financially, he needs to pay as much as he can. Every state has child support calculations available on line to figure out the right amount of support.

Second, believing/claiming they can't afford an attorney to go to court to, in this case, enforce ordered visitation will also not work in his favor. Every state also has "pro se" packets available either on line or at the courthouse that has jurisdiction over the case. Use them and file a Motion to Enforce Litigant's Rights (the necessary motion for someone not allowing ordered parenting time).

His "past circumstances" ARE working against him, regardless of what they are and who he may be now. So he had better be prepared to demonstrate exactly why he is "worthy" now and that the circumstances were in the past. Yep, it will be a long road, probably with multiple court appearances. If Child Protective Services weere involved in the past, he better be able to prove to them those circumstances are in the past.

How does he do those things? First, he makes the effort to get time with his child EVERY time the order says it is allowed. Doesn't matter a bit if the grandparents are going to deny it and he knows it. If he doesn't make the effort, the court is going to look at it. They don't care how frustrated he is making the effort for nothing every time, and regardless of the eventual outcome, neither does his kid. Next, he documents each and every failed attempt and what happened.

As for your involvement, forget all the "dom/sub" shit. This is about a relationship and how this situation going to affect the two of you. Don't think for a second that all you are doing is supporting him through this battle and when court is over, happily ever after will come. Unless the court in the end orders that he gets custody and all ties with the mother and granparents are severed, they WILL be granted parenting time even if he gets custody. If they aren't cooperative now, they will spend the rest of that kid's life watching him like a hawk for the most tiny mistakes, and generally making your life hell. You could be the most vanilla couple in the world and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.

I worked in Family Law for about 15 years. That time included a LOT of custody battles and dealings with CPS. It wasn't in your state, but when it comes to custody battles the above is pretty universal.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/10/2011 6:37:56 PM   
anniezz338


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quote:



As for your involvement, forget all the "dom/sub" shit. This is about a relationship and how this situation going to affect the two of you.


This was my first thought....and agree it should be his decision. I also know if i had children and was going thru this, they would come first over my lifestyle. I'd make it known I was completely out of the lifestyle and stay clean as a whistle. OK, I probably would slip from time to time....bound to happen...but without a doubt, the kids would be top priority.

< Message edited by anniezz338 -- 11/10/2011 6:39:33 PM >

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/10/2011 6:53:22 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anniezz338

quote:



As for your involvement, forget all the "dom/sub" shit. This is about a relationship and how this situation going to affect the two of you.


This was my first thought....and agree it should be his decision. I also know if i had children and was going thru this, they would come first over my lifestyle. I'd make it known I was completely out of the lifestyle and stay clean as a whistle. OK, I probably would slip from time to time....bound to happen...but without a doubt, the kids would be top priority.


Actually it isn't "his" decision. It's hers. His life with his child will continue to exist with or without her. Her life, however, will potentially be a great deal more complicated and hellish by choosing to be involved with someone going through what he is.

As for the rest of what you said. Oh hell yea. People have a sex life and raise children and parents are entitled to "private time." But no good parent is going to choose a partner over their child, or sex over their child. And no good parent wants their child to ever come to them and ask, "why didn't you fight for me."

(in reply to anniezz338)
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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/10/2011 8:58:36 PM   
anniezz338


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: anniezz338

quote:



As for your involvement, forget all the "dom/sub" shit. This is about a relationship and how this situation going to affect the two of you.


This was my first thought....and agree it should be his decision. I also know if i had children and was going thru this, they would come first over my lifestyle. I'd make it known I was completely out of the lifestyle and stay clean as a whistle. OK, I probably would slip from time to time....bound to happen...but without a doubt, the kids would be top priority.


Actually it isn't "his" decision. It's hers. His life with his child will continue to exist with or without her. Her life, however, will potentially be a great deal more complicated and hellish by choosing to be involved with someone going through what he is.
As for the rest of what you said. Oh hell yea. People have a sex life and raise children and parents are entitled to "private time." But no good parent is going to choose a partner over their child, or sex over their child. And no good parent wants their child to ever come to them and ask, "why didn't you fight for me."


Yes, she would definitely have to make a decision, especially if it was dicussed whether to move forward with her in the picture as his "significant other". I do not know all about the court processes in this stuff, but it would seem her background would become a factor also, which could possibly open more cans of worms. I'm about 90% sure i would back off until the dust settles....for the good of all.

But if she decides to stay in the picture, I would see the parent of the child having to make the final decision. This could fall to either side of the kneel, slave or Master. If I (say the slave) were the parent, I would hope for a patient and understanding Master who would work with me until things were settled, because as a parent, I would be removing every possible roadblock, including him.

_____________________________

I had become insane, with horrific lapses of sanity. Edgar Allen Poe

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/10/2011 9:45:23 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: onedeceptivesub
...i know it all should be his decision but if i go there and am new to the mix i can't help but feel it would possibly mess things up worse...


Tough call. I had trouble with this one. At first i wanted to say it's His call, but i changed my mind. Now i think it's wrong for anyone to knowingly jeopardise their partner's relationship with their child, regardless of what side of the kneel they're on, and regardless if they have their partner's okay.

He would be a complete asshole if He did that to her. We would all be kicking and screaming, leave Him, He has no right to put his dick before your kid. What are you thinking?

So why would she be any less guilty for turning her head the other way while He puts Himself in that situation? Sure it's their dynamic and He's the Master, but only someone without a conscience would do something so unethical with the excuse "Well, my Master said it was okay." This isn't small change we're talking here, this is his entire future life with his kid. If he loses that, he's not going to be able to get it back.

And, frankly, if the Master is the kind of guy who would knowingly jeopardise His entire relationship with His child for the sake of a BDSM relationship...then she's well rid of Him.

i sense a gender bias here. If it were her child involved, no way would anyone be saying, it's the Master's decision.

Anyway, this has been the opinion of one bottom/sub, and not a slave.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 11/10/2011 9:50:30 PM >

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/11/2011 10:54:08 AM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anniezz338

Yes, she would definitely have to make a decision, especially if it was dicussed whether to move forward with her in the picture as his "significant other". I do not know all about the court processes in this stuff, but it would seem her background would become a factor also, which could possibly open more cans of worms. I'm about 90% sure i would back off until the dust settles....for the good of all.

But if she decides to stay in the picture, I would see the parent of the child having to make the final decision. This could fall to either side of the kneel, slave or Master. If I (say the slave) were the parent, I would hope for a patient and understanding Master who would work with me until things were settled, because as a parent, I would be removing every possible roadblock, including him.



The whole D/s thing here is completely irrelevant is the point. In any relationship, both parties need to make the decision, "is this worth it?" when faced with complications.

Unless the other party starts making a stink about her, her background is irrelevant. I used to tell clients who didn't want the new SO around their kids that they needed concrete evidence of wrongdoing, not just a dislike. That and unless you were involving the kid or doing those activities within their eyesight/hearing range, the court doesn't typically get horribly involved. Not even in the dreaded bible belt.

The parent in ANY custody circumstance shouldn't be getting into a relationship to bein with while this battle is occuring. Not because of the court's view, but because the battles are fucking exhausting and if you really want your kid, you should be focusing on getting your kid. Yep, we all need down time and to have a life apart from our children, but when you are trying to gain custody/parenting time with your child, that down time really can't exist. Also, as a parent, your "down time" is when the TRUE master of the house is going to permit it. That "true" master is the kid. Have all the plans you want, then your child gets sick or the sitter cancels, and there go your plans.

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/11/2011 10:56:58 AM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: onedeceptivesub
...i know it all should be his decision but if i go there and am new to the mix i can't help but feel it would possibly mess things up worse...


Tough call. I had trouble with this one. At first i wanted to say it's His call, but i changed my mind. Now i think it's wrong for anyone to knowingly jeopardise their partner's relationship with their child, regardless of what side of the kneel they're on, and regardless if they have their partner's okay.

He would be a complete asshole if He did that to her. We would all be kicking and screaming, leave Him, He has no right to put his dick before your kid. What are you thinking?

So why would she be any less guilty for turning her head the other way while He puts Himself in that situation? Sure it's their dynamic and He's the Master, but only someone without a conscience would do something so unethical with the excuse "Well, my Master said it was okay." This isn't small change we're talking here, this is his entire future life with his kid. If he loses that, he's not going to be able to get it back.

And, frankly, if the Master is the kind of guy who would knowingly jeopardise His entire relationship with His child for the sake of a BDSM relationship...then she's well rid of Him.

i sense a gender bias here. If it were her child involved, no way would anyone be saying, it's the Master's decision.

Anyway, this has been the opinion of one bottom/sub, and not a slave.

pam


Not that I think you were referring to me, but I did try to specify that regardless of gender or side of the kneel someone falls on, the child should be the priority.

But you are right, there is regular gender bias around here about these types of things. Or is it more "kneel" bias? Meaning that s-types are always told to dump the d-type and do what they needs to be done for their child? Seems like in the d-type situations, it isn't a "dump his ass" (cause it always seems to be females asking) as much as it is, "you are the one in charge, dictate how it is."

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/11/2011 12:13:16 PM   
January


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quote:

ORIGINAL: onedeceptivesub

as for the circumstances of the past, they are the past but the grandparents will not be reasonable.



Based on this one statement alone, I do think you should back off. Not from him, but from making pronouncements about his suitability as a caretaker. You don't know what happened to create this mess. The past is not simply the past, easy to ignore because it's not convenient for this father. The court and the grandparents have not, and will not, ignore the past. Yet you have clearly taken sides, drawing conclusions about the grandparents' reasonableness, and what the court considers in deciding permanency.

You've made lots of assumptions about the situation, and there is no way you are getting the complete story from the father. You are this man's lover, his shoulder to cry on, but you cannot be his advocate. Leave that up to whatever professionals are already involved. This is not your battle. You can't solve this problem, which I suspect is very serious. Only the father can-- likely by being hyper-responsible. I can't see why your staying or leaving is relevant at all at this point.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to onedeceptivesub)
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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/11/2011 12:40:16 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: January


quote:

ORIGINAL: onedeceptivesub

as for the circumstances of the past, they are the past but the grandparents will not be reasonable.



Based on this one statement alone, I do think you should back off. Not from him, but from making pronouncements about his suitability as a caretaker. You don't know what happened to create this mess. The past is not simply the past, easy to ignore because it's not convenient for this father. The court and the grandparents have not, and will not, ignore the past. Yet you have clearly taken sides, drawing conclusions about the grandparents' reasonableness, and what the court considers in deciding permanency.

You've made lots of assumptions about the situation, and there is no way you are getting the complete story from the father. You are this man's lover, his shoulder to cry on, but you cannot be his advocate. Leave that up to whatever professionals are already involved. This is not your battle. You can't solve this problem, which I suspect is very serious. Only the father can-- likely by being hyper-responsible. I can't see why your staying or leaving is relevant at all at this point.

January


Well said, January. So rarely do the new SO's really have a clue what the whole story is, only what the SO is telling them, which of course is (just a tiny bit) biased.

Parenting isn't a convenience or something you do when you "want" to, which so frequently is what has happened in these circumstances. Knowing that there are plenty of addicts, even with crack or heroin (harder to give up) who have stopped cold turkey the minute they found out they were pregnant, makes people who talk about "past circumstances" and such seem so unlikely to ever move forward.

Only thing I can think of is the OP (whose profile would make me question absolutely anything) thought of leaving and the guy said no or vice versa. Since she is certainly of an age to have some common sense of her own (which may or may not be lacking), it does indeed make no sense.

(in reply to January)
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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/12/2011 6:39:28 PM   
ForMatureMascSlv


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/6/2011
Status: offline 		You can be both supportive and not a presence in these proceedings. It is his choice in the end but communicate your concerns.

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/12/2011 6:48:36 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		No it isn't a "choice" it is a decision between two people. Yes, this is a dom with the issue, but if it were reverse and some dom got the trumped up going with when I had said no (and yes when it involves my kids, I AM in charge), and he thought his big domly ass could decide otherwise, I would hope the door didn't hit him on the way out.

As a partner, you need to do two things once you know their situation. First realize nothing is a simple custody issue and do you have what it takes to be supportive of your partner and still stay uninvolved, i.e. not join the bad mouthing of the other people (the op fails on this one). You need to support you partner in the way they need it not the way YOU want to give it It ISN"T your battle, don't make it one. Second, decide if you even want to go the distance on the mess. It isn't going to get easy, it will often be dirty and can break up your relationship. You don't care, go for it, but don't ever expect to come first in his life dom or sub.

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/12/2011 7:48:34 PM   
winspiritsbaby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: winspiritsbaby

I'm on board with everyone else. It is his decision to make and she should abide by it. She should trust that her partner knows what he is doing and ask him how she can best support him at this time.


Because I didn't word this right let me explain...I don't mean it's his decision because he is the dominant, I meant it is his decision because he is the father. He has a better idea of everything that has led up to this point than she does and therefore can make a better decision than she can. He knows what past events might are being used as well as why the mother doesn't seem to be in the picture at all. He would probably also know better whether her presence in his life would have a negative effect.

I changed my original to show what I had meant to say.

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/12/2011 7:51:44 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		In my relationship, I am the Dominant.  I expect my submissive to fully explain her views and her thoughts on any situation.  I will then decide.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/12/2011 8:05:23 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Doesn't matter how dominant you are. You can demand that she tell you everything, but they aren't your kids and it isn't your battle. The uberdomly dom who knows best here is bullshit.

ETA:

And with the reverse, the uberdomly dom is shit too. His CHILDREN are the only thing that matter, not having a discussion with his SO over them. BDSM is out of the equation because, oops, real life stepped in.

I realize most of you have some personal experience with this. I have fifteen years working in that field, a bit different. I never lost a case during my whole career. There were things my clients didn't get, but I didn't expect them to get those things, they were bargaining chips. So, Yea, I know what goes on in divorce because I've worked lots.

I worked on my gut, used to make my boss crazy at the beginning. After he checked a couple things I said and found me right, he just trusted me.

My gut? Look at this girl's profile....That indicates she would make a wonderful alternate parent/caregiver. Look at how quick she jumps to his defense. Not only does she not know the whole story, but she is going to take his side even over the stuff she KNOWS is bad. Is she in a relationship with this guy or just considering it? Doesn't mean a rat's ass if her "dominant" says I want you to stay for the complicated, mud slinging battle and headaches of my custody battle because I fucked up so bad in my past, my kids are elsewhere, That IS an order only and idiot (who shouldn't be around your children) will blindly folllow. He can't guarantee her a damn thing at this moment. Not tomorrow, or the future. Not if he is really going to bat for his kids.

New Significant Others do one of two things. Rarely, they will bring some peace and sense to the situation and be the only vioce of reason. More often, they are dealing with their own issues about the situation and will make things more difficult for you and your children and have no idea when to shut up and back off. Not nice was it? That WAS the nice version of what happens.

I got divorced when I was 31. My ex was a major asshole and I personally went through much of what everyone comes here worrying about. He accused me of everything from prostitution/whore, alcoholic/druggie to physichally abusing our child. It was how my career came to be. I didn't advertise what I did, but had work in FIVE NJ counties by word of mouth only. I didn't even work with a business card. I learned these things in, out, forwards, backwards and every way in between. I knew who came to see me and was lying within a 15-20 minute interview consisting of only 2-3 questions from me.

So the above? IF she is truthful, my gut tells me HE isn't telling her everything and given her screen name and profile, I wouldn't be surprised if she was trying to write her college thesis paper on BDSM and asked the question for "scholarly" reasons.

But hey, I could be wrong. It happens on occassion. Although in the Family Law venue, not often.



< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 11/12/2011 8:22:41 PM >

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/12/2011 9:43:09 PM   
winspiritsbaby


Posts: 141
Status: offline 		DS, do you really think you could make that kind of decision and live with the consequences if it were the wrong one? We are talking about someone's kid here, a piece of them, a lifelong relationship.
Honestly, I mean no disrespect, but I don't understand how someone that would be new to the situation would possibly be able to make that decision.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/12/2011 10:09:06 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
In my relationship, I am the Dominant.  I expect my submissive to fully explain her views and her thoughts on any situation.  I will then decide.


i'm glad that a Dominant finally said this, because i understand it, and yet it's not what i would do, personally. i would have put my concience before my Dominant's orders on something serious like this, even if it meant the end of the relationship. Upon reflection, that represents an anti high-degree-of-power-exchange mentality. i'm not comfortable with the idea of giving someone that much control, and i think my answers to questions like this reflect that. The difference between being a sub and a bottom, i guess.

pam

_____________________________

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/13/2011 5:27:40 AM   
delilahdelight


Posts: 33
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

And with the reverse, the uberdomly dom is shit too. His CHILDREN are the only thing that matter, not having a discussion with his SO over them. BDSM is out of the equation because, oops, real life stepped in.



Yeah, that pretty much covers it.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/13/2011 8:25:31 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
In my relationship, I am the Dominant.  I expect my submissive to fully explain her views and her thoughts on any situation.  I will then decide.


i'm glad that a Dominant finally said this, because i understand it, and yet it's not what i would do, personally. i would have put my concience before my Dominant's orders on something serious like this, even if it meant the end of the relationship. Upon reflection, that represents an anti high-degree-of-power-exchange mentality. i'm not comfortable with the idea of giving someone that much control, and i think my answers to questions like this reflect that. The difference between being a sub and a bottom, i guess.

pam


Actually, Pam, I think it is a matter of who is ultimately responsible for such an important life decision. It would seem those on the bottom that take the "let my dominant decide" stance are those who are looking to absolve themselves of responsibility and consequences for their actions.

This is of course, in regards to a sub and their children. Any parent who is going to let their partner (who isn't the parent) make custodial decisions or decisions that can affect custody, shouldn't have custody of their children. Sorry, but as a parent, the person who had the children took on the responsibility of making those decisions. If you are going to abdicate those decisions to someone else, you shouldn't have the children.

From the dominant's children standpoint, in a volitile custody situation such as this, to make a decision that isn't putting the children first, i.e. not getting involved in a relationship until it is resolved, the focus isn't on the kids to begin with, so the "past circumstances" aren't past, and the kids should stay where they are.

Sure, BDSM is a "lifestyle" not a game, but when it comes to someone's kids, BDSM is a life choice that comes second. Whether dominant or submissive, the decision that must be made MUST be made by the parent of the children in the best interest of the children. The other partner, again dominant or submissive, has only two responsibilities on that issue. First, RESPECT your partner's decision, and second be supportive as a person.

DS usually makes a great deal of sense on most issues. His particular statement here, though, is just pure BDSM bullshit that disregards the reality that there are decisions that people, as adults need to make for themselves and if they abdicate, then they really shouldn't have the right to make any decisions for themselves.

(in reply to gungadin09)
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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/13/2011 12:37:45 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		~FR~

For me, a man who would jeopardize his relationship with his children, just to be in a relationship with me, would not be a man I could be with.

It is 100% his choice about what to do.  It is then 100% my choice about whether or not I stay in the relationship.

Not an easy situation you are in, no matter what.


_____________________________

yep

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RE: slave versus custody/visitation - 11/13/2011 1:13:50 PM   
gungadin09


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Joined: 3/19/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
It is 100% his choice about what to do.  It is then 100% my choice about whether or not I stay in the relationship.


Likewise. i guess for me this would end up being a hard limit, so following the Dominant's orders would be a moot point.

pam


_____________________________

[link] www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvDnbFOkYY [/link]

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Profile   Post #: 40
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