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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 11:53:27 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Earned Income Credit, which actually gives those very poor back money beyond what they paid in.

Child Tax Credits.

Education Credits

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
what crumbs do the poor pay for but not eat in a flat tax system?



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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 11:54:53 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I don't know why this is so hard to understand, but:

Congress passes legislation.
Changes in the tax code require legislation.
Obama is not in Congress.

Is that clear enough for you?  Did you sleep through civics class in high school?

You missed a step: President signs legislation, making it law.

Firm



I guess someone slept through the Executive Branch class.

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 12:00:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Earned Income Credit, which actually gives those very poor back money beyond what they paid in.

Child Tax Credits.

Education Credits

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
what crumbs do the poor pay for but not eat in a flat tax system?




That wasnt the question, Master Orion.

What benefits under a flat tax would the poor pay for but not benefit from?

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 12:01:38 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Perhaps if you were to learn how to do arithmetic you would not need a prybar to get your feet out of your mouth
698,105,000,000/336,000,000=1/2077 which is a tiny fraction of 1%


And the country is a tiny fraction of the US... the population is a tiny fraction of the US...

Your point is pointless on this.

United States 312,582,000 population... United States 698,105,000,000 military

2,233.40 per person spent on military

Estonia 1,340,194......... Estonia 336,000,000

251.00 per person spent on military

Your argument is more in keeping that we spend far too much on military...

2 People's Republic of China 114,000,000,000

3 France 61,285,000,000

4 United Kingdom 57,424,000,000

Rather ridiculous, dont you think?

1 China[4] 1,339,724,852 population

China spends 85 per person

21 France[5] 65,821,885

France spends 931 per person

22 United Kingdom 62,300,000

The UK spends 921

All these numbers tell us is how much is spent. They dont tell us how much is waste, how much is kickbacks/bribes/"deals"/ect.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/11/2011 12:14:14 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 2:38:05 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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The benefits to live? I am not sure what you mean. A flat tax would take money out of the pockets of the poor since they would not get the Earned Income Credit. You can actually file to have that credit given to you each paycheck. In a flat tax they wouldn't have that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That wasnt the question, Master Orion.

What benefits under a flat tax would the poor pay for but not benefit from?



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 2:41:12 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		They would get what they paid in back below poverty level. I have often said I am conservative on some issues, this is one. While, yes, they would lose that earned income credit, more money would be going into the system to boost up the programs designed to help them in other ways.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 3:35:10 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

The whole thing is a mess.

First of all the problem would not be fixed by a flat tax on corporations. There is no way in hell to not allow a businesss ir's legitimate deductions. There would simply be no business. I mean if you owned a store and had to pay on gross without deducting the cost of the goods, markup would have to be astronomical, I mean like as high as furniture or jewelry. However people can find a way to abuse damnear anything. Any company can buy a Lear jet and guess what, it is tax deductable. That is incentive for the suits to leave a bunch of the company's income in the company. A private individual would have a hell of a time writing off a personal jet, but if you and five of your buddies happen to own a busines...... So the stockhiolders suffer a bit, fukum.

In reality a flat tax on individuals could work if it is low enough. People bitch when the rich only pay like 8% while Joe Sixpack making $80K a year has to pay like 29%. This all depends on deductions and just how you take the money. Well I have some ideas.

First of all we have a system in this country in which there are some flat deductions, like SS and the medicaXX tax, whatever it is, I forget. On top of that just about everything else is based at least loosely on the fed tax witholding rate.

Now consider this plan ; the tax rate is 17% period. There are no deductions for anything except a personal deduction. No dependents ! However this personal deduction is about $20K every year. On $80K you would pay about $10K. That is actually 12.5%. Take a guy making $40K. He would pay $3,400. That's 8.5%. On $30K you pay $1,700 which is 5.66¯%. Witholding tables would have to drawn up to assure that nobody incurs a tax liability for a fiscal year but also to assure the most money is in the worker's pocket at the end of the week.

Now on the corporate level there is a whole slew of other problems involved in getting the slugs to pay the fuck up. A company maintains a fleet of vans to facilitate their business, or it could be buses, or semis, or Hondas, or even motorcyles, or hell, in the case of Jimmy John's maybe even bicycles. Why not Lear jets ? It's a tough nut to crack because the execs WILL use those jets for personal business at times. Like to go to the Whitehouse to beg for welfare, errr I mean TARP. They employ scores of people just to keep the taxes down.

However I got their ass kicked on this anyway. Under the Termy plan, NOTHING made outside of the US is tax deductible. That means you buy a boatload of plasma TVs from China and resell them, you don't get to deduct what they cost. That fucking simple. Does an individual get to deduct the cost of a tooth operation ? Does an individual get to deduct the cost of a brain transplant, a transmission job or a new roof ? Fuck no. Tough shit, mark the shit up high enough to pay the taxes. The exception is food. The exception is always food, just like in most states you don't pay sales tax on food. Or mabye even that exception isn't a good idea.

But the major fucking idea is to make the rate more reasonable, while getting more people to actually PAY IT !

And FFS finally make the goddamn law that everyone must pay. They never really did that, though I don't want to start a big argument about it. All the shit people quote is IRS code, which means shit. Make it REAL LAW, you must pay. But you make it reasonable so that people CAN pay and are WILLING to pay. Then IRS agents with guns will be a thing of the past. The whole fucking agency could be melted down and made into something useful.

T^T


< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/11/2011 3:58:40 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 3:59:20 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		How? and is there any variance by someone that is 10% below and someone that is 50% below? How would they get back the lost EIC that they use to pay bills with?


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They would get what they paid in back below poverty level.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 4:11:24 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		They wouldnt. Nor would corporations get their bennies either. Tough times call for tough measures. I have no problem cutting everything across the board to turn the economy around. I do have a problem when the only cuts are to the poor and children.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 5:21:12 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		You do realize that cuts to the poor, such as the elimination of the EIC in a flat tax environment, will cause more suffering to those already suffering? As someone who used to do Income Tax returns, in a very poor area, I can tell you that it would mean everything from more hunger, less medical care, not being able to repair the only vehicle a poor family has (relying on that vehicle to get them to and from work, grocery store, etc.). When this country, at the huge corporate level, at the executives of those huge corporations, to the barons of wall street, have enough extra.

I asked how, in a flat tax, and I still have not had that answered.

Any tax reform that causes the most poor, to lose anything or pay more, is criminal, with as much wealth as there is at the top level. This is not being a socialist, this is being pragmatic. I have a problem when there are any cuts to the poor and children at this time in this country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They wouldnt. Nor would corporations get their bennies either. Tough times call for tough measures. I have no problem cutting everything across the board to turn the economy around. I do have a problem when the only cuts are to the poor and children.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 5:24:52 PM   
BanthaSamantha


Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline 		According to Grover Norquist, none of these expirations would count as a tax increase. Instead, they would simply be the natural expiration of a tax break calculated to be temporary. Mr. Norquist has already publically said that allowing tax cuts like these to expire would not amount to breaking the pledge that many Republican candidates for President signed.

< Message edited by BanthaSamantha -- 11/11/2011 5:27:06 PM >

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 5:38:12 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You do realize that cuts to the poor, such as the elimination of the EIC in a flat tax environment, will cause more suffering to those already suffering? As someone who used to do Income Tax returns, in a very poor area, I can tell you that it would mean everything from more hunger, less medical care, not being able to repair the only vehicle a poor family has (relying on that vehicle to get them to and from work, grocery store, etc.). When this country, at the huge corporate level, at the executives of those huge corporations, to the barons of wall street, have enough extra.

I asked how, in a flat tax, and I still have not had that answered.

Any tax reform that causes the most poor, to lose anything or pay more, is criminal, with as much wealth as there is at the top level. This is not being a socialist, this is being pragmatic. I have a problem when there are any cuts to the poor and children at this time in this country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They wouldnt. Nor would corporations get their bennies either. Tough times call for tough measures. I have no problem cutting everything across the board to turn the economy around. I do have a problem when the only cuts are to the poor and children.




Are you advocating they just up and give away their money? You and I both know that will never happen. Already the rich are bitching that 47% of this country pays no income tax while most of them use loopholes and tax shelters to pay none themselves.

Im very well aware of the problems in our tax codes.. and the problems facing the economy. Progressive taxes do not work. But the rich will not give up their loopholes and bennies while the poor keep theirs.... no matter how much I wish it could be different.

So, now what?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 7:34:10 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Are you advocating they just up and give away their money? You and I both know that will never happen. Already the rich are bitching that 47% of this country pays no income tax while most of them use loopholes and tax shelters to pay none themselves.


Just remove the loop holes and tax shelters for things that do not directly stimulate our nation's economy. It has been done before.

quote:


Im very well aware of the problems in our tax codes.. and the problems facing the economy. Progressive taxes do not work. But the rich will not give up their loopholes and bennies while the poor keep theirs.... no matter how much I wish it could be different.

So, now what?


One step at a time. First, these credits and individual tax code changes need to be kept in place. Second, the corporate tax loopholes need to be removed. Third, forced reduction of spending that is not spent domestically, this means reduction of the Military spending.

This will only work if the politicians are held accountable though, and that is the part that is failing. We, the American voters, must set aside this political game, stop being cheerleaders and vote out any that want to do business as usual corporate pandering.

Now I take it since you did not answer my question about the flat tax and it taking away from the poor, that you have no answer for that.

When these tax changes end, it will take more money out of the common person's pocket. Money that would be spent into the economy. That is what the OP is about, so let's start there and keep these changes.

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 7:37:57 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		This is where we need to stop allowing technicalities to get in the way.

People will be paying more taxes, but it is not an increase. It can be cut however anyone wants, but the end result is still the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

According to Grover Norquist, none of these expirations would count as a tax increase. Instead, they would simply be the natural expiration of a tax break calculated to be temporary. Mr. Norquist has already publically said that allowing tax cuts like these to expire would not amount to breaking the pledge that many Republican candidates for President signed.


Sounds like lawyers going by the letter of something, rather than the spirit of it. Is this really considered acceptable?

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 7:39:27 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Just remove the loop holes and tax shelters for things that do not directly stimulate our nation's economy. It has been done before.


They get removed to be put back in. Its a shell game.

quote:

Now I take it since you did not answer my question about the flat tax and it taking away from the poor, that you have no answer for that.


Yes, I did answer it. More tax revenues would help the poor.


quote:

When these tax changes end, it will take more money out of the common person's pocket. Money that would be spent into the economy. That is what the OP is about, so let's start there and keep these changes.


Best hope the Senate doesnt pass what the House sends. Because the House doesnt care about the common person's pockets.

You have more trust in our system than I do. Look at Romney's plan.... see who is being hit yet again. No one cares about the poor, they only care about the rich.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 7:53:48 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Just remove the loop holes and tax shelters for things that do not directly stimulate our nation's economy. It has been done before.

you mean like the mortgage interest tax deduction for personal residences? Imo, that was one of the contributing factors to the whole housing debacle.. And its unfair to renters (which tend to be lower income) and those who pay cash/have clear title.

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 8:23:52 PM   
BanthaSamantha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

you mean like the mortgage interest tax deduction for personal residences? Imo, that was one of the contributing factors to the whole housing debacle.. And its unfair to renters (which tend to be lower income) and those who pay cash/have clear title.


Tax law is a complicated subject.

It is unlikely that the mortgage interest tax deduction was a major influence on the housing crisis. Remember that the MITD is a below-the-line deduction, meaning one will only qualify it once their itemized deductions begin to outweigh their standard deduction. Likewise, in order for it to have a truly influencing effect, the deduction must substantially surpass the standard deduction. As a person makes more money, they're likely to have more itemized deductions. But, as a person makes more money, there are less likely to default on a mortgage. Their mortgage might be underwater, but they have the resources to continue paying it down.

Such means that this deduction is only really encouraging a narrow band of people to buy a home when they ordinarily wouldn't: people whom make enough money to get a substantial deduction but don't make enough to protect themselves from default.

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RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/11/2011 9:42:52 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"meaning one will only qualify it once their itemized deductions begin to outweigh their standard deduction"

Actually you can volunteer to pay more by taking itemized deductions that are less than the standard, but then they would audit you just to find out if you are fucking nuts.

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/12/2011 4:26:52 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Just remove the loop holes and tax shelters for things that do not directly stimulate our nation's economy. It has been done before.


They get removed to be put back in. Its a shell game.


They can at least be removed for now, so this pass of the shell we get more tax revenue.

quote:


quote:

Now I take it since you did not answer my question about the flat tax and it taking away from the poor, that you have no answer for that.


Yes, I did answer it. More tax revenues would help the poor.


You must have missed it then, I asked how.


quote:


quote:

When these tax changes end, it will take more money out of the common person's pocket. Money that would be spent into the economy. That is what the OP is about, so let's start there and keep these changes.


Best hope the Senate doesnt pass what the House sends. Because the House doesnt care about the common person's pockets.

You have more trust in our system than I do. Look at Romney's plan.... see who is being hit yet again. No one cares about the poor, they only care about the rich.



Why do you think the politicians don't care? Maybe because of regardless of party they are working for their corporate Masters? Then the accountability falls on us, the American voter.

A defeatist attitude, especially when things are at it's worst, only causes more damage.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Personal Income Tax Increases - 11/12/2011 4:29:30 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		This is a deduction that helped stimulate the housing industry. It was the lack of regulation over these loans, and the accountability of the financial institutions. I believe there should be a cap on it, based upon the value of the home though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Just remove the loop holes and tax shelters for things that do not directly stimulate our nation's economy. It has been done before.

you mean like the mortgage interest tax deduction for personal residences? Imo, that was one of the contributing factors to the whole housing debacle.. And its unfair to renters (which tend to be lower income) and those who pay cash/have clear title.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 60
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