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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 9:48:43 AM   
OttersSwim


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So I wanted to post a bit about the whole concept of "Passing".  There are so many aspects to this concept from the trans person themselves to the people they encounter to society as a whole.

I have done a lot of thinking about it as I, like many trans-folk, am not completely passable all the time, and further, I choose to keep part of my male identity and life with me, and in order to feel and be authentic in my life, I go the other way of "not looking man enough" when I present as male.

So let me throw this out - in my mind, passing is a lie.  It is not, as you may think, a lie to those who see me, but it is a lie to myself.

You see, I am not really interested in "passing"....what I really want is to get away from the social -stigma- of being trans.  I want a break from all the baggage and all the negative associations and all the soul blunting worry and stress and fear of what other other people are going to think, say, or do about me...or to me.  I think this is true for a lot of trans-folk.

But by acknowledging that stigma and making an effort to pass...then I am actually giving that argument that Awareness stated that "Well, it's okay if they pass." credence...worse, I am taking that stigma into myself and living it.

And I admit that it is so hard NOT to do that...just to want to blend in so I can just get on with my life unmolested.

And yet, by putting so much emphasis on passing, I am perpetuating the stigma, perpetuating the lie to myself that something profound is not happening in my life.  And, while I may be able to hide from society...I cannot hide from me.

And so, I do my best to simply be me and make passing something that I am not specifically trying to incite in others.  Rather than putting so much effort into having people mistakenly see me for something that I am not - a biological female...I want them to see me for what I am - warts and all.  And damn, that can be so much harder...so much scarier, and frankly, so much more dangerous...

But it is authentic.  And for me, that is what this journey is all about.

Most trans people really want that equality of gender.  To have people see someone presenting as a gender and to have them simply accept that "this is a woman" or "this is a man".  While I can certainly see the justice in this argument, we are still a pretty long way off from that.  And to get there, it is going to take more experience in society - exposure to transgendered people, education about transgendered people, and the gradual social realization (as has happened in the gay and lesbian community) that this is a group of people that are VISIBLE among us, are demanding fair treatment, and are not going to go away.

In my view, we don't get there by passing, by stealth, or putting expectations on the backs of cis-gendered people to -just change-.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 10:00:56 AM   
Reform


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Thank you for posting this thread; drama aside, it's been a very good read.

I did have some questions though, many trans people I've spoken to said they knew at a young age (around 5 years old) that something was "wrong." That they felt different, "knew" to some degree and all that. Is that the case for those of you who identify as trans? Do you think that all children who experience those feelings grow to be trans? Should children who present more the other way be treated as trans? To what degree do you think children can/should decide if they are trans or not?

I don't know if anyone is aware, but the Girl Scouts just recently allowed a boy to join. At first the news articles I found about it was that he simply wanted to be Girl Scout, but now that he's been allowed in, they're calling him the first transgender girl scout. He's 6. Does he know if he's trans yet? Did adults just decide that for him so he could be a scout?

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 10:06:40 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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i'll come back and reply to other stuff, but i saw a news story and articles about that boy, and i don't believe he's trans -- he never said he identified as a girl, just that he liked girly things. last i heard, he still wanted to ID as a boy. lately a lot of parents have been fiddling with issues of sexual identity to make political statements, and i don't think that's fair to the kids... 

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 10:27:13 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Well that Tula is some hot! She'd be more hot if she also had a unit, but that's just me grooving on she-males.

I will always be bemused at some folks. Do you men look at all women and rate them for fuckability? Because really? Most women are not doing that to you.




I do!


The 11 year old girl on Rosie yesterday was diagnosed with gender identity disorder at the age of 3, the youngest child ever diagnosed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3L0uJY_Rg4&feature=share

< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 11/15/2011 10:39:22 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 10:41:26 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reform

I did have some questions though, many trans people I've spoken to said they knew at a young age (around 5 years old) that something was "wrong." That they felt different, "knew" to some degree and all that. Is that the case for those of you who identify as trans? Do you think that all children who experience those feelings grow to be trans? Should children who present more the other way be treated as trans? To what degree do you think children can/should decide if they are trans or not?
...


I knew that I was different and wanted to do girl things from around age 5, so yea.   I did not and could not at that point understand that I was experiencing gender dysphoria...I just knew that I felt more like a girl than I did a boy.  Now, at that point in time it was not widely understood and so when I played with dolls, I was punished. 

I am living proof that the punishment and rebuke path simply teaches a child to hide, deny and repress something that is very possibly coming from the core of their being.  Terrible things to experience at age five I can tell you...

I am not a parent.  I would not relish being the parent of a transgendered child...my gosh what a difficult and worrying path that would have to be.  But I would hope that if gender expression was something that came up, and kept coming up, that I would have the sense to acknowledge that maybe something systemic in my child was happening and start seeking help down the path that my child seemed to want to go...rather than letting my fear or worry or bias try to determine their path for them.

Actually there is a great little webcomic called The Princess about just such a revelation in a child.  It is pretty great!  http://www.drunkduck.com/The_Princess/5186771/


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 11:28:28 AM   
stellauk


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Okay a few points taken. I'm human, sue me.

But if you're going to come back with yet more projection and assumptions about me and my life I'm sorry, I see no value in responding. It's not like any of this is major.

There's already been one thread closed today through snark. No need to bring this one down to a similar level.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 7:03:05 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

That's awesome.  But there are also people that are comfortable in their own skin that share my same interests as well.  Why not go for one of them?  I'm not one of those types that feels this compulsion to be liked by every single breathing entity on Earth.  I keep to people I enjoy having as friends.  I would not enjoy having a transsexual as a friend. 

Deal with it.


you know, NS, I do deal with it.  Every single day.
I shared an office space with a guy who went off one day about how he hated "trannies" and he'd fucking kill himself if he had to spend too much time in a room with one.  This was a guy who had shared a hotel room with me when we'd go out on the road together (we taught a first responder class)....we hung out after work....had lunch  together almost every day....and spent at least 8 hours 4 feet apart from each other.

I sat and let him go for a while, and then we had a serious chat about why he hated this one woman so much, and it turns out it was much more about her being a lousy ER tech, and really didn't have much at all to do with her being trans, it just provided an easy outlet to hate. by the end of the day, he admitted that it really "wasn't such a big deal after all... he was just blowing off steam..."
I never did tell him--it actually was much better for him to hear a pro-trans view from (certainly in his eyes) another straight guy like him.

I suppose you were one of those kids in high school that wouldn't befriend someone who wasn't popular because it would affect your own popularity.  I always wondered what happened to those kids when they grew up....and now I have the answer: they don't grow up.  they become grown children.

Grow a pair of balls, NS.  If you can't, I'll give the number of my surgeon who can help you out.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 7:23:31 PM   
DarkSteven


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*Chuckle*  I just wanted to share something that happened to Tasha today.  She was filling out forms for some medical stuff and filled out that she was TG.  A sweet young thing asked her what that was, and Tasha explained.  SYT looked at her and said, "So, you're going to become a man?"

Made Tasha's day.


_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 7:27:55 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reform

Thank you for posting this thread; drama aside, it's been a very good read.

I did have some questions though, many trans people I've spoken to said they knew at a young age (around 5 years old) that something was "wrong." That they felt different, "knew" to some degree and all that. Is that the case for those of you who identify as trans? Do you think that all children who experience those feelings grow to be trans? Should children who present more the other way be treated as trans? To what degree do you think children can/should decide if they are trans or not?


I was three....I knew I was a boy...and then quickly learned that I was not a boy the way my brother was.  The nursery school I attended requested a parent-teacher conference (yep, 3!) to tell my parents that I was not normal, didn't speak, act or socialize like a girl, and that it was not only concerning to them, but they were worried that it would "confuse" the other kids.  Ironically, I had a ton of playmates at that age, because most little kids just didn't care.  My parents told the school they were aware of it, but they were fine just letting me be me.

Despite having a somewhat conservative father, I was allowed to wear my brother's hand-me-downs (we didn't have a lot of money so this worked out well for all of us) and the only time I had to wear female clothing was to religious or family functions where it was expected.  I remember vividly the day my mother had to tell me that I couldn't run around shirtless anymore--it was one of those moments where I knew things were going to change and change for the worse.  That year in school, I would strip off my shirt, down to my undershirt in gym class in the wintertime, just like all the other boys did.  The girls (and then boys) stood pointing and laughing, and the bullying started.  And continued for 12 years solid.  My only saving grace: my parents sent me to a summer camp that was almost 100% boys (I think there were maybe 6 girls in the whole camp)  and it was absolute bliss each summer, to spend it in an all-male environment where I was essentially accepted as one of them.

My depression started early--around 6, and I became suicidal when puberty hit.  I turned to alcohol to numb the pain.  I rebelled as a teen and it's an absolute miracle that I did not succeed in killing myself or drinking myself to death.  My only solace was within the leatherdyke community, who gave me the freedom and support to explore my gender in a safe environment.  I began cross-living at 22, living male only part of the time, and passing, but only as a 14 yo boy, which became problematic rather quickly. (I did get stopped by a Truancy Officer once and had to 'come out" )

I've survived sexual abuse, assault, harassment and severe physical and emotional bullying....I've gotten clean and sober...I faced insults, discrimination and constant rudeness....I lost a whole lot of people that I used to consider friends.   I transitioned at 30, and I choose today to live a life in stealth.  It's a personal decision for me--I've been through absolute hell for the first 30 years of my life.  I think I've earned the right to have the last 30 years of my life (hopefully more) to live as I please.

and I truly do appreciate the support and kindness shown by many of you on this thread (and on the other side). 

< Message edited by hausboy -- 11/15/2011 7:28:38 PM >

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 7:33:20 PM   
AneNoz


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Awareness, dear Sir, I have for you a question. I know from other interactings that you are a man of compassion. Yet I see little of this in you in this issue. Also it is that you are a man unafraid to examine himself and his motivations.

From much that you have made to be said in this thread I have it in my ind that the male-to-female transition is to you a betrayal of the ideals and concepts by which you have endeavoured to live. Please do not respond in haste, I ask you to reflect with care and honesty. Is this not so, is this not to a large part the origin of your seeming animosity? Is it not that the desire to be, on the part of a man, a woman, challenges the structure of your world?

Be at peace
Aneka

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 7:34:27 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy
I choose today to live a life in stealth. 


I guess I'm a bit confused about why this has to be said.  It's none of my business what state you were born in or raised in, it's none of my business what nationality you are, and it's none of my business that you arrived at being a man differently than a cis person.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 7:41:59 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy
I choose today to live a life in stealth. 


I guess I'm a bit confused about why this has to be said.  It's none of my business what state you were born in or raised in, it's none of my business what nationality you are, and it's none of my business that you arrived at being a man differently than a cis person.


There are some folks out there within the Trans community (and I use that world loosely) that feel that those of us who choose to live stealth are not doing any education of others and are not helping the TG/TV/TS/CD movement.  Especially since so many of my transgender sisters do not have the option available to them--they can't really live stealth if they aren't able to pass all the time.  They are often seen as transsexuals, whereas I can move through the world and the only people who know are those I tell.  I used to selectively lobby for a bill or do some side work with HR departments, but now that I hold a much more public position, I choose to remain stealth (and let others do the education and lobbying) 

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 8:06:16 PM   
Cherylmazana


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Over the last few years there has been a number of service men in the UK who have changed from men to women, some of my family are in the services so it’s a subject that was discussed amongst various family members and friends.

The average non kinky straight vanilla heterosexual man feels very threatened by a man changing to a woman. They simply can’t understand why a man would want to have his most precious body part cut off. In a strange sort of way they feel (on a subconscious level) that if they are crazy enough to mutilate themselves then they are crazy enough to do anything.

I think as well the thought that they might inadvertently sleep with a man and so make them homosexual adds to the problem. Especially if they look at this “man” and feel sexual feelings, OMG it might mean they are gay!!

So you have the fear of losing their penis and the fear of sleeping with a man combined with the anger at feeling deceived and tricked. Add to that the fear that they might actually enjoy something that they feel is wrong and you have a powder keg ready to explode.

Our society is slowly changing, “gay bashing” is no longer considered an acceptable sport as it was a few years ago, transsexuals are slowly being accepted but like any changes it takes time.

As less and less people accept religions definition of sin and start to question why something happens instead of saying “it’s against Gods law!!!” changes will happen.

But expecting immediate acceptance from everyone is futile, there will always be people who for a number of reasons dislike/are afraid/ or just plain believe that it’s wrong according to their religion. Nothing is ever accepted by everyone.

Cheryl


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 8:38:51 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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quote:

you know, NS, I do deal with it.  Every single day


Spare me the tears.  You made the decision to go through with the surgery and with that, should be expected to deal with the prejudice of the outside world.  You dealt with someone who made anti-transsexual tirades?  Welcome to the general population and how they view a transsexual.  The best people can do is be polite and have some form of civility but trust me when I tell you that they are biting their tongues. 

quote:

I suppose you were one of those kids in high school that wouldn't befriend someone who wasn't popular because it would affect your own popularity.  I always wondered what happened to those kids when they grew up....and now I have the answer: they don't grow up.  they become grown children.


I am a terrible and tyrannical person for having preferences for friendships and avoiding striking any with people I simply do not gel with in any way.  Clearly this is an elucidating theory on any callow antics I may have and is based solely on social politics rather than just doing what every other normal person does in their social life which would be to surround themselves with likeminded people they can relate to.  

quote:

Grow a pair of balls, NS.  If you can't, I'll give the number of my surgeon who can help you out.


If the case was me not having testicles then guess what, Glen or Glenda?  I'd manage to go on.  Stop your sob story on how unbearable it is to go through existence "born in the wrong body."  There are a million people out there born with much worse conditions that deserve my sympathy than some derelicts that willingly cast themselves into the fire. 

Get over yourselves.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 9:00:16 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AneNoz

Awareness, dear Sir, I have for you a question. I know from other interactings that you are a man of compassion. Yet I see little of this in you in this issue. Also it is that you are a man unafraid to examine himself and his motivations.

From much that you have made to be said in this thread I have it in my ind that the male-to-female transition is to you a betrayal of the ideals and concepts by which you have endeavoured to live. Please do not respond in haste, I ask you to reflect with care and honesty. Is this not so, is this not to a large part the origin of your seeming animosity? Is it not that the desire to be, on the part of a man, a woman, challenges the structure of your world?

Be at peace
Aneka

  It's a fair question, but there's a few fundamental issues here, which I'll attempt to carefully articulate.

The first is the intent of my original response.  I responded to the thread author to specifically answer the question posed.  I answered honestly and with a rationale, so that the thread author might understand why many heterosexual men might have reservations about interacting with transsexual people.

For my trouble, I was attacked by both trans people and their more ignorant flag-wavers.   If this is how this community reacts to an honest opinion which is expressed without rancour, then I can tell you now, that community is in DEEP fucking trouble.

As for my attitude.  I'd say it's a philosophical difference of opinion.  While I accept that it's theoretically possible for something to go awry with physiology and cause the physical body to manifest one gender and the brain chemistry to manifest another, I'd have to see some evidence to support it.  I tend to think it's more likely to be a form of gender identity disorder.

Fact is, there is no consensus on this point and very little in the way of scientific evidence.  I regard it as important that we discover the root cause of this particular disharmony between mind and body - whether physiological or psychological - and then work to eradicate it.  The only feasible way in which this can be done is through the scientific method.  Simple acceptance of principles put forward by special interest groups - such as the trans community - will not achieve this.  Accordingly it's imperative that we bring some science into this arena, rather than simply promoting those ideas which the trans community finds palatable.

There's a third issue which causes me to regard the motivations of some in the trans community with a good deal of suspicion.  And that has to do with this concept of 'stealth' versus authenticity which some promote.

If the symptom of transsexuality is disharmony between mind and body, then the logical thing to do is attempt to rectify this as quickly and easily as possible with the aim of eliminating the disparity and bringing both into alignment.

And yet, for some, this is not enough.  Rather than simply seek to rectify the disharmony in themselves, they seek to make a cause out of their issue and try and force their transsexuality down the throats of everyone who meets them.

This is deeply suspicious behaviour.  Although the issue is within themselves, they seek to change the world.  This suggest to me an attention-seeking personality which seeks to use transsexuality as a cause by which they may be given special treatment.  Special attention.  Special consideration.

In other words, they want to remain identifiably transsexual and force the world to invent new ways of dealing with them, simply to satisfy their ego and need for attention.  I find that dishonest and lacking in authenticity.  Just because someone is a transsexual, doesn't mean they're a good person or that their motivations are pure.  Thus, those who attack the notion of 'passing' are making a liar out of themselves when they say that transsexuality is simply disharmony between the gender identity of body and mind.  If that were true, they'd attack the disharmony, but they're not.  They're attacking the world for not suffering through the disharmony with them.

Most of the attacks on me in this thread are made by the unthinking or the defensive.  To me, it just highlights the weaknesses in their world-view.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 10:02:21 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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I don't agree with all of what you said <nor do I disagree with all of it either>, but that is a really good post Awareness.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 11:02:34 PM   
stellauk


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Being transgendered is a state of being, a condition, and in that there is nothing wrong with it. It's not an illness, it's not a dysfunction, just a difference.

Just like say autism, Asperger's or any one of a number of hereditary or genetic conditions.

Just like .. ahem, being male or female. Naturally born, complete, whole. This is who you are, this is how you were born.

Through simply being something which lives we have to procreate to survive. Sex is important, therefore so is gender, genitalia, and to some degree our genetic make up.

Generally speaking all the transgendered really want is to be able to resolve their issues and go about their lives on a par with everyone else. There isn't an area of your life that being transgendered doesn't affect, simply because it affects relationships - your relationship with yourself, and with other people.

It should be simple enough, a simple explanation that you're transgendered.

But it isn't. It isn't because some people focus on the issue and not the person who has the issue. Kind of like people who are disabled and have to move around in wheelchairs. Kind of like people who are mentally ill, the mentally handicapped, and so on.

It carries social stigma. People see you and they form two categories 'us' and 'them' and they are in this 'us' category and you're not.

This isn't so much in itself that great a problem. The problem is when people start demanding proof, or evidence. There is no evidence. Deal with it. We have to, why not you? If there was evidence it would make our lives so much easier, but there isn't. It relies on self-diagnosis, and as a result also on personal integrity and honesty with yourself.

This is where the problem lies. The accusation, unstated or not, that you're mentally ill, deluded, you have issues with people, that you're deceiving yourself, that you're trying to be someone who you're not. That you're kinky. That you're a bad person.

And yes, it gives you, the transgendered person an additional issue which you somehow have to deal with. It puts you on the defensive, constantly, and that in itself can be tiring, it can wear you down, and it can also distract you from the main issues. When you're put on the defensive you have three ways of responding - confront the issues and the prejudice, avoid, or ignore.

This is where stealth comes in, this is why people get defensive and go on the counter offensive, it's part of the entire coping strategy, where you discount and you compensate. In each case you're looking for that compromise between conforming to society's expectations and being true to yourself. Few who are not transgendered can see it, it's sometimes like walking on a tightrope.

You see even the physical aspect isn't that easy. This isn't man becomes woman, it's not just a case of growing a set of boobs, a dick, or replacing a penis with a vagina. Almost everything physical has to change, the entire body and the way it works, the homeostasis, hormones, metabolism and your lymphatic system. This carries significant risks, liver failure, blood clots, sudden death.

This preferably takes place in alignment with what's going on in your mind, and your life. Sure physical transition is important to some, but not as important as the ability to function adequately and happily in society. This is the benchmark, because it's what everybody else has to do.

This is why it's just not possible for a man to become a woman or vice versa. No doctor will agree to it, because of the significant risks involved in the physical aspects of the transition.

There's also a social hierarchy that some people buy into, due to the social engineering that we are all subject to, closely linked to social stigma, privilege, advantage and disadvantage.

This is also what pisses some people off. They see it as you're trying to gain an unfair advantage, or claiming entitlement to something you're not entitled to, such as a M2F in transition wanting to be treated as a female when they don't have the vagina. Some find this objectionable, others too, but not in the presence of the M2F.

The way round this is simple - simply broaden your definition of what female is. There's no threat, and if you wouldn't have anything to do with such a person, sleep with them or have a relationship that's okay. Most of us are cool with that. This comes within the parameters of not everybody has to like you or even embrace your reality. We just want you to make a special allowance in our case that's all. Doesn't need to change your own values or your life philosophy. Why? It removes the issue, the stigma and the conflict.

It's not really that much to ask when all is said and done, just to treat us for the people we are and to accept that we're different and not like you. It's not much different to the way you treat other people. Someone comes up to you speaking in broken English, it's hard to understand, so you make that little bit more effort to understand and communicate. Why then not do the same and accept that some of us need to function the way we present ourselves?

Why argue or challenge who we are as people? Shouldn't that be beyond all discussion?

Believe it or not we understand your confusion and discomfort but in reality it's a drop in the ocean compared with the discomfort and confusion that we are put through. It's chicken feed, just a small issue. It shouldn't really that be such a big issue to you.

Sure, I get people who go out of their way to point out that I have a gender issue, a mental problem, that I'm deceiving myself, deluded, and so on. I'm used to it, because it's happened that many times.

But to those that do this sort of thing, well whether they acknowledge it or not in choosing to bring into question my whole being through confrontation they're stepping into my territory and as with most people I will respond accordingly. Might not be pleasant, but hey, they made that decision to cross the boundaries, and so they take the consequences. It's not much different to what anyone else would do.

Generally speaking I just move on and walk away. Let go. There is no burden of proof. Just accept or don't accept. It's not that I'm afraid of confrontation, Lord knows I'm not, because that goes with everything else and part of the process is finding answers to some very difficult questions. But there's a way to go about it.

I'm actually generally ambivalent over whether society in general accepts it or not. Part of me feels that it would be better and nicer if this was to happen, but the realist in me thinks that it won't. I feel to demand so many changes is asking a lot from people in general, and if it were that possible then surely those changes would have taken place by now. Legal recognition would be helpful but in terms of the way people think, well it is as it is.

Some people will make the effort, some people won't. Changing society means changing people, and people are subject to human nature. Far better to seek the changes on a personal level, within yourself and within your life and leave the rest of society to work it out for itself.



_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

(in reply to hausboy)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 11:11:14 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
Quality!

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 11:48:58 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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I think there's a very big disconnect between "where we think society should be wrt to TG issues" and where society is today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
Being transgendered has got nothing to do with how someone looks, but who they are.


I find this extremely hard to believe - I'm not saying it's wrong (I'm on this thread to learn about TG issues from the experiences of TG peeps) but - I cannot square the idea that being a TG having nothing to do with looks and the huge amount of effort I perceive (perhaps wrongly) that TG peeps go to in order to look a certain way.

So, to me, it does seem a little disingenuous to claim that looks have nothing to do with it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Blaming nominal individuals in society and saying they're not sufficiently educated to deal with trans people is a cop-out. 



This is really, really important - and it's something I agree with very strongly. If you want to bring about change especially in broader society, you don't do it by clustering together and writing off people with contrary views as "simply wrong" or "stupid".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

People's responses are mostly instinctual and while we might enforce courtesy once our higher brain kicks into gear, you are never going to modify the human animal so their instinctual responses are going to vanish in a haze of gender neutrality.



Setting aside the fact that I disagree with the extent to which Awareness values/prioritises human/animal responses over higher brain responses, this is an important point.

Lord knows, I perceive myself as being pretty "hip" to social issues, issues of Gender, sexuality, feminism and the like. But I have to admit that my not-so-higher brain functions are still very much there. I was walking behind a beautiful woman only the other day - and (as per my gender programming) I'd already gone though the "would I fuck her test" (the male version, where "personality" and "sense of humour" don't typically factor very highly - if you want more details, feel free to ask). Damn, she was slinky, that's slinky with a capital "S" and a capital "linky".

Then she turned a corner, and I saw her face. First, she was at least 25 years older than I'd guessed from behind, second she had a gigantic nose. I almost cried out in pain. I'll admit that I did feel a little cheated.

I'm not pleased to acknowledge that I'm still influenced by the gender programming I received as a child, and also to a degree (though not as much as Awareness might claim) those basic functions that I've inherited from my stone-age forebears - But I am.

Appearance does matter in society. There's a very strong argument, that I support, that says it should not matter, but it does.

stella - I've really enjoyed your posts, and I hope you're not offended if I pick on you - Here's the truth... notwithstanding your wonderful personality and sense of humour, my immediate - lower brain - response to seeing your profile pic is "Dude in a wig". I'm not pleased that I have that response, but it would be dishonest of me to deny that I have it.

Then my higher brain kicks in... (along with my age and experience) and I recognise that there are so many other facets to your personality that your superficial appearance ought to be a trivial concern.

But even then - given the choice between two gender females, one all buff, slim, girlie, red-headed, medium sized breasts, in her late 20's and another in her 40's, lived-a-little, perhaps a little craggy then all other things being equal, the hottie has an advantage. The good news of course, is that I'm just old enough to have realised (actually that's not fair - age and wisdom have nothing to do with it - it's bitter experience that taught me) that the statistical likelihood of all the other things being equal really is low - I just don't have that much in common with 20 year old chicks. But my point is - even someone who self identifies as "hip to the issues" still - basically - has a preference for the stereotypical "hottie".

So there's a ton of change to be brought about, and it could be that Awareness is the last person who will be persuaded, and that change is going to take time.



_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to stellauk)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/15/2011 11:52:25 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
This is very true, but unfortunately many people, particularly men, don't see it this way. I think this kind of thinking is why less-than-attractive women get treated badly -- they aren't doing their job of being a physically pleasing female for the random male gaze.


Aww c'mon.... LillyBoPeep - I love your posts, I really do but... "particularly men"????? So less stereo-typically attractive women get looked after and defended by their more attractive sisters do they? Not bloody likely.

Women are every bit as prone to making superficial judgements as men are - and they very often do so.

Most men are utterly unaware of the trillion dollar industry that surrounds the stereotypes of female beauty. The fashion magazines are bought by women, and the competition over "looks and sexiness" is absolutely not solely about men, or their judgements and it's very unfair to characterise it as such.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 200
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