RE: The Transgender Thread (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 5:57:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

****NocturnalStalker. Really if you have a problem with transgendered people, why not choose to be neutral rather than offensive by "calling it the way you see it"? If someone called you a "fag" because you have long hair and they see guys with long hair as homosexuals, how would it make you feel? And more important would it be fair?


Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions.  Society should work to make the transsexual types be at peace with their original selves, not telling them that it is "okay" to go and change themselves overnight.  It's like saying, "You're right, you are a shitty guy.  Go grab some dice and roll a female instead." 

Because even if society does say to, "Do whatever you want" there's omission that once you do go through that you'll be ridiculed and looked at as a freak. 

And sorry but it doesn't add up that you're more inclined to kill yourself *before* the transformation as opposed to after it.  Especially if it is poorly done and makes you look terrible as most often do.  Logic tells me that they would be more susceptible to suicide when they realize that the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility.  Before the operation they're just guys or girls with psychological problems.  After the operation they're girls or guys with psychological problems and now widespread social issues. 


The sheer depth of your ignorance seems to be boundless.  Truly fascinating.

How many operation results have you actually seen....up close and personal...considering you've already said you won't even consider a friendship with a TG person because it might ruin your image?  Your facts are wrong. Your logic is flawed.  You're full of it.
And before you go accusing others here of having widespread social issues, I suggest you take a good, long look in the mirror (which I'm sure you do for hours on end anyway, seeing the love affair you seem to have with yourself).

I love reading Otters and Stella's posts--they are not only intelligent, mature and compassionate towards others, but they are far more sane than anything I've seen you type lately.  I don't cry any tears for myself...or for you...  and the support that I've received from folks on this forum (and on the other side) has been wonderful.



strawberryshake -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 6:05:36 PM)

@NS-You said"Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions."

Who is to determine right from wrong? Certainly you are not the authority.

"Sketchy stories and actions" .....Please clarify this.

And please answer my questions this time...You did not even attempt to answer the question in my last post.



strawberryshake -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 6:15:34 PM)

@ NS- You said" Logic tells me that they would be more susceptible to suicide when they realize that the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility."

That's a load of  BS. You are obviously uneducated about transgender issues and the transgender population. Though the transgender population has a unique set of obstacles to overcome, "the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility" is a load of crap.

I don't see how you are even comfortable speaking for the general population.

And you are clearly not the average person.



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 6:26:49 PM)

quote:

How many operation results have you actually seen....up close and personal


Through living in the city of Toronto, travelling around North America and spending time in places such as California and New York I'd say that I have seen enough to know that a lot of the people that perform the operation should be sued for making many of you look so eldritch.  If every transsexual person looked as "good" as some posters have linked pictures to, then there wouldn't be such glaring insults related to them.  Sadly, a few does not make up for a thousand.  When people think "transsexual" they think a person of a particular gender that really does not belong.  Why do they?  Because that is the image many of you portray unknowingly. 

quote:

Your facts are wrong. Your logic is flawed.  You're full of it.


Excellent points!  Oh wait...

quote:

And before you go accusing others here of having widespread social issues, I suggest you take a good, long look in the mirror (which I'm sure you do for hours on end anyway, seeing the love affair you seem to have with yourself).


At least I can look in the mirror.  Cheap shot me again, please.

quote:

I love reading Otters and Stella's posts-


I also enjoy reading posts by people I can hold some relation or form of fellowship with and not at all hold biased towards them as seems to be the trend here on CM. 



DarkSteven -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 6:28:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions.  Society should work to make the transsexual types be at peace with their original selves, not telling them that it is "okay" to go and change themselves overnight.  It's like saying, "You're right, you are a shitty guy.  Go grab some dice and roll a female instead." 

Because even if society does say to, "Do whatever you want" there's omission that once you do go through that you'll be ridiculed and looked at as a freak. 

And sorry but it doesn't add up that you're more inclined to kill yourself *before* the transformation as opposed to after it.  Especially if it is poorly done and makes you look terrible as most often do.  Logic tells me that they would be more susceptible to suicide when they realize that the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility.  Before the operation they're just guys or girls with psychological problems.  After the operation they're girls or guys with psychological problems and now widespread social issues. 



TG-ness is not a sexual thing.  It's when the brain and body are different genders.  TGs get no sexual kick, although CDs do.

No need to say that society should make people more comfortable with their born genders - it was tried and didn't work.  There was quite a bit of work done with aversion therapy to make TGs averse to their desired gender.  It didn't work, and resulted in a lot of frustrated people and several suicides.

MtF surgery is not an "overnight" thing.  It requires hormones and SRS, and I believe that doctors are required to make the prospective TG have counseling first.  Nobody wants a patient to undergo something this dramatic with no idea what to expect.  (I don't know squat about what's involved with FtM except for the hormones, but I'd be VERY shocked if they weren't required to do counseling just like MtFs.)

Um, it DOES in fact add up that the suicidal impulses are lessened by the transition.  The REASON for the impulses is the dissonance between the identified and the born gender, and obviously once the cause is gone, so are the impulses.

NS, I suggest you either get to know some TGs, or else quit trying to tell a bunch of them how they should be feeling and acting.  Being clueless is fine, but being clueless and acting like an authority really isn't.





NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 6:51:48 PM)

quote:

Who is to determine right from wrong? Certainly you are not the authority


I'm not saying I am the authority but if you really think it is "right" to want to be a member of the opposite sex then you have problems.  You've become the product of the flawed thought that we should all be wallflowers and bleeding hearts that sheds a tear for the hardships a group such as transsexuals endure.  Rather than work on fixing the problem, you all want to support it. 


quote:

"Sketchy stories and actions" .....Please clarify this.


What's there to clarify?  Ask one of the transsexuals here. 

quote:

That's a load of  BS. You are obviously uneducated about transgender issues and the transgender population. Though the transgender population has a unique set of obstacles to overcome, "the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility" is a load of crap.


Please feel free to prove me wrong then.  When you consider that as I have said before that friendships are founded on relating and being likeminded or finding common ground that you can tolerate the person you're going to find your genuine connections are spread a bit thin.  That is the sad reality of it.  You don't have to like it at all, but be aware of it and don't throw your weight around and scream "unfair." 

And no to some of you other people out there; working with a transgendered is not the same as being actual friends with one.  I can work with a transsexual but on the professional level it stays. 





hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 7:03:44 PM)

Hi Steven
You are correct.  I was holding off on this link...but well, what the hell.  http://www.wpath.org/

It used to be called the HBIGDA or the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association Standard of Care.   Certain guidelines are given to healthcare providers before surgery and hormone therapy.

My transition was a considerable time ago, but all of my providers adhered to the HBIGDA SOC.  I required a minimum of 6 months of therapy and GID screening by a therapist experienced with GID.  As it turns out, one of the members of the Executive Board of Directors is also a gender therapist where I live and my surgeon was also on the Board.

Therapy involves much more than just mental well-being, it included an assessment of my full history, substance abuse/recovery, a screening to ensure there were no underlying existing mental health issues that would impede, interfere or be contra-indicated for transition. My therapist also evaluated my home life, relationship with partner, family and workplace, finances, and determine what support systems I had in place. 
There used to be a cross-living requirement--that was eliminated. 

once determined to be an appropriate candidate for hormonal treatment, I had to be screened by a physician--again, I was fortunate to have a provider who was experienced with TG patients.  A full physical, bloodwork, lab series and evaluation of my health habits. (nutrition,exercise, smoking, drug/alcohol, etc)  My physician required a letter from my therapist, confirming I was cleared and my entire first year of injections had to be performed in his office, under his supervision. (no longer a requirement)

After being on hormonal therapy, I had to undergo a second series of psychological screenings and health screenings before I was cleared for surgery, and my surgeon required letters from both my physician and my therapist, verifying and detailing the appropriateness for surgery, my current health (physical and emotional) and I had to meet with the surgeon to "interview."

and yes, it's not one surgery--just as you said--for both men and women, it can be a long series of surgeries.  There are many more very good options (cosmetically and functionally) that didn't exist ten years ago, and ten times the number of skilled surgeons out there.  While in some cities (San Fran), there are health plans to cover the surgery and hormones, most insurances do not.  Surgeries often require cash up front.

So for many like myself, it required a few years of saving, plus extensive financing, and yes--before they wheel you into surgery, they ask you: Cash, check or charge?  It took me two years to save for my first one, and about five years to pay it off.  Worth every single penny--I love my results, even my physical therapist who was working on my shoulder/chest had no idea.

The surgeries are complex, expensive and often painful with long recovery times in some cases.  I'm glad I did it but wouldn't want to go through it again--it was pretty rough.



hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 7:17:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

How many operation results have you actually seen....up close and personal


Through living in the city of Toronto, travelling around North America and spending time in places such as California and New York I'd say that I have seen enough to know that a lot of the people that perform the operation should be sued for making many of you look so eldritch.  If every transsexual person looked as "good" as some posters have linked pictures to, then there wouldn't be such glaring insults related to them.  Sadly, a few does not make up for a thousand.  When people think "transsexual" they think a person of a particular gender that really does not belong.  Why do they?  Because that is the image many of you portray unknowingly. 

quote:

Your facts are wrong. Your logic is flawed.  You're full of it.


Excellent points!  Oh wait...

quote:

And before you go accusing others here of having widespread social issues, I suggest you take a good, long look in the mirror (which I'm sure you do for hours on end anyway, seeing the love affair you seem to have with yourself).


At least I can look in the mirror.  Cheap shot me again, please.




Facial surgery is not extremely common--of the 50 or so women in the group that meets locally, only 3 have had any type of facial surgery.  Eldritch?  Christ, how old are you? 12?  There wouldn't be "glaring insults related to them" if more people took the time to get educated and opened their closed little minds.

And I look in the mirror too.  Daily....when I shave.  No cheap shot there....I love how I look now....I look exactly the way I always imagined I'd look when I got older, and it's a great thing.

Oh, come off it. You completely hold biases and you've made that clear in this thread.   I hold biases too--I don't care for your attitudes towards Transgender people and my respect for you dwindles with each post.  (I know. I don't care either.) I have found a delightful fellowship of folks here on CM (I'm spending Thanksgiving with an entire household of folks from here who have opened their home and hearts to me)  and I hope you find the same.  I'm sure you can find plenty of people who share your views and you can create your own little fellowship.  good riddance.



strawberryshake -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 7:29:53 PM)

You've evaded each and every one of my questions by not answering any of them directly......again.

@NS-you said "What's there to clarify?  Ask one of the transsexuals here. "

I don't need to ask a transsexual about the "transsexual experience" because i am one and i have first hand experience.

Let's give this another shot...one at a time.

Who decides what is universally right from wrong?



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 8:35:47 PM)

quote:

TG-ness is not a sexual thing.


Male that wants to be female is not at all a sex-related thing.  What?

quote:

It's when the brain and body are different genders.


And you make this claim on something that needs to have more research done scientifically, are you not?

What I am tackling if you bothered to pay any attention at all is the social backlash a TG person experiences.  What they think or believe is something I will never know because I am not nor ever will be in that frame of mind.  I will wager a guess and say that many do not actually see themselves as having an issue and will thus, never admit to it period.  The problem is that there is not a large enough issue being made of it due to the amount of work it would likely take to actually create a breakthrough for any changes in behaviour.  How can you help those that do not want to be helped? 

To go by the quoted text though, their mind is supposedly telling them they are not what their mirror depicts.  Minds can tell people there is another person in their head, they look too fat when they are actually 80 lbs, and crowds of people will give them heart attacks.  If there is a desynch between brain and body then there should be steps to rectify this problem rather than indulge on it. 

quote:

Um, it DOES in fact add up that the suicidal impulses are lessened by the transition


Which is then dismantled when they find themselves unable to form relationships of significance with most normal people.  Humans are social creatures and when shunned by the majority, loneliness begins and depression follows soon after.  Look at the TGs attacking my opinion here: they are undoubtedly hurt and offended by my admitted intolerance to form a friendship of any sort with one of them.  I am not the first, and will not be the last.







DarkSteven -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 8:53:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Male that wants to be female is not at all a sex-related thing.  What?


Exactly.  It's not who they're attracted to, it's what gender they want to become.

quote:

quote:

It's when the brain and body are different genders.


And you make this claim on something that needs to have more research done scientifically, are you not?


I dunno.  I'm just passing along what I've read and heard TGs say.  I'm not sure what more research would prove. 
quote:



What I am tackling if you bothered to pay any attention at all is the social backlash a TG person experiences.  What they think or believe is something I will never know because I am not nor ever will be in that frame of mind.  I will wager a guess and say that many do not actually see themselves as having an issue and will thus, never admit to it period.  The problem is that there is not a large enough issue being made of it due to the amount of work it would likely take to actually create a breakthrough for any changes in behaviour.  How can you help those that do not want to be helped? 


You don't get it.  You see a person who looks like their born gender and assume they're happy and have loads of friends.  And then they transition and have no friends and are miserable.

Actually, the ONLY reason they transition is because of how miserable (suicidal in the cases I've known) they are prior to transition.  Why would anyone spend the money and go through all the stuff hausboy detailed otherwise?  Just the MtF SRS alone runs $25K.  It's a horrible, nasty process, and nobody would do it unless they were REALLY unhappy otherwise.

It is NOT as simple as changing behavior.  That was done with children who acted like the other gender, and it failed miserable (as in suicides).  Your suggestions were debunked decades ago - why are you telling what the one true way should be without even checking to see if your ideas have been tried before? 
quote:



To go by the quoted text though, their mind is supposedly telling them they are not what their mirror depicts.  Minds can tell people there is another person in their head, they look too fat when they are actually 80 lbs, and crowds of people will give them heart attacks.  If there is a desynch between brain and body then there should be steps to rectify this problem rather than indulge on it. 



You're trying to make GID equivalent to textbook insanity.  It's not.  And you are considering transitioning to be indulging a problem, rather than rectifying it.  The TGs themselves would consider transitioning to BE rectification.

quote:


quote:

Um, it DOES in fact add up that the suicidal impulses are lessened by the transition


Which is then dismantled when they find themselves unable to form relationships of significance with most normal people.  Humans are social creatures and when shunned by the majority, loneliness begins and depression follows soon after.  Look at the TGs attacking my opinion here: they are undoubtedly hurt and offended by my admitted intolerance to form a friendship of any sort with one of them.  I am not the first, and will not be the last.



You're making up your facts.  The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.  And feel free to explain to my sub that she will never form a lasting relationship, and she will laugh at you.  I know a few other TGs who have relationships, and some who do not.

I'm still not sure why you feel compelled to make up fantasies that you pass off as though they were painstakingly researched.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 9:23:10 PM)

Heather's choice for the
Sunny's Quote of the Day
goes to
SixMore2Go
<Welcome to the boards, BTW>
[sm=chug.gif][sm=chug.gif]
For this uniquely related personal bit of TMI regarding transgender issues:

So, when I comes back to me home town from wandering the world I'm at the local, and there's this big bird there, not one to stop the traffic but handsome enough, and she looked like she could handle a good tossing about the place, so I chats her up, and we ends up ... well right where I had hoped we would.

So there we are, in the middle of the preliminaries looking like we have a shot at the cup finals, when she stops and says "Connor, the one with the git sister! I knew I recognised you from someplace," And so out comes the whole bleeding story. And a right sad one it was at that, lots of pathos and dealing with brutish buggers. Well let me tell you, it was quite the shock to me, I mean I used to play ball with Jimmie, but now he's Janie and is playing with me very own balls. Well Conn, says I to meself, how are you going to plow this field. I looked at her, and all the bits I fancy on a bird were in the right places. So I plowed that field. More than a few times, I mean what's a fellow to do, her hair was black and her eyes was blue.

It's like my old Grandda, bless his soul, used to say: "If it talks like an Englishman and thinks like an Englishman, then it can die like an Englishman" Oh aye, I knows that's a little violent, but we can get like that when we're sober, and my old Grandda was a bloodthirsty old bugger who didn't much like Englishmen, but its to the point.

So power to you trans types and your whole switcheroo, God loves you, and I do to ... well unless you're from Cork, of course, nobody likes you then.



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 9:45:25 PM)

quote:

Exactly.  It's not who they're attracted to, it's what gender they want to become.


Which is... sex. 

quote:

I dunno.  I'm just passing along what I've read and heard TGs say.  I'm not sure what more research would prove.


Really now, if this is the case why should myself or anyone else that disagrees with your viewpoint bother arguing with you?  Your opinions are secondhand as you said yourself.  Of course if I hear what a TG has to say they'll say something to better suit themselves.  Research proven by science would prove that what you just said there was true and not speculation/inconclusive.

quote:

You don't get it.  You see a person who looks like their born gender and assume they're happy and have loads of friends.  And then they transition and have no friends and are miserable.


Now you're putting words in my mouth.  I never directly stated a TG person would have no friends/constantly miserable but I simply challenged the theory that Hausboy proposed about an earlier scenario where someone she knew committed suicide due to not making the switch over.  So by that same token, are we to assume every person that does not make the switch will kill themselves solely based on that factor?  I find it difficult to believe that through all of history when such surgeries were not around that not one person that had this mentality found themselves hanging off a tree limb. 

quote:

It's a horrible, nasty process, and nobody would do it unless they were REALLY unhappy otherwise.


Which says a lot about their mental health and why there should be an effort put forth to make these people able to actually handle seeing themselves in the mirror everyday as their biological sex.  Riddle me this: what happens if someone cannot afford this all?  Are we to just ignore them?  Going off your words, they will kill themselves because they can't deal being trapped in the wrong body or so they think it is.  In your next lines below this you say, "one true way" which I find cute because it looks to me what you're telling me is: "surgery will fix it all."  So if someone isn't wealthy enough to put down the money, they are screwed and should simply be ignored rather than searching for alternative means to eliminate this problem so that such extreme measures need to not be taken. 

quote:

And you are considering transitioning to be indulging a problem, rather than rectifying it.  The TGs themselves would consider transitioning to BE rectification


Then I strongly disagree with them and hope that they can one day see their need for aesthetics as a poor and hazardous solution as I pointed out in your flawed argument above.

quote:

You're making up your facts.  The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.  And feel free to explain to my sub that she will never form a lasting relationship, and she will laugh at you.  I know a few other TGs who have relationships, and some who do not.


First off, you cannot say, "universally" because again, a few does not speak for all.  When they got the surgery were they all happy to have done it?  I bet they were.  Did they find it harder to get people to accept them as they were and treat them appropriately?  I will wager my car on that.  It is all just simple logic and understanding of how people work.  If a man feels like a woman, but is still a man, then those around him will not be aware of that and treat him normally.  If that same man gets surgery and becomes a woman, and then goes out in public then those around him will be looking at him like he is an elephant in the room.  They are even more prone because if they seek to be accepted by the general population then they are in for a very rude awakening. 

You stated your example with your submissive so let me relay to you when earlier this year (I believe) a transgendered woman was brutally assaulted by two females at a McDonald's in Baltimore, Maryland.  While this is a very extreme case, it is the harsh and cold reality that you, me and your friend live in.




crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 11:26:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

Exactly.  It's not who they're attracted to, it's what gender they want to become.


Which is... sex. 


Are you aware that "Gender" and "Sex" are often used with two very distinct meanings? Sex relating to genetics, gender to self-perception?

quote:




quote:

You're making up your facts.  The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.  And feel free to explain to my sub that she will never form a lasting relationship, and she will laugh at you.  I know a few other TGs who have relationships, and some who do not.


First off, you cannot say, "universally" because again, a few does not speak for all. 


Your English comprehension is flawed. The claim wasn't "all TGs universally say" it was "the few TGs I have known, universally say"



crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 11:31:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

****NocturnalStalker. Really if you have a problem with transgendered people, why not choose to be neutral rather than offensive by "calling it the way you see it"? If someone called you a "fag" because you have long hair and they see guys with long hair as homosexuals, how would it make you feel? And more important would it be fair?


Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions. 


Where do you stand on homosexuality - Is this a "sexual abnormality"?



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/16/2011 11:45:35 PM)

quote:

Are you aware that "Gender" and "Sex" are often used with two very distinct meanings? Sex relating to genetics, gender to self-perception?


From your friend and mine, the Dictionary:

"
2. sex: the feminine gender."


quote:

Your English comprehension is flawed. The claim wasn't "all TGs universally say" it was "the few TGs I have known, universally say"


And when you say, "universally" you are speaking for all TGs everywhere.  Universal means...
"1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience. 2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure. 3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service. 4. used or understood by all: a universal language. 5. present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas."

quote:

Where do you stand on homosexuality - Is this a "sexual abnormality"?


Well gee Crazyml, let me wonder if two guys or girls having sex with one another deviates from the standard that is heterosexual.




crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/17/2011 12:08:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

Are you aware that "Gender" and "Sex" are often used with two very distinct meanings? Sex relating to genetics, gender to self-perception?


From your friend and mine, the Dictionary:

"
2. sex: the feminine gender."



You didn't answer the question. I didn't make any claim about the dictionary definition of gender. However, implicit in my question to you was the fact that Gender and Sex are often used with two very distinct meanings - Sex relating to genetics, gender to self-perception.

See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender - "Depending on the context, the discriminating characteristics vary from sex to social role to gender identity."

If you're unable to grasp the distinction between genetic sex and gender identity, I'd urge you to bow out of this thread.



quote:




quote:

Your English comprehension is flawed. The claim wasn't "all TGs universally say" it was "the few TGs I have known, universally say"


And when you say, "universally" you are speaking for all TGs everywhere.  Universal means...
"1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience. 2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure. 3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service. 4. used or understood by all: a universal language. 5. present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas."


Let me try to help you clear up your confusion.

Jane has ten apples, each of the ten apples is a red apple. All of Jane's apples are red. That isn't to say that all apples are red, but that all of Jane's apples are red.

Janes apples are universally red. But that isn't suggesting for a moment that all apples are universally red.

quote:



quote:

Where do you stand on homosexuality - Is this a "sexual abnormality"?


Well gee Crazyml, let me wonder if two guys or girls having sex with one another deviates from the standard that is heterosexual.




So is it your position that homosexuality is a mental illness?



NocturnalStalker -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/17/2011 1:42:30 AM)

quote:

Let me try to help you clear up your confusion.

Jane has ten apples, each of the ten apples is a red apple. All of Jane's apples are red. That isn't to say that all apples are red, but that all of Jane's apples are red.

Janes apples are universally red. But that isn't suggesting for a moment that all apples are universally red.


I think it is you that is confused.  When you use the term, "universal" you are applying it to everything related to what you're applying "universal" to.  What DarkSteven was saying was this...

My transgendered friend was sad as a man.
My transgendered friend was happier after surgery to become a female.
All transsexuals are happy after surgery. 

This was all due to tossing in the word, "universally."  He was going on about myself "making up facts" too.  What a shame.

quote:

So is it your position that homosexuality is a mental illness?


It is in my belief that homosexuality is abnormal. 

Now are you going to attack the argument I presented or are you going to attempt and play semantics some more? 


quote:

Your brain is telling you that you feel like a female?  My brain tells me I should be king of the world.  I'm not though, and despite the surgery done, you're a guy still.  Only now you're a guy who made himself look like a girl. 


This is my very first post in the thread that clearly shows the understanding of gender identity/genetic sex.  You're trying to find holes that have already been filled.






crazyml -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/17/2011 2:26:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

quote:

Let me try to help you clear up your confusion.

Jane has ten apples, each of the ten apples is a red apple. All of Jane's apples are red. That isn't to say that all apples are red, but that all of Jane's apples are red.

Janes apples are universally red. But that isn't suggesting for a moment that all apples are universally red.


I think it is you that is confused.  When you use the term, "universal" you are applying it to everything related to what you're applying "universal" to.  What DarkSteven was saying was this...

My transgendered friend was sad as a man.
My transgendered friend was happier after surgery to become a female.
All transsexuals are happy after surgery. 

This was all due to tossing in the word, "universally."  He was going on about myself "making up facts" too.  What a shame.



I'm still genuinely keen to help you with your confusion.

What DarkSteven said was this

quote:

" The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now. "


So he defined a set - "The few TGs I have known"

That, in the context of his sentence, is the universe - it represents the whole set.

He is saying that every one of those say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now. Within that set - they say, universally, that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.

So when you say that the conclusion must be -
quote:


My transgendered friend was sad as a man.
My transgendered friend was happier after surgery to become a female.
All transsexuals are happy after surgery. 


You're simply wrong.

What he was actually saying was...


quote:

The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.


Now, the way I've come to that conclusion is down to the fact that that is actually what he said!

Now... He qualified the statement by defining the set "The Few TGs I have known". I don't think he's extrapolating that to imply that every TG on the planet or in the wider universe was miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now, but I think he's making and argument that, given his experience, he'd expect a significant number of TGs from the general population to feel the same.

And that's not unreasonable - Of course, it would be more telling if he'd sampled 10,000, but he acknowledges the size of his sample, so I think you're being disingenuous in drawing the inference you do.


Does that help at all?
quote:





quote:

So is it your position that homosexuality is a mental illness?


It is in my belief that homosexuality is abnormal. 

Now are you going to attack the argument I presented or are you going to attempt and play semantics some more? 


I've no intention of attacking your argument, I'm happy to debate it with you however!

I'm not playing semantics at all, I'm actually trying to understand your position, with reference to the claims I think you're making about the mental health of people who are transgendered.

You seem to have defined anything that is "abnormal" as indicative of mental illness.

Since you define homosexuality as "abnormal" I simply wanted to ask whether you regarded homosexuality as a mental illness.

I'm quite sure that the question -

quote:

So is it your position that homosexuality is a mental illness?


was clear enough. But, oddly, you seem to be avoiding it.



quote:


quote:

Your brain is telling you that you feel like a female?  My brain tells me I should be king of the world.  I'm not though, and despite the surgery done, you're a guy still.  Only now you're a guy who made himself look like a girl. 


This is my very first post in the thread that clearly shows the understanding of gender identity/genetic sex.  You're trying to find holes that have already been filled.




Yes, I was wondering about that - So I suppose the only conclusion is that your subsequent conflation of the two ideas is simply a deliberate attempt to troll.



DarkSteven -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/17/2011 3:22:16 AM)

NS, there are two kinds of data.  The first, and more prized, is hard data - where a system was put in place to deliberately gather it, through surveys or instrumentation.  The second, not as good but still quite useful, is anecdotal data, just what people remember or talking with people who have experienced something.

You are entirely correct to criticize my data as being anecdotal and not high quality. That said, yours is entirely conjectural and not able to stand up to anything.

With that said... Heather, I think you may have a point regarding the trolling.



Page: <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875