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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/18/2011 11:38:30 PM   
SixMore2Go


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You see, now here's more of that lack of brightness. I expressed me opinion and you asked what has led me to that opinion, so I tells you. And then you come back and dispute it? I say you were being daft and so you repeat exactly what you said that I said was daft in order to prove you weren't daft? Man, that's about as daft as it gets, talking with you is like talking to a bloody Bulgar.

< Message edited by SixMore2Go -- 11/18/2011 11:39:37 PM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 12:43:55 AM   
NocturnalStalker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SixMore2Go

You see, now here's more of that lack of brightness. I expressed me opinion and you asked what has led me to that opinion, so I tells you. And then you come back and dispute it? I say you were being daft and so you repeat exactly what you said that I said was daft in order to prove you weren't daft? Man, that's about as daft as it gets, talking with you is like talking to a bloody Bulgar.


Welcome to Arguing 101.  You always attack how they got to that conclusion, not the conclusion itself. 

Here's the point: everything you said right there redirected back to me in a personal attack or dismissive way.  In your first paragraph it was "utter drivel."  In your second you saw me as being egotistical and flat-out were wrong in what I spoke (and hilariously, this is after you attempted to pull out the "context" card on me).  The third was just absolute baulderdash with you putting words in my mouth/painting me to be the villain.

All you had to do was cut the fluff and simply type the last paragraph up. 




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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 1:32:22 AM   
SixMore2Go


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quote:

Welcome to Arguing 101.  You always attack how they got to that conclusion, not the conclusion itself. 
Welcome to reality 101. We're not arguing.

Its me opinion, its not open to debate. You're never going to change me opinion that you're a daft bugger by continuing to be a daft bugger. I'm not arguing with you, I'm not trying to convince you or any one of a thing. I said you weren't too bright, you asked why, and I, being a kind hearted fellow with a weak spot for the soft of mind explained it to you. And then you go on to further prove me contention by attempting to argue with me about it. Well, you can't argue it, you can't win. You're by definition wrong if you oppose it because those are my reasons, and that is indisputable. I'm not contending that you are right, wrong, or any other thing, I am telling what gives me the impression you're not sailing with a full load of canvas.

Now you may indeed think my reasons are insufficient for the conclusion I've drawn. And if that be the case, and you're even half-way intelligent, you simply make a little mental note "That drunken Irish bum's opinion of meself is based on twaddle, so its nothing to concern meself about".

What you don't do, is argue with me about it, trying to prove me wrong. That's just pointless, it can't be done other than by actions which counter the impressions made by previous actions.

And how daft can you be, complaining I made an ad hominum. Of course I bloody did, that's what I'm doing. I'm telling what a bloody great git I think you are, now, how in God's name do you propose I do that other than by making an ad hominum. We're not discussing your ideas, we're discussing my impression of your intelligence.

Now, what you did was stupid. And whether your points are valid or no is of no consequence, it was the way you replied that was none too bright.. And its even less so to reply to me the way you have.

There now, you have asked a question, and I have answered it, hopefully you're satisfied, but if not, well then that's just too bloody bad for you, now isn't it?.

< Message edited by SixMore2Go -- 11/19/2011 1:57:28 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 1:40:05 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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Nice one. We must do beers sometime.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:03:05 AM   
SixMore2Go


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What? Drink with an Englishman?

Well sure, as long as you're buying and we do it in Majorca so as nobody will remember. I have a reputation to uphold, don't you know?

< Message edited by SixMore2Go -- 11/19/2011 2:04:02 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:09:52 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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Look just wear a hood to save embarrassment M'ok
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixMore2Go

What? Drink with an Englishman?

Well sure, as long as you're buying and we do it in Majorca so as nobody will remember. I have a reputation to uphold, don't you know?



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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:15:10 AM   
SixMore2Go


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Well bugger. I was hoping for a free ticket to Majorca, I'd like to see it someday.

< Message edited by SixMore2Go -- 11/19/2011 2:16:02 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:20:29 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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In the name of all that is holy why?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixMore2Go

Well bugger. I was hoping for a free ticket to Majorca, I'd like to see it someday.



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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:23:49 AM   
SixMore2Go


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Because I've been there at least a dozen times and I don't remember a thing.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:33:43 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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& you think you would drinking with me?
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixMore2Go

Because I've been there at least a dozen times and I don't remember a thing.



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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:46:50 AM   
Awareness


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  It's amazing how that little speech pattern of yours disappears when you're not trying to play to the peanut gallery.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 2:56:08 AM   
Awareness


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  I really wouldn't put too much stock in your survey at all Heather - it's pretty much a lock that when confronted with an attractive woman asking them a survey question, most men will answer in the way they think will get them pussy - even if the prospect of said pussy is a long shot.

It's not universal of course, but it's sufficiently strong to bias the hell out of your results.  Next time, send an ugly chick or a bloke to ask your questions.

ArPig's contention that your results are real and NS's are blatantly false is simply being what the literature refers to as "a weak-minded, pathetic old fucker making a damn fool of himself over a slip of a girl."  Frankly, I think it far more likely you guys simply made this shit up.

I'd also point out that none of you are researchers and therefore none of you know how to construct questions carefully enough to avoid the various psychological biases which rumble around in the human mind on a daily basis.


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 4:01:26 AM   
ValerieKeefe


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*Eyes begin flitting over 17 pages of cis people talking about trans people*

I'm gonna go get some coffee since the liquor store's closed.

For what it's worth, I'm happily non-operative. Estrogen has done more than enough to the little girl.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 4:31:01 AM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

*Eyes begin flitting over 17 pages of cis people talking about trans people*


You should read instead of flit. You missed the posts by those who are trans.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 5:21:10 AM   
crazyml


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Yep, the bias that might be introduced as a result of the questions being asked by a hawt chick was discussed the last time Heather and the girls conducted a survey. That said - Heather's results correlate a lot more closely with the larger studies that have been conducted. I'm on my phone so linking here is beyond me, but I did link to a broader academic study in an earlier post.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 8:26:48 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

ArPig's contention that your results are real and NS's are blatantly false is simply being what the literature refers to as "a weak-minded, pathetic old fucker making a damn fool of himself over a slip of a girl."
And your remarks here are what literature refers to as a weak-minded, pathetic old fucker making a fool of himself by making shit up...I never said a thing about Heather's results one way or another.

Though as crazyml has pointed out, Heather and the girls have a track record of presenting results that don't confirm their own positions, let alone to such a ridiculously overwhelming degree, which gives them more credibility in my mind.


< Message edited by Arpig -- 11/19/2011 8:30:44 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 8:56:00 AM   
xssve


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There is little point in attacking NS, it won't alter the results of his survey, which I'm comfortable with as indicative of the opinions of the people he surveyed - it wasn't a nationwide survey, it was a survey of a specific geographic location.

Personally, the metric that would concern me is violence against transgendered people, as it not only indicates underlying attitudes, but willingness and how comfortable people feel acting out on them violently, i.e., to what extent they feel violence against the transgendered is "justifiable".

If it's going up, which this article at least suggests, then there is the possibility that it actually reflects a less hostile attitude towards the transgendered, and this increase in violence is a reaction formation to it, i.e., increased violence from a small but hardcore group of transgender haters, an act of desperation, or it could reflect and increase in overall hostility, but my gut tells me it's the former, given that there are more openly transgendered people walking around, and anecdotally at least, I haven't seen a lot of public overreaction to that.

Are there any transgendered people on television? I think there was one on some show, can't remember the name, but I don't recall any Murphy Brown type hysteria about it, which would indicate a more philosophical attitude among the general public - and hardcore haters might well kick it up a notch if they think their concerns are being ignored or marginalized.

So, not good news, but possibly a silver lining.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 9:00:16 AM   
PolyDommesgirl


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If I may, I would like to take a moment to answer a question/statement brought to this thread earlier.  This will be quite lengthy as such, not everyone will have the patience to read all of it.

The question/statement is:

I seriously doubt though that someone born with that mind-set/desire to be the opposite sex would find it impossible to cope and find a happy balance without running the risk of finding themselves ostracized by those around them.

My polite rebuttal:

When I first started to attend school is when the gender issues first started becoming apparent to me. I was naturally was drawn to the things that girls were doing and saying. But school teachers kept pulling me away from those activities and pushing me to be with boys.

Also noteworthy, this act of society pushing me to do something I did not want to do, is likely when my anger issues initially started. I know I still easily display hostility, I recognize I still need to improve, but trust me when I say, I am doing so much better.

Later, even my peers began judging me by gender actions and gender designation.

As early as 9 years old, I was being called gay, a fag, a fairy, a princess, and many more names hardly worth mentioning. From that time until today I have been assaulted at least once every two years for being me.

I was 10 years old when I first contemplated suicide because of the peer pressures. I contemplated suicide on a regular bases there after. I had a knife in my hand and at my wrist on 5 different occasions.

The sport minded boys saw the effeminate boy and associated my feminine traits with weakness. Girls saw the kind and loving best friend. But did not want to date me.

Imagine being 10 years old, and experiencing loneliness and depression, because of things you cannot control.

Peer pressure to conform, actually had an opposite effect, I become non social and at times anti social.

There were two things that prevented me from acting on suicide thoughts. The first was my father being in the military. This is significant because we moved frequently. I was never at one place or one school long enough to feel totally beaten down. The second thing was, the close relationship I had with my grandmother and the fact she was my home base. She kept me grounded. I suspect she new I was having social problems. But she never asked what or why. She was the type of woman that could give you a hug and the worlds problems disappeared. (R.I.P. Grandma, I love you and I miss you)

I was 19, when I was diagnosed with gender disphorea. My diagnosis was a double edge sword. I knew the problem, but did not have any family or monetary support to act.

For the next 14 years I tried to be a man. But part of my problem was I did not learn the manly social skills many of my peers did during my teens. In fact I had learned very little social skills.

As an adult, I struggled with my coworkers. I found it easier to quite jobs rather than deal with the workplace politics. In 14 years I had 14 different jobs.

During the same 14 year period, I tried to be a husband and father. I also toke Paxil, to numb the world around me. In 2004 I lost my best friend & wife and daughter.

In 2007, I toke steps to perform an orchiectomy. It was painful but successful. I made a quick healthy recovery. (For legal reasons, please do not ask me how. Google can show you at least 20 different methods)

In 2008, I found out the Government of my province had re-listed SRS.

I have been following the steps as required to be approved. I am near the end of the process. I start hormones soon and my final surgeries are slated for this coming summer.

Since 2008, I have been self employed. People trust me for my Video and Editing skills and not my social skills. I think many people expect artisans to be a little eccentric which has worked in my favor. My bills are paid and there is food on the table. And in conjuction with my choice to live simply, I am living very comfortably.

I am almost 40, I did find it nearly impossible to cope at many different times of my life to find a happy balance. I was ostracized in combination of my own actions and by those around me.

Tragically, despite reading numerous books, such as “How to win friends and influence people“, and taking many courses, I still display socially inept behaviors.

Since 2007, I no longer take anti-depressants.

Since 2008 I have experienced more joy and happiness then I have in the last 35 years.

If fewer people placed such importance on gender issues in our society, likely I could have adapted. But the realty is, we live in a consumerist society and gender and sex play a vital and subconscious role for everything.

When you wake in the morning, do you use a men's razor or a women's razor. Honestly it is just a razor, does it really matter what color it is?  As a man, would you be bold enough to have a pink razor and a can of pink shaving cream in your bathroom. If you could do it, what would a potential girlfriend think if she saw it in there? What would you wife say? (Tomboys are social acceptable, so I don't have a question for the women)

I once had a bottle of Yves Vanilla scented  hand cream on my kitchen counter and my brother called me gay. Gay? Really, because I don't want dry hands?

Gender and the perception of gender is the foundation of our consumerist society.

When you are comfortable with your gender, you likely don't think about it. But when you are not, every minute of everyday becomes an immense hurdle. Imagine thinking, if I take possession of product XYZ, what will the people around me think, a multitude of times a day.

It is easy to say, don't worry about it.

But, there was one time I chose not to worry about it and I lost a $60,000/yr job.

There was another time and I lost a beautiful girlfriend.

The list goes on, and on, and on, and on.

The day society stops thinking about gender, will be the day I can stop thinking about gender.

Thank you reading my story. I trust it gives you some insight to how some others may feel.

< Message edited by PolyDommesgirl -- 11/19/2011 9:46:36 AM >


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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 9:06:09 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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PolyDommesgirl, that was a fantabulous post.

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RE: The Transgender Thread - 11/19/2011 9:06:20 AM   
Cherylmazana


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This whole thread has got me deeply disturbed, simply because of the constant attacks on Nocturnal because his views do not sync with the majority in this thread.

His views are constant with the results I have gotten from asking the men I know at work, in fact most said that if a transsexual m/f had sex with them and then afterwards said they had once been a man that “man” would then end up in hospital.

That is the reality most places, that’s why transsexuals get beaten up or killed and you can’t say they don’t because I am not biased and I remember other forums and threads talking about the dangers transgendered people face.

Most people are not comfortable enough to want to be friends with someone who doesn’t fit in very well. And the transgendered that I met certainly didn’t fit in very well because they had such huge psychological problems from being transgendered. They thought the world was out to get them, but then again they had good reason for that paranoia because the evidence was with them on that issue.

Then added to that the social stigma of being friends with “one of those” and it’s hard for most to accept transgendered people as friends or lovers.

That is the hard reality that transgendered people face, ignoring it won’t make it go away, wishing for that perfect utopia where everyone is enlightened won’t make it happen any more than wishing for it won’t make me a big time lottery winner.

Living places with a high gay or transsexual community or more open to change and new ideas places like university based cities may make it easier but in the average town there are biased views not enlightened ones.

I live in a country where members of the BMP were voted into office. For those of you who don’t know what the BMP is basically it’s the Nazi party without the swastika but still with the idea that anyone “not us” should be kicked out of the country or killed if at all possible.

Daily I work with racists, homophobes, football hooligans who quite happily believe putting the boot in is justified because you support the wrong team, and every other type of bigot going and all of it is considered acceptable, not legal or sociably acceptable but amongst “ok with friends”. And that’s the difference, people will say things in private and with friends they will deny to your face. At least Nocturnal is open and honest unlike most others.

Mazana


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